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Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by smoe on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @08:59AM (#23402817)
A bit off topic, but as somebody that doesn't know anything about photography, when I look at pictures taken by dedicated hobbyists and (semi-)professionals vs. normals, the main difference for me is I think almost never from the technical aspects of their cameras but the deliberateness the photos have been taken or selected.

As In "oh, I like this tree, lets snapshot it to put on social media" vs. really thinking about how to capture this moment on a 2D surface. Motif, framing, lights and shadow, flow of lines, fore-, middle-, and background, etc. (As I said, I don't know about photography but those seem to be things you want to care about).

I reckon, the difference of what camera you use is much more about the choices they allow you to make than some superiority in technical specs. The latter is to squeeze out the last few percent or as related to production pipeline e.g. printing on billboards.

I think especially we people in tech, who can often more easily afford it, tend to jump to getting more sophisticated, expensive gear, be that photography, music, painting, etc. expecting better results, forgetting that it's all pretty worthless, if you don't get the fundamental artistry and techniques right first.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by alistairSH on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:34AM (#23404514)
You're absolutely correct. And it's no different than any other art.

But, there are edge cases where a cellphone camera just doesn't work very well. Capturing motion (sports, kids), low-light (bars, concerts, indoor sports), telephoto (birds and animals), and macro (100% scale, insects, flowers, some product photography).

Of course, the best camera is the one you have with you. And cellphone cameras mean that we always have a camera in our pocket or purse. But, I still bring 1-2 camera bodies and 2-4 lenses on most vacations.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by phkahler on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @12:47PM (#23405520)
I just got a "real" camera a few years ago and I find it much better than any of our phone cameras. The thing is the phones have gotten a lot better and are no longer "good enough" but are actually nice. Big lenses and large sensors are still a lot better, but you often can't tell if pictures never go beyond your phone or social media posts.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by mcguire on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @03:10PM (#23407403)
The best portraits I ever took were with a 75mm lens and 2x teleconverter. Nothing is out of proportion and the people look natural because they don't have a camera in their faces. That's hard to do with a cell phone.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by galaxyLogic on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @01:39PM (#23406232)
I think the right approach is to have both, if you are a serious photo-hobbyist. You need a phone anyway.

The value of a good phone-camera is that you most always have it with you.

A picture is only as good as the thing it is a picture of.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by gen220 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @09:20AM (#23403015)
In 2012, I took a photography class led by a professional photographer, and she actively encouraged students to use their phones if they couldn’t get access to a DSLR, and her reasoning was exactly what you describe. To her, composition, color, contrast, textures, lines, framing, and pose was everything. That’s what she was trying to teach us, because that’s the hardest part. Mastering your camera’s settings just takes a lot of time and trial & error.

And this was in 2012, when mobile phones had terrible cameras, mind you!

Of course, resolution and noise are distracting when you print big, but she was trying to judge us for our eyes and hands, rather than for our cameras and mastery over their settings. They’re orthogonal if the observer wants them to be.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by mnw21cam on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @10:06AM (#23403451)
There's also the factor of "The best camera is the one you actually have with you". If you have a fantastic camera sitting at home when a photo opportunity arises, it isn't much use. A mobile phone camera is often the best camera because of this.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by frosted-flakes on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @09:50AM (#23403313)
I took a photography class in college, and the professor had us down-scale our photos to a super low resolution before submitting them. Both to keep file sizes down, and because he was judging us on our composition skills, not the quality of our cameras.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by sukilot on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @10:03AM (#23403423)
Resolution only matters for super duper digital zoom for super large prints. An 18MP phone cam is worse than a 2MP DSLR. Resolution is useless if the lens can't put the right light on each pixel.

For a bad photographer, a good camera makes a huge difference. It has focal length/bokeh, dynamic range, shutter speed, and more to "get" a good shot that a phonecam can't.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by TheRealPomax on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @12:18PM (#23405136)
That's basically the same lesson we've been getting before phones, too, only it used to be a polaroid, or even disposable cameras, as it's important to first learn the basics, and the tech does not matter at that level.

Once you've learned the basics, though, the tech starts to matter a lot and the limitations of that phone, or that disposable camera or polaroid, starts to interfere with the things you know you want to capture and how you want it to look, but simply can't.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by Mediterraneo10 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @01:58PM (#23406492)
Altering depth of field is a huge part of giving a photo a unique composition. In 2012, you simply could not achieve those effects on a phone. So, this teacher was probably well aware of how hobbled her students with only phones were creatively, even if she wouldn't say it out loud for the sake of ensuring enrollment in her course.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by bregma on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @10:24AM (#23403633)
When desktop publishing became a thing back in the 1990s anyone could put a book together. Fancy typesetting, high-dpm printing, kerning, text wrapping, heck it looked great.

