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Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by refurb on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @11:51AM (#23907837)
Yup. This is why I actually agree with Zuckerberg on his “no censorship” approach.

He’s smart enough to recognize that taking on the burden of what should be censored and what shouldn’t is a quagmire he’d prefer to avoid. No matter how “good” your filters are, you’re going to piss off a massive group of customers, despite all the effort.

It’s just a massive time sink with little to no benefit.

“The only way to win is to not play at all.”

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by smt88 on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @12:00PM (#23907930)
I think it's fine for Facebook to opt out of fact-checking, as long as they also opt out of algorithmic syndication of content.

If my feed is going to have posts shared by others (even non-friends) or, worse, op-eds in it, then FB is vouching for whatever I see. If they share a link with 50 million people, they're certainly responsible for the consequences.

Worse is the ad side, where Facebook wants to continue to profit from well-funded wars against science while still claiming to be neutral.

If you get paid to broadcast a message and then broadcast it, you are not neutral.

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by pjc50 on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @12:26PM (#23908207)
Bingo. You can make an argument that your posts are your free speech. But "What Facebook chooses to put on your feed" is Facebook's speech.
Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by phatfish on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @02:58PM (#23909734)
Agree completely.

Of course this is exactly how Facebook want it. To appear as the light touch impartial platform where "everyone is free" to communicate. Except in the background they play with who sees what to increase engagement and run experiments.

With the black-box of algorithms used to target content we can only guess what is really happening. But as every media company knows, controversy sells. So I'll need a lot of proof that generating controversy isn't exactly what Facebook is doing on their platform.

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by forgotmyhnacc on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @12:40PM (#23908350)
How does this argument apply to Google? When you search something e.g. is climate change real, Google ranks the results algorithmically. If Google doesn't do fact checking, are they liable for false statements?
Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by erichocean on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @06:04PM (#23911474)
> When you search something e.g. is climate change real, Google ranks the results algorithmically.

On hot-button topics, that's simply not true. Google maintains manual rankings for all sorts of things, and especially manually maintains search suggestions so as to not lead people down the "wrong" path.

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by Nasrudith on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @01:03PM (#23908588)
It applies just as much because it is a fundamentally technically illiterate argument. It already ignores that the whole point of the algorithim is to prioritize. In this case just as much means "none" for both because it is asking for an outright contradiction to - provide prioritization without any bias. Or bias without bias. Nonsensical stupidity. The mobster with a cudgel making vague threats rhetoric is just another form of the stupid and wrong meme of service and platform being mutually excluse.

I personally try to do my part by stomping on this dumb sentiment like a cockroach whenever it pops up.

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by AlexandrB on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @01:36PM (#23908909)
I disagree. The "algorithm" is fundamentally an optimization problem and companies get to choose what the fitness function for each algorithm is. Facebook chooses "engagement". This is not an accident nor some fundamental property of math. It's a product decision made by a human. One that can be changed.

And there is a fundamental difference between Google's algorithm and Facebook's: control. Google requires user input through search, Facebook decides what shows up when you open the app/site based on an algorithmic feed. In one case the user has some idea that what they're doing is interacting with an algorithm and they can change their search terms if they're not satisfied with the results, in the other the algorithm is in the background making decisions without making itself obvious.

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by Gigablah on Wednesday July 22, 2020 @01:35AM (#23914225)
There is an implicit search on Facebook though, namely the personal information you’ve entered into your profile and your relationships.
Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by perl4ever on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @10:20PM (#23913301)
You may be misunderstanding. In this case, I think people conceive of an "obvious" baseline to compare to - presenting posts of your friends in a chronological order.

There's no inherent contradiction when people say "this simple, transparent, obvious algorithm is better". Even if implementing it would in fact result in forgoing billions of dollars.

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by thelightthat on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @01:20PM (#23908762)
well said
Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by pjc50 on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @11:58AM (#23907896)
> I actually agree with Zuckerberg on his “no censorship” approach.

