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Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by nabilhat on Friday July 24, 2020 @12:18PM (#23941264)
> In 1995, astronomer Bob Williams wanted to point the Hubble Space Telescope at a patch of sky filled with absolutely nothing remarkable. For 100 hours.

It was a terrible idea, his colleagues told him, and a waste of valuable telescope time. People would kill for that amount of time with the sharpest tool in the shed

And by 'Bob Williams', we mean the director of the Space Telescope Science Institute, which operates Hubble. Williams chose to use some of the predefined Director's Discretionary Time to explore the limits of the telescope and our understanding of the universe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Williams_(astronomer)

Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by hawski on Friday July 24, 2020 @12:49PM (#23941687)
From the article:

> And, to be honest, it didn’t really matter how much his colleagues protested. As director of the Space Telescope Science Institute, he had a certain amount of Hubble’s time at his personal disposal. “The telescope allocation committee would never have approved such a long, risky project,” he explains. “But as director, I had 10 percent of the telescope time, and I could do what I wanted.”

Also:

> “Scientific discovery requires risk,” Williams says. “And I was at a point in my career where I said, “If it’s that bad, I’ll resign. I‘ll fall on my sword.’”

Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by supernova87a on Friday July 24, 2020 @01:31PM (#23942187)
Well, my opinion (now) is that it wasn't so huge a gamble and completely unknown. The galaxy luminosity function (# galaxies per brightness, basically for those unfamiliar) is a curve they knew the beginnings of through images to date, and it wasn't unreasonable to suppose it would keep going beyond what had been done.

It's not like you would expect galaxies to suddenly stop being found if you took exposures a little deeper. It was a good (and not outrageous) bet. I would liken it to -- if we built a better microscope and looked deeper into a cell, is it likely we'd find nothing new? Probably not.

Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by Complexicate on Friday July 24, 2020 @02:48PM (#23943150)
I'm glad you prefaced this with "(now)" ie: hindsight. There's always a considerable chance that tests of the untested / unproven will remain inconclusive, even if there's some evidence we should find something.

It's extremely risky to allocate a huge amount of finite resources to these unknowns, when there are so many areas we KNOW we can help advance with those finite resources. The fact that he was ready to retire, if the picture came back with barely anything in it, gives a sense of how bad that waste of resources would have been.

Future us might not think it is such a gamble to send a probe to look for life in the oceans of Saturn's moon Enceladus. There's evidence of abiogenesis from deep sea vents on Earth, and Enceladus has very similar conditions. But present us knows there are so many unknowns and possibilities of failure even if something is there. And there are so many other useful ways to use the finite resources of our space program.

It took a lot of courage on Bob Williams' part to explore this.

Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by simonh on Friday July 24, 2020 @09:15PM (#23946081)
Except the models they had at the time indicated there should be a lot fewer galaxies than they actually found. Five times fewer. I that’s what the deep field had shown, it would merely have confirmed what people already thought they knew anyway. The reason the actual deep field is so interesting is because it dramatically expanded the scale of the observable universe. If it hadn’t done that, we wouldn’t be talking about it.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by qwertox on Friday July 24, 2020 @03:08PM (#23943321)
10% is a remarkable amount of time. I was astonished when I read that number. I would have expected it to be around 1% at max.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by evanb on Friday July 24, 2020 @03:19PM (#23943412)
Discretionary time is usually given to projects which otherwise didn't get any time, it's not usually hoarded for the director himself.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by nitrogen on Friday July 24, 2020 @03:30PM (#23943521)
I hadn't heard of this concept before, but I find it appealing. It's kind of like an insurance policy against groupthink, or a diversified long bet. More projects should have a small percentage of time dedicated to a drastically different allocation process, with iron-clad protection (like "director's discretion") to prevent manipulation, to help prevent getting stuck.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by BbzzbB on Friday July 24, 2020 @04:00PM (#23943810)
I find that asymmetric/concentrated power in the appropriate (!) hands can lead to better results for most things. For instance, I'd rather put my money in a company where the CEO has the proper vision and considerable agency over one that is ruled by committee, like most tech titants. I wouldn't advocate for a regression to authoritary regimes, but I think they can stabilize and accelerate progression towards greater objectives as opposed to a segmented and elected political power which rules on a 4 (maybe 8) years "vision" (colored heavily by polls optimization), for example China or ex-Yugoslavia. Linux probably benefited greatly from having Linus. It can obviously go wrong (North Korea, too many kings to count, WeWork, Theranos..).

I think it's a good hedge for NASA to have this policy, they probably selected a good pick in the first place, and if it went wrong they could probably easily replace the position [source needed].

Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by noir_lord on Friday July 24, 2020 @06:40PM (#23945224)
Singapore is a fairly good example of a (mostly) benign dictator - built a modern developed city-state out of what was basically a swamp.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by cobookman on Friday July 24, 2020 @06:00PM (#23944924)
Good example is Google vs Amazon/Apple. Google's culture is very much a democracy of sort inside. Apple/Amazon more top down direction.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by mrkstu on Friday July 24, 2020 @06:18PM (#23945072)
The problem, of course, is survivorship bias.

