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Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by ashtonkem on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @08:00PM (#23992889)
Companies regularly use this trick to get away with crimes. They might explicitly forbid something illegal, not setup the actual guard rails that would prevent it, and then give employees every single possible incentive to break the rules. The moment they're caught they can act shocked, shocked, to discover that gambling was going on in this establishment, and then throw the line level workers under the bus.

This is exactly what Wells Fargo to get away with opening fraudulent accounts in their customers names.

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by wiredone on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @08:18PM (#23993010)
I know of many ex amazon employee anecdotes where people were “taken in the night” (didn’t have a job in the morning), and had their credentials and their teams credentials rotated due to a customer or seller data access overstep.

As with most conspiracies the facts don’t add up super well in this case for Amazon - their whole company is based on trust. The cost of losing it would be huge, so they’d be super driven to stamp it out.

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by alasdair_ on Thursday July 30, 2020 @05:25AM (#23996147)
“ their whole company is based on trust. The cost of losing it would be huge, so they’d be super driven to stamp it out.”

This was the exact argument put forth by defenders of Goldman Sachs when it was alleged they were screwing over their own customers in the financial crisis.

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday July 30, 2020 @07:22AM (#23996850)
On the other hand, now people don't trust them and their stock is below where it was in 2007, compared to the market index which is at more than double that.
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by francisofascii on Thursday July 30, 2020 @09:02AM (#23997597)
All bank stocks are down right now. When comparing Goldman, it would be better to use a bank index ETF fund like XLF rather than the overall market.
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday July 30, 2020 @04:26PM (#24002487)
You could argue that it's because Goldman destroyed the public trust in the entire industry. How many people who used to just blindly give their money to investment banks are now paying enough attention to their performance relative to index ETFs to find them lacking?
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by concernedctzn on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @08:58PM (#23993250)
well, they already lost everyone's trust for allowing the sale of low quality knock offs so who's to say we won't find out about some major privacy violations in the coming years?
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by whyenot on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @09:40PM (#23993440)
Really? Search online for "trust amazon poll" and look at the results. People appear to have an overwhelmingly favorable opinion of Amazon.

For example, look at The Verge Tech Survey 2020. 91% of those surveyed had a favorable opinion of the company, and 70% felt they had a positive impact on society. Most of the other polls have similar results.

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by hevelvarik on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @10:17PM (#23993721)
Trust is too general a term to be very useful. I trust that amazon will get me my order swiftly, and that if it gets lost in transit or stolen from my front door, I will be made whole without any fuss. That is huge for them as a retailer. At the same time there are entire categories of products that I simply wont ever buy from them because I do not trust that the product is legit.
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by Lio on Thursday July 30, 2020 @01:45AM (#23995062)
I trust Amazon to send me a branded SD card or Apple charing cable on time.

I don’t trust Amazon to ship genuine to specification SD cards or original Apple power cables due to the commingling stock issue.

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by ashtonkem on Thursday July 30, 2020 @04:02AM (#23995731)
That’s consumer trust, which is certainly high. I’d be interested in how much companies trust amazon, that number might be very different. Both groups can have wildly different experiences with the same company, and there are a lot more consumers than there are companies ready to sell on amazon.

The original question here was not “does amazon provide a bad service to consumers”, but rather “does amazon abuse their data to compete unfairly”. Only companies would know that, end consumers won’t know why the amazon basics product exits, only if it arrives on time.

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by Nasrudith on Thursday July 30, 2020 @01:59PM (#24001147)
Company trust doesn't mean all that much given conflict of interest. Technically you can translate any antitrust claim regardless of merit as "Competitors say 'main rival's success unfair, should be punished'".

Realpolitik of sorts often matters far more than any trust at the company level - does going on your own or letting someone else take a cut pay off better? Would they get massively punished if they failed to carry through and burned your company?

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by nindalf on Thursday July 30, 2020 @03:51AM (#23995684)
> they already lost everyone's trust

Love the completely unfounded assertion. Based on what? "Top voted comments on HN say they've lost trust in Amazon, so everyone in the world must be the same"?

Let's look at actual data shall we? Turns out surveys indicate that "Amazon is the second most trusted institution in the United States, behind the military" (https://www.vox.com/the-goods/2018/10/25/18022956/amazon-tru...). Many other surveys indicate something similar.

If you have data that indicates otherwise, please do share.