But this is a complete nonsense! Facebook cheerfully and aggressively censors anything sexual, far over and above local concerns of legality. Even before FOSTA/SESTA.

(example list from 2018 of censored FB content rules: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/24/facebook-content-that-gets-y... )

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by s1artibartfast on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @12:23PM (#23908157)
The grey area and room for debate is much greater for truth than nudity and sexuality.

zuckerbergs policy preference was no censorship of fake news, not no censorship whatsoever.

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by vkou on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @12:38PM (#23908324)
> The grey area and room for debate is much greater for truth than nudity and sexuality.

That's your subjective opinion. Different cultures will significantly disagree with you (and with the Zuck) on what the gray area for nudity and sexuality is.

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by s1artibartfast on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @01:06PM (#23908628)
Different cultures may disagree on what the policy should be, but Zuckerberg has the ability to create nudity rules that are objective, whether you agree with them or not.

For example, FB can make a policy that says no exposed nipples for females. There may be different opinions on the value of such a policy, but not the execution/implementation.

This is much more difficult for a policy stating that content must not be "misleading". Fact checking is much more problematic, because there can be support for either interpretation, nuance, as well as scientific uncertainty.

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by AlexandrB on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @01:41PM (#23908952)
The problem in the linked article doesn't seem to be that the rules were ambiguous. Instead it seems as though they were perfectly clear but overruled by leadership because of external pressure. Plus there's this:

> Last week, however, ProPublica reported that explicit misinformation about voting remains rampant on the platform.

Voting misinformation is not ambiguous in the way you describe, yet Facebook doesn't care.

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by s1artibartfast on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @04:05PM (#23910422)
I think we would have to discuss the examples given by propublica[1]. Almost everything I saw was a matter of opinion.

"Your democracy, your freedom is being stripped away from you, and if you allow that then everything this country stood for, fought for, bled for is all in vain"

"the democratic party wants to rig our elections by forcing all voters to vote by mail. Vote by mail WILL lead to fraud"

"“Flooding the nation with ballots that can be stolen, sold, discarded, and forged—THAT’s the path to Leftist victory in November.”

“You think coronavirus is a crisis, wait till you see the voter fraud epidemic we have here in California. And mark my words it’s heading to your state like a diseased bat out of hell.”

“If you mail in your vote, your vote will be in Barack Obama’s fireplace.”

[1] https://www.propublica.org/article/outright-lies-voting-misi...

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by filoeleven on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @01:48PM (#23909045)
> For example, FB can make a policy that says no exposed nipples for females. There may be different opinions on the value of such a policy, but not the execution/implementation.

Your policy is still ill-defined, though. Do you mean ALL female nipples, or just human ones? Does the ban extend to babies? Who’s going to police that, and how?

Radiolab did an episode on all kinds of Facebook rules, covering the nipple conundrum as part of it. There’s very little that is straightforward about implementing any of them.

https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/post-...

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by s1artibartfast on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @03:44PM (#23910199)
I agree there are edge cases. Are you saying the nipple issue is harder than moderating politically contested statements of fact regarding the nature of the world we live in?
Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by filoeleven on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @10:17PM (#23913289)
I thought you were saying that “universal rules for nudity (subcontent: nipples)” are easier to write than “universal rules for fact-checking.“ If so, I disagree. They are either:

a) equally hard, given the common understanding of what “facts” mean nowadays, or

b) nudity is harder, given cultural contexts.

Culture makes a lot of difference for what’s considered nudity (e.g. women breastfeeding goats, as illustrated in the link), and it should matter less for statements about average temperatures for a given region, etc. But the “facts” as presented are contested anyway, since they are derivations based on data + interpretation, even if the interpretation is from >95% of scientists in the relative field.

That makes me lean more towards (a) even though I wish it was (b).