Its similar to Monarchy vs Democracy. A great monarch can get a lot more done than a leader in a democracy. They can also do a lot more harm.

If you want to maximize the potential of a company, you must choose a great CEO and give them near-unlimited power. The problem is that most boards aren't qualified/able to find one, which is why founders that survive the filter to growing into a mega-company are the ones you listed- they are the ones who've already got one.

Tim Cook is doing fine, but he doesn't wield near the influence Jobs did- look how long it took him to finesse Joni Ive out of the company, despite his choices causing massive problems for Apple.

Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by amenghra on Friday July 24, 2020 @03:56PM (#23943771)
At tech companies, it’s often in the form of hackathons, hackweeks, or 20% time.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by wolco on Friday July 24, 2020 @05:26PM (#23944641)
Is 20% a real thing anywhere, aside from select google employees?
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by marcyb5st on Friday July 24, 2020 @07:01PM (#23945368)
Googler here. Yes, in my team we have a colleague that is spending one day a week trying to solve a particular problem we have with a completely novel approach. He had an idea after we presented what we are up to in one of our Org summit. Furthermore, it is really a streamlined process, ie you only need your manager approval.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by sukilot on Sunday July 26, 2020 @12:00AM (#23954335)
That's not 20% time. That's a project for your primary work area.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by BurningFrog on Friday July 24, 2020 @11:36PM (#23946673)
When I was at Google (long ago), you were very welcome to do a 20% project. But it was not considered in your performance review.

So you'd better do it outside of your regular job, adding up to a 120% workload.

Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by mensetmanusman on Saturday July 25, 2020 @02:55PM (#23951536)
It is at 3M
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by hwayne on Friday July 24, 2020 @07:20PM (#23945481)
The Hubble schedule is planned out roughly a year in advance. If any unexpected astronomical events occur, they use discretionary time to study it.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by JamesLeonis on Friday July 24, 2020 @12:45PM (#23941625)
I adore these images, and deeply respect the reputation risk in getting them.

I also believe that even if we found nothing at all, it would still advance our understanding of the universe as we could confidently say what limits there might be.

Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by stingraycharles on Friday July 24, 2020 @12:49PM (#23941685)
Unfortunately people would not have gotten nearly as excited when seeing nothing, and the nay-sayers would have made this very clear.

These things are always as much science as they are politics, so the reputation damage would have been real.

Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by ISL on Friday July 24, 2020 @02:18PM (#23942778)
If nothing had been seen, the implications would have been spectacular.

Experiments worth doing are worth doing no matter the result.

Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by Tegran on Friday July 24, 2020 @08:18PM (#23945817)
The implications aren't automatically "there's nothing out there", more "this was the wrong tool for the job".
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by ISL on Friday July 24, 2020 @08:45PM (#23945958)
True, but I doubt that anyone would have gambled that much Hubble time without working out the statistical sensitivity of the measurement.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by mirimir on Friday July 24, 2020 @06:36PM (#23945196)
Right, I suspect that there was much more behind Bob's deep field study than TFA presents.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by ianai on Friday July 24, 2020 @01:55PM (#23942500)
More importantly, could he have done the same thing in today’s world and political realities that he did then?
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by JamesLeonis on Friday July 24, 2020 @02:37PM (#23943023)
While I agree with you about PR and reputation (sadly), it would be valuable for scientists as a Null value. I would put it on the same level as the Aether experiments.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by stingraycharles on Friday July 24, 2020 @02:56PM (#23943209)
Yes the point I tried to make was explicitly about the political aspects. I agree that from a scientific point of view, the null value is almost as valuable as what we got now.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by soneil on Friday July 24, 2020 @10:15PM (#23946364)
I think it's not so much that it was a huge gamble. It was more that it was a sensitive time politically, to make that gamble.

I mean, if they found nothing? Sure, that's still a question Hubble should be trying to answer. But right after such a rocky start, the politically obvious choice would have been to go for easy wins.

The timing was as ballsy as anything else, if not more so.

Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by jostmey on Friday July 24, 2020 @02:11PM (#23942692)
Wow! The culture sounds very risk averse. I mean 100 hours is not much given how long the telescope remained opertional
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by RedOrGreen on Friday July 24, 2020 @03:53PM (#23943733)
HST is in a 96-minute orbit, up to half of which is blocked by the Earth, depending on where in the sky you point it. Getting time on it is an extremely competitive process - the recent cycle had over a thousand proposals, requesting over 24,000 orbits worth of observing time, and they had only 2700 orbits to allocate [1].

This sort of proposal pressure (over 9:1 oversubscription) leads to very conservative proposals, where we request absolute minimums and emphasize that even a non-detection will lead to publishable science in such and such a way.

Getting over 60 orbits to point at a blank field would have been frankly impossible through the regular time allocation process, not because the science wasn't excellent, not because it wouldn't be recognized as excellent, but because it would crowd out other science that could be done with far fewer orbits per project.

