News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @07:02PM (#23410032)
> social media sites should not be the business of censoring elected officials. That is the job of voters and Congress

It's explicitly not the job of Congress. That's the point of the First Amendment.

Regulating free speech is up to private enterprise, using private enforcement methods like de-platforming (old school: you can't spew your drivel inside my bar) and shaming.

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by kukx on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:10PM (#23410726)
Just because they legally can does not mean they should censor the official representatives of the voters. The bigger the audience the more important it gets to show all points of views. The sun is the best disinfectant. The wrong ideas should be publicly challenged, otherwise they may silently spread unchecked and surface when it is too late to stop them. You do not need majority to make quick and radical social changes.
Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by macintux on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:18PM (#23410809)
> The sun is the best disinfectant.

That has proven not to be the case. Bringing extremist views into the mainstream by way of social media (and politics) has only strengthened their influence.

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by dnadler on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:39PM (#23410960)
This was the real eye opener for me over the past 5 or 10 years. I used to be firmly in the "no censorship" camp, but it seems an alarming number Americans (I'm American and can't speak for any other nation) are not capable of using critical thinking when it comes to political issue that they've already made up their minds about. Close friends and family included.

I don't know the answer to this problem, but it seems our education system needs dramatic improvement.

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by gotoeleven on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @09:11PM (#23411185)
So people you know are thinking wrong, which shouldn't be allowed? You know this line of reasoning has a long and storied history.
Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by cool_dude85 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @09:36PM (#23411366)
So does not cracking down on hate speech and incitement to violence.

Imagine tut-tutting if the Rwandan government had cracked down on radio broadcasts calling Tutsi people cockroaches and encouraging Hutus to chop them down.

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by philwelch on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @09:57PM (#23411471)
The Rwandan government, or at least individuals involved with the Rwandan government at the highest levels, were making the broadcasts.

If anything they would have cracked down on opposing broadcasts by claiming that, since Tutsis are the historically privileged beneficiaries of colonialism who were collectively responsible for the violent oppression of Hutus, any pro-Tutsi or anti-anti-Tutsi sentiment was unconscionable hate speech while any pro-Hutu or anti-Tutsi bigotry was not technically racism. The power to ban “hate speech” is the power to define “hate speech” and hateful people will use against you the very same weapons you propose to fight them with.

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by thu2111 on Thursday June 04, 2020 @05:43AM (#23414549)
Not really. This is widely believed but attempts to rigorously study that end up finding no evidence for it.

Interesting that you picked Rwanda. The go-to example for the dangers of free speech is normally the Nazis. For instance I'm thinking of a study that attempted to correlate growth in support for Hitler with availability of his speechs on radio or via rallies. It found IIRC no correlation at all.

In fact Hitler was regularly censored, deplatformed and so on yet it didn't stop him, only perhaps slow him down a bit. On the other hand he spent vast efforts on suppressing, censoring, vote stuffing and de-platforming in various nasty ways anyone who spoke out against him - all managed entirely privately via his various organisations, whilst the weak Weimar Republic were unable to stop him.

Dictators are invariably big fans of suppressing free speech, because they know censorship works in favour of whoever is in power. The reason democracy and free speech are so tightly connected is because in a democracy the people in power aren't meant to be able to do anything to stay in power beyond winning the approval of their citizens.

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by titzer on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @10:05PM (#23411531)
That's not what the poster said. You think you heard "censorship" because you want to hear "censorship" because that's what you want to argue against. But please read their comment again. They literally said they don't know the answer.

Also what that poster did say--and I agree--is that people lack critical thinking skills and have not developed immunity to flat-out bullshit. There's a huge education pipeline problem and our society is at risk because its normal resistance would be to have voters that can think for themselves. Things like flat earth and moon landing conspiracy theories don't need to be "not allowed", they just wouldn't take hold if people could think through basic logic.