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by ctvo on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @10:23PM (#23993766)
It certainly feels that way if your opinion was mostly from the comments section of HN. In the real world? Not so much.
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by ars on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @11:43PM (#23994394)
People forgive them for that because it's so easy to return, and they are so quick to give a refund/make things right.

Also, I don't think as a percentage of purchases that they are as common as people think - the stories get lots of attention, but the regular shopping is ignored.

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by cryptica on Thursday July 30, 2020 @07:49AM (#23997013)
This is a poor argument. Just because they get punished sometimes, doesn't mean it's the norm. Even if Jeff Bezos was a perfectly decent, well-meaning guy, intention is not enough.

If a person keeps stealing from other people, do we just slap them with a fine each time they get caught and let them continue operating in society? No! They go to jail! We make sure they can't continue the crime! Because otherwise, the crime can become highly profitable; allowing any entity to profit from crime is simply incompatible with being a participant in a civilized society - If you let one entity get away with it repeatedly, soon enough, it becomes a viable business model and everyone will be doing it and society will implode.

If he and his shareholders are unwilling or unable to personally take responsibility for every single transgression committed by Amazon, then this company is unfit to exist within our society.

I think that corporate personhood is the biggest problem of our time and is a misnomer because not only do corporations have all the rights that people have, they actually have more rights! I don't have the right to influence politicians in Washington! I don't have the right to consistently get away with crimes with only a fine! I don't have the right to evade taxes by claiming that I live in a different country than where I actually live!

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by run414 on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @09:58PM (#23993585)
When I worked at Amazon, I personally knew someone who put in their two-weeks notice, and the next day they found out they were fired when their badge didn't work. From anecdotes I've heard, this happens if Amazon suspects a person is leaving to join a competitor. Amazon is very serious about protecting their data.
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by Xixi on Thursday July 30, 2020 @02:37AM (#23995309)
In France the standard notice for engineers is three months, and goes both way. It's not unheard of for a corporation to pay the three months notice when firing someone, without the employee actually coming in anymore, precisely to avoid theft, or the moral hazard towards other employees.

But what's the rational the other way around? When an employee resigns, they obviously know that they are resigning before actually handling in their resignation. If they wanted to leave with something, surely they would have already stolen it? Or it's just an expectation of lazyness, in case nothing has been stolen yet?

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by lb1lf on Thursday July 30, 2020 @06:24AM (#23996496)
It is basically CYA.

If the employee should later indeed be found to have taken IP or other assets during their last weeks at work, it would reflect poorly on whomever decided they should work during the resignation period.

Hence, you let them go immediately, so you can shrug and say 'well, we did what we could' in case of problems down the road.

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by Lio on Thursday July 30, 2020 @01:50AM (#23995082)
In the UK they would have to put the person on “gardening leave”.

Firing in this way when someone’s done nothing wrong would be constructive dismissal and prohibited by law.

The fact that Amazon treats their resigning employees in this way doesn’t increase my trust in them.

It actually just makes them look viscous and petty.

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by wil421 on Thursday July 30, 2020 @07:29AM (#23996897)
Many companies do the same thing. The employee isn’t fired they are just asked not to return for the 2 weeks. I’ve never heard of the employer not paying out the 2 weeks.
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by KptMarchewa on Thursday July 30, 2020 @07:25AM (#23996872)
What's the difference between this and gardening leave? Does Amazon not pay for those two weeks or what?
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by Lio on Thursday July 30, 2020 @07:55AM (#23997056)
Apart from whether Amazon are paying the two weeks notice that they morally owe, one obvious difference would be if your next employer asks have you ever been terminated from a previous position.

Who would want to be placed in the position of saying yes I was fired because I was suspected of being a security risk?

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by xyzzy_plugh on Thursday July 30, 2020 @09:51AM (#23998091)
Does anyone ever answer this question truthfully? I generally assume not. The only way to verify this is through a back channel (AIUI corps generally won't disclose the reason due to libel liability), unless the employee really screwed up and didn't sign a separation agreement, which (again AIUI) you'd only decline if you plan on pursuing legal action against your employer.

And if you're already on a back channel, then you don't care about playing fair.