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by s1artibartfast on Wednesday July 22, 2020 @12:20AM (#23913882)
>I thought you were saying that “universal rules for nudity (subcontent: nipples)” are easier to write than “universal rules for fact-checking.“ If so, I disagree. They are either:

I think we still have a misunderstanding. I am saying that enforceable rules for nipples are easier to write, regardless of the cultural approval of those rules. A well written rule can be enforced by only looking at the content that is on the platform ( eg the image). That is not to say people might disagree (its Art!) or they might get it wrong (its a male nipple).

When it comes to statements of fact, this is not the case. The enforcers must draw conclusion based on off platform research, a presumed intent of the post, and/or a presumed interpretation.

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by filoeleven on Wednesday July 22, 2020 @02:03PM (#23919791)
I think I’m with you now. The nature of a factual claim is that it refers to other things that must be examined in order to determine if it passes or fails a rule, whereas for many kinds of images there is no external reference that has to be consulted: the content is all right there in the image itself.

In which case I’d have to agree! Thanks for taking the time to clarify it for me.

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by s1artibartfast on Wednesday July 22, 2020 @03:57PM (#23920909)
Exactly! I would say that many other common rules follow the feasibility of images. For example it is easy to test if a post is doxxing, contains swear words, ect.
Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by Latty on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @02:27PM (#23909421)
I saw someone who was posting close-ups of nipples without specifying a gender to make the point that it isn't really that simple.

Is a trans woman's nipple OK? What about a trans man? What if the trans man has large breasts? What if a cis man has large breasts? What about the tattoo nipple of a cancer survivor?

Nothing is simple, there are value judgements at every turn. The implementation is absolutely making judgements.

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by s1artibartfast on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @03:42PM (#23910174)
I still think it is easier than defining truth.

In all above cases you could provide the reviewer with an objective yes/no answer. The reviewer does not need a PHD to know if there is a nipple in a picture.

This is not the case for questions of scientific truth, which other requires understand the scientific consensus with complex nuances.

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by Traster on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @12:24PM (#23908168)
And of course that doesn't even get into the fact that Facebook isn't about whether you can post something, it's about how algorithms choose to share what you post with others. They can tweak things so your post shows up at the top of everyone's feed, or no one's at all.
Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by Barrin92 on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @12:46PM (#23908402)
not just anything sexual, but mere nudity on social media platforms seems to be controversial. I remember the "female presenting nipples" debacle on Tumblr including pictures of breast-feeding mothers.

"no censorship" apparently means, "don't anger American conservatives", not "everyone can speak and share".

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by Nasrudith on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @12:56PM (#23908517)
It is probably pragmatic/conventional wisdom that it will kill mainstream adoption if they are openly linked to it. It is deeply stupid but I can't say it is incorrect.

Now they have a point with FOSTA - it was already risky when they don't know if a naked body is 18 or 17.

To be blunt stupid inputs be they customer norms or laws get stupid results - it is how systems work.

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by jeromegv on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @12:02PM (#23907954)
But he already plays by having an algo that suggest you articles/news/groups to join. It would be one thing if it was just a dump of what your friends post and nothing else. But the moment you "suggest" content to people, you take an editorial stance. If you take an editorial stance and start pushing an article to millions of people, then you have a responsibility.

You can't have it both ways. This isn't a phone company.

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by johndavidback on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @12:37PM (#23908315)
> It’s just a massive time sink with little to no benefit.

There is arguably a large social benefit to preventing widespread misinformation being disseminated. Perhaps no great business benefit - indeed it is likely a massive expense. But someone somewhere is paying that cost, however it manifests.

Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by shadowgovt on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @12:48PM (#23908433)
I'm sure he'd prefer to avoid it, but Facebook has become influential enough in people's day-to-day information consumption that at this point, doing nothing is itself a stance in favor of the well-funded and well-connected.
Re:Facebook overrides fact-checks when climate science is “o... by duskwuff on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @01:18PM (#23908738)
> Yup. This is why I actually agree with Zuckerberg on his “no censorship” approach.

The Rohingya massacre in Myanmar begs to differ.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/10/15/technology/myanmar-facebo...