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by philwelch on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @10:08PM (#23411541)
I think it’s a little more complicated than that. It’s not inherently about the rise of extremist views, it’s more about how the establishment grew complacent with the 20th century media environment only to be caught wrongfooted when the 21st century media environment exposed them as being full of shit. Once everyone realizes that the mainstream media and the political establishment are full of shit, where do we have to go from there except to the extremes?
Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by gotoeleven on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @09:09PM (#23411178)
If these views are so wrong, shouldn't it be evident to people? That some mush head labeled something "extreme" shouldn't be enough to ban it. What you are really saying is that you think you would be the best censor.
Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by NE2z2T9qi on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:44PM (#23410994)
Do you see how you're loading and manipulating your words to serve your biased purposes? If an "extremist" view is popular with the "mainstream", it's definitionally not an extremist view. And has it occurred to you that a Republican might consider AOC or Bernie Sanders or Ruth Bader Ginsberg a "dangerous extremist" while a Democrat might consider Trump or Bill Barr or Mitch McConnell an extremist? Is it really that hard to imagine how other people not aligned with you politically might think?
Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by AxiomaticSpace on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:31PM (#23410905)
I think the last few years have proven what you've said really really wrong. Bigger audiences for toxic speech (on both the left and the right) tend to amplify the ideas contained in that speech, and when those ideas are publicly challenged, which they always are, they become politicized and people become entrenched in a giant shouting match that doesn't accomplish anything. People with big audiences on the internet, especially elected officials, should be held to a higher standard than the average user to facilitate better conversations about important topics, not lower standards just because what they're saying is news worthy.
Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by emsy on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @07:27PM (#23410303)
You could argue de-platforming is a violation of the first and amend accordingly.
Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by gruez on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @07:33PM (#23410358)
>You could argue de-platforming is a violation of the first

There's literally no way you can read the 1st amendment and think it should apply to non government entities. It specifically mentions congress only.

>and amend accordingly.

The chances of getting such amendment passed is approximately zero.

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by dntbnmpls on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @07:47PM (#23410511)
> There's literally no way you can read the 1st amendment and think it should apply to non government entities. It specifically mentions congress only.

It already applies to non government entities. Telephone companies can't deny you service because they don't like you or what you say. Your power and gas company can't deny you service because they don't like you or what you say.

Trump can't even block people on twitter ( a private company ).

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/07/09/fede...

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:28PM (#23410889)
> Telephone companies can't deny you service because they don't like you or what you say

This has nothing to do with the Constitution and everything to do with their licenses for public airwaves.

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by dntbnmpls on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:49PM (#23411029)
> This has nothing to do with the Constitution and everything to do with their licenses for public airwaves.

Public airwaves? This applied during the landline days and it had more to do with the idea of monopolies/utilites/trusts.

Either way, it debunks your point that non-government entities are all allowed to censor...

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by XorNot on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @10:17PM (#23411590)
The protections the telephone companies have are based on their desire to remain common carrier status, and not being considered curators or providers of the content they carry.

It's not they can't censor, it's that if they do then their legal status changes in a way they do not wish it too.

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by dntbnmpls on Thursday June 04, 2020 @12:55AM (#23412575)
> It's not they can't censor, it's that if they do then their legal status changes in a way they do not wish it too.

In other words, they can't censor as they are. A private company cannot censor.

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by patagurbon on Thursday June 04, 2020 @02:52AM (#23413424)
>they can't censor as they are.

Yes

>A private company cannot censor

No. They are common carriers. Twitter and the vast majority of other companies are not.

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by dntbnmpls on Thursday June 04, 2020 @06:00AM (#23414645)
> No.

But you said "Yes" two lines above.

> They are common carriers.

These common carriers are private companies, not public companies. They aren't owned by the government. They are owned by private shareholders. AT&T, Verizon, T-Mobile, etc are private companies or non government entities.

> Twitter and the vast majority of other companies are not.

I never claimed twitter and the vast majority of companies are. I only responded to the assertion that all "non government entities" can censor. I was providing proof that some non government entities cannot censor.