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by Aeolun on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:47AM (#23997459)
You can just say that you were terminated because your manager at Amazon was insecure and didn’t trust you to not fuck things up?
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by Lio on Thursday July 30, 2020 @10:31AM (#23998611)
Well you can of course but interviewers often discount candidates that slag off their old employers on the grounds that they’ll be difficult to manage.
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by User23 on Thursday July 30, 2020 @12:04AM (#23994551)
I personally know someone who gave a two week notice at Amazon and had his manager ask him to stay out the quarter. It's all about relationships and reputation. People with a proven track record of quality work and strong ethics are valued there.
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by Talanes on Thursday July 30, 2020 @02:54AM (#23995394)
What leads you to believe the difference is in the quality of the employee and not the quality of the manager?
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by User23 on Thursday July 30, 2020 @11:21PM (#24005316)
Nothing. Relationships are by definition bidirectional. Being able to have a good relationship with a manager implies that that manager is at least not awful, and most likely also good. The person I refer to would never have delayed starting his new job as long as he did if he didn't have professional respect for his manager.
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by Aeolun on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:45AM (#23997435)
They don’t think someone would have taken the data before handing in their notice?

Feels a bit silly to me.

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by aka1234 on Thursday July 30, 2020 @10:45AM (#23998774)
Must depend on the org and how you do it. My personal experience is that if you are open and up-front with going to a competitor, they'll cut your access and pay you for the remaining time left on your resignation letter/month.

If you go to a competitor and aren't open about it? You might find yourself terminated with no additional pay.

And it makes sense. At Amazon, most people have varying levels of customer data and/or confidential company data. Amazon has to protect itself from data exfiltration/data theft.

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by themeiguoren on Friday July 31, 2020 @04:04PM (#24013280)
If someone was going to steal company info for a competitor, they’d do it before they gave notice that they were leaving. And they wouldn’t tell their current employer where they were going.

This might catch extraordinarily stupid people from conducting industrial espionage, but really I see it as the company encouraging people to not give any notice at all (which, remember, is just a courtesy) when they quit. It’s shortsighted on the company’s part.

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by ponker on Thursday July 30, 2020 @01:12AM (#23994901)
Fired as in not paid for the two weeks? That’s very unusual but being shown the door when you give notice and having your desk effects delivered to you is not at all uncommon.
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by jsizzle on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @10:13PM (#23993693)
This is not atypical though, and it happens in non high tech industries. Why is this an issue?
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by run414 on Thursday July 30, 2020 @02:21AM (#23995229)
Sorry. I didn't mean to imply a moral judgement on the issue. I was just trying to provide an example that furthers the parent's point on Amazon being very protective of their data.
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by paulryanrogers on Wednesday July 29, 2020 @09:09PM (#23993306)
Co-mingling inventory does not inspire trust
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by didibus on Thursday July 30, 2020 @12:03AM (#23994535)
What's important to know is that the seller chooses if they want their inventory comingled or not. And that comingling allows for faster delivery.

That said, I would really like it if it could be a choice given to the buyer as well. Or at least make it clear when you're buying and getting something comingled.

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by watwut on Thursday July 30, 2020 @09:03AM (#23997605)
I mean, if you know many amazon employees who overstepped seller data access, then amazon really should do something to prevent seller data access.
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by shalmanese on Thursday July 30, 2020 @08:50AM (#23997493)
That's not what Wells Fargo did given that it was a massively net unprofitable venture. A tiny minority of the new accounts opened were fee paying ones, the vast majority were fraudulent, free accounts opened so employees could collect bonuses.

It's amazing to me that a fraud perpetrated upon Wells Fargo by its own employees is spun as an act of malice by WF itself.

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by WalterBright on Thursday July 30, 2020 @06:39AM (#23996583)
Any large organization (that includes government organizations) is going to have some level of crime in it. "Guaranteeing" there isn't any hanky-panky going on somewhere in it is an absurd requirement.
Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by TheOtherHobbes on Thursday July 30, 2020 @09:11AM (#23997668)
But you can categorically state that it's against the aims and culture of the company, and there are formal processes in place to deal with transgressions, and that you'll be happy to go through those processes in detail, with examples of why and how they were followed.

That's a rather different category of response to "Well I just can't guarantee this doesn't happen."

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by ashtonkem on Thursday July 30, 2020 @03:06PM (#24001777)
Of course, but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that some organizations explicitly create the incentive for criminal or unethical behavior, fail to setup the safeguards to prevent it, and then use the line level workers as scapegoats if they get caught.

This is significantly different than a good faith organization having some members engage in criminal behavior.

Re:Jeff Bezos can’t promise Amazon employees don’t access in... by WalterBright on Thursday July 30, 2020 @04:23PM (#24002472)
The problem with safeguards is none of them are impermeable, and so how far is it worth going with them? Safeguards aren't free.