The telescope administrators explicitly recognized this problem when they set up the Director's Discretionary Time process (and this is common to all telescopes now) - sometimes you need someone with the authority to just roll the dice on a long shot.

[1] https://www.stsci.edu/contents/newsletters/2019-volume-36-is...

Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by dheera on Friday July 24, 2020 @02:48PM (#23943145)
Exactly, this is exactly why I decided not to pursue academia.

Too many times I heard things along the lines of getting "low hanging fruit" to get "published" and that "don't try that you won't ever graduate". Why is graduating and publishing papers and tenure and theses the goal of academia, instead of trying the highest possible risk things that even companies wouldn't want to risk? Why isn't academia about doing the most utterly crazy things possible in the name of advancing science for civilization?

Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by Kalium on Friday July 24, 2020 @03:01PM (#23943254)
You're absolutely right. What's good for civilization is to advance scientific understanding and knowledge. To take risks, because sometimes they pan out! So go on, pour resources into a thousand crazy ideas. Something will work out eventually.

Yet, what's good for the academic? Each effort costs potentially years of your life. A great discovery will catapult you to the stars, a small one will advance your career, and a negative finding does nothing. You're not alone, you have peers competing for the next round of funding, tenured position, or residency. There are literally never enough to go around, and each will judge applicants in part on their record of results.

I think you're describing a conflict between what's valuable for a system at scale and what's valuable for individual actors within it.

Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by db48x on Friday July 24, 2020 @03:25PM (#23943469)
If you want to find nothing without hurting your career, spend your time reproducing other people's results. Lots of the time you will find what they found, which doesn't help your career much. But sometimes you'll find frauds or mistakes, and that will help your career and our civilization quite a lot.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by bonoboTP on Friday July 24, 2020 @05:51PM (#23944850)
That's very optimistic. More likely you will be disliked by your peers for, in their view, actively trying to demolish their reputation. There's a lot of politics in academia and it's way better to just try to be friends and never say bad words of other peoples works. Live and let live. Is this good for the public and "Science" in capital letters? No. But it's how it is.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by db48x on Friday July 24, 2020 @07:20PM (#23945485)
Perhaps it is, but you don't have to reproduce the work of your direct colleagues.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by bonoboTP on Friday July 24, 2020 @07:50PM (#23945643)
Specialties are usually small worlds where everyone knows everyone, reviews, funding grants recommendations flow between them, as do postdocs and graduate students. Stirring up as little water as possible and playing into the hands of the others is incentivized.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by Reelin on Friday July 24, 2020 @10:22PM (#23946396)
This is highly dependent on the discipline and particular field.

For topics with a large number of practicing labs that make use of relatively accessible tooling you might be able to pull off such an approach.

Other fields require customized, incredibly expensive instrumentation. Physics and certain areas of biomedical research are examples of this. It's not uncommon that fewer than ten labs in the entire world will have the capability to perform a particular highly specialized technique.

Even in the largest fields though, it will be your peers reviewing your grant applications at the end of the day.

Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by newen on Friday July 24, 2020 @04:27PM (#23944062)
It’s a question of resource allocation too. To advance science, you want to give more resources and control to people who can potentially make the best discoveries and breakthroughs. How do you find these people? Currently, it seems to be this competition with papers published on the best journals with high citation numbers.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by klyrs on Friday July 24, 2020 @03:26PM (#23943475)
Imagine the world had a single supercomputer, and somebody wanted 100% utilization for those hundred hours to, say, train a neural net to play donkey kong. It's not a huge cost, given the expected lifetime of the resource, but to everybody else waiting in the queue, it would be quite the opportunity cost.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by zeroimpl on Friday July 24, 2020 @07:24PM (#23945511)
But you don’t sum up all the other things for opportunity cost, you take the single max value. In other words, the opportunity cost doesn’t care about how many other people were waiting, it cares only about how much useful results the best alternative proposal would have gotten with the same amount of hours.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by klyrs on Friday July 24, 2020 @07:43PM (#23945603)
That's an inaccurate picture of resource allocation. 100 hours of a globally unique resource could satisfy 100 1-hour demands. You sum those.
Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by zeroimpl on Saturday July 25, 2020 @12:01AM (#23946757)
That would be one proposal - give 1 hour to 100 different groups.

What you don’t do is sum the 10000 different requests, nor the 100 requests that also want to use 100 hours each.

Re:When Hubble stared at nothing for 100 hours (2015) by dredmorbius on Friday July 24, 2020 @03:42PM (#23943643)
This is increasingly common across numerous fields. Certainly in academia, but also in corporate R&D, investing, venture capital, military procurement, etc.

Novel trials are big risks, are institutional (or worse, multi-institutional), and searcch spaces are large, well-picked-over, and huge gains improbabble. Though aversion to novelty is a long-standing behaviour, see "Resistances to the Adoption of Technological Innovations", by Bernhard J. Stern (1937):

https://archive.org/details/technologicaltre1937unitrich/pag...

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