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by NwmG on Thursday June 04, 2020 @12:01PM (#23418333)
They can indeed censor, I think what the prior poster was saying is that if they choose to censor, their regulation changes.
Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by dntbnmpls on Thursday June 04, 2020 @07:08PM (#23423052)
That's not how it works. They can't censor. It's why they don't. Can you show me anyone who has been #Canceled from their phone service? Ever wonder why nobody demanded Harvey Weinstein or Trump lose their phone numbers? Because they can't do it.

If AT&T wants to censor, they have to go find other business. They can't be in the telephone business and censor. It's a lawsuit and possible jail for the execs involved.

People are so desperate to justify censorship that they'll make up nonsense. I can't believe anyone is dumb enough to believe all the pro-censorship nonsense in my thread. The only explanation is bias once again forcing people to make up and accept nonsense.

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by patagurbon on Thursday June 04, 2020 @02:53AM (#23413440)
His point was that the 1st amendment applies only to Congress. There are other laws that apply to other entities, but currently no law prevents Twitter from censoring.
Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by TheSpiceIsLife on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:07PM (#23410699)
Is Facebook / Twitter / the internet in general infrastructure in a similar way to telephony and electricity?

There is an argument to be had there.

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by jasonjayr on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:20PM (#23410820)
I'm sure there are other nuances, but I'd be willing to say that it depends on if their news feed is 'editorialized' or not (ie, they choose what I see, or I choose what I see ...)
Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by dmicah on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @07:31PM (#23410339)
I don't think this is the case, unless the platform is run by the government. The First Amendment applies to restrictions on free speech by the government, and is not related to the actions of private enterprises.
Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by adventured on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:06PM (#23410695)
> unless the platform is run by the government. The First Amendment applies to restrictions on free speech by the government, and is not related to the actions of private enterprises.

That's not quite accurate. There is precedence for regulating speech in private media for example, as in the case of broadcast networks. Broadcast TV networks are still restricted on speech/expression to this day, as are radio stations.

There's nothing to say that social networks can't also be brought under the regulation of the FCC and have their speech and terms of service dictated to them. This turns social media platforms into something more like a utility. All users must be treated equally or the platforms get massive fines. If I were attempting to get this through, I'd argue the major social media platforms are natural monopolies due to reinforcing network effects and the finite nature of user time (there can only reasonably be so many large social networks, and the market has already strongly demonstrated globally that that is a very small number). You can replace a natural monopoly with another (an independent Instagram, allowed to evolve as a threat, possibly could have killed Facebook for example and become the new monopoly), but you can't have 100 Facebooks that will all perfectly compete with eachother (some people will argue that in theory you could, but that would never happen in reality). For whatever niche / category / concept they target, social networks inherently trend toward either consolidation of users or death; it's why the Twitter clones were all killed off in the early days when people were still experimenting with that social concept. It's why there are not dozens of large scale YouTube or Reddit or even Stackoverflow clones (the rather brutal combination of network effects and finite user time wins in all cases and you end up with consolidation of users to just a few viable platforms). The market, largely left to sort things out on its own in the social media sphere, has provided a lot of proof that large social media platforms are natural monopolies.

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by reaperducer on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:19PM (#23410815)
The reason broadcast content was regulated was because broadcast frequencies are a finite, public resource. Internet platforms are neither of those.

Also, the FCC no longer regulates broadcast content. It publicly stated a number of years ago that it does not have the desire to do so. The stations police themselves in order to stay within their perceived community standards to prevent external regulation.

Today, unless a station does something really egregious and congresscritters get involved, there is effectively no content regulation.

In the mid-90's, I was part of a morning radio show that was #2 in a medium-sized East coast market. One day we said "shit" on the air three times to see if this was true. Nothing happened. We didn't hear word one from any listener, manager, or government agency.

Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by patagurbon on Thursday June 04, 2020 @02:56AM (#23413461)
It is accurate. Other laws can be created which apply to various other entities, such as corporations. But the 1st amendment specifically applies only to Congress.
Re:Things from leaked audio of Mark Zuckerberg and his emplo... by jldugger on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @07:54PM (#23410581)
If politicans want a platform for their speech, they'll have to buy a newspaper / website like every other tech billionaire already did.