You still had to be able to write to create good content. That never changed.

Now anyone can squeeze out polished crap at the touch of a button because the technology makes it simple to produce something that appears sort of like something that used to take experts a lot of work. It still takes experts a lot of work to produce something of quality. The rest of us just produce a lot.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by RichardCA on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @03:40PM (#23407742)
The idea that a certain type of photography is only used by the low, artless, amateur crowd that has no taste has existed throughout the entire history of photography.

You can start around 18 minutes in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWoqdJ6rIoo

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by AuryGlenz on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @02:10PM (#23406653)
I'm a professional. I could do most of my work with cheap DSLR without much difference (although full frame vs. a crop sensor has some differences that couldn't be made up).

It's the edge cases where a top of the line camera/lens can become necessary. I've had church ceremonies where I've had to be at 6400 ISO at f/1.4. There are times where you need to work quickly and don't have time to get a perfect exposure, so having extra latitude in post production is key. There are also performance issues such as the ability to keep focus on a moving or dark target.

I'm primarily a photojournalist wedding photographer and I end up taking ~6000 pictures for a 10 hour wedding, and that'll get winnowed down to 1000 or less. The amounts are all over the place but that ratio is roughly what I've heard from other photographers. Don't feel bad about bad photos; the primary advantage to digital is that we can do that without wasting film.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by smiley1437 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @09:14AM (#23402959)
Informally, it’s called ‘having an eye’ and some people are blessed with it, others work hard to acquire it, and camera technology can seem to offer it. But ultimately, you’re right, it’s still your choices as a photographer that most influence the quality of the work, and while good tech doesn’t hurt, it’s not really the tech.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by slantyyz on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @09:25AM (#23403068)
Note that it also applies to consumers of photography as well. Not all consumers of photography necessarily draw any artistic value from the photos they look at.

For example, my mother would complain about my travel photos that didn't contain people, or would look for things like whether the people looked happy. She couldn't care less about the rule of thirds, bokeh or dramatic lighting.

Don't get me wrong, artistry and craft matter, but I think they would be considered "enhancements". Most people would gladly accept a poorly composed image of a loved one or special moment because they value the memory over other attributes.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by NikolaNovak on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:22AM (#23404355)
It's an interesting dynamic.

I spent 25 years telling people to "get out of my photos" in landscapes. Then something clicked in 2008 and I became all about people (to the point of running a Wedding/Event/Portrait photography business for a decade or so:).

I'll still take landscape photos, and I enjoy them, and some of them are decent... but I still get most excited when I capture a particular expression on a person these days. Go figure!

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by ValentineC on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @10:00AM (#23403399)
> For example, my mother would complain about my travel photos that didn't contain people, or would look for things like whether the people looked happy. She couldn't care less about the rule of thirds, bokeh or dramatic lighting.

Heh, this is one thing I regret about my past photos — I have plenty of travel photos, but very few with myself in them.

And while I know my composition and lighting fundamentals, my photos will rarely be on par with someone with the luxury to wait for the right moment, or something from a postcard or the best of Flickr or 500px.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by slantyyz on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @10:05AM (#23403444)
I'm also rarely in my travel photos, but that's more because I don't like looking at myself in photos.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by panta on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @01:02PM (#23405735)
Now, but will you think the same in 20 or 30 years?
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by slantyyz on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @02:29PM (#23406926)
I'm already at the half century mark, and while I do go through my older photos occasionally, I am still happiest when looking at photos of our dogs.

Who knows if that will change in 20 or 30 years.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by sukilot on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @10:06AM (#23403457)
Art is about what the creator adds. There are already better photos of almost every urban and natural scene you could travel to. Download them and you can enjoy the place live and also have great pics to share and save.

What you bring to the scene is you and your relationships with the people and things there. That's your marginal advantage from your photos.

You'll get better photos by taking candids than posing portraits everywhere though.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by slantyyz on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @10:20AM (#23403579)
While I generally agree with what you're saying, I will say that candids are not necessarily better than posing portraits. That's a very subjective thing.

There are some cultures that prefer the posed portraits over candids.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by ben7799 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @09:55AM (#23403357)
It's very trainable.. huge amounts of art classes deal with composition.

Anything you work on in drawing & painting carries over to photography near 100% as well.

And there are plenty of famous photographers who have been great musicians as well who would argue that music & photographic composition are somehow related as well.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by AuryGlenz on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @02:14PM (#23406699)
I'm a pro, and I absolutely despise going back and looking at images of mine that are just a few years old. It's amazing how fast that eye develops when you're doing it often. I bet if I posted all of last year's weddings in full people could judge which ones were earlier in the year vs later. In Minnesota that's just a 4 month window, and I've been working professionally for 6 years.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by mceachen on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @03:51PM (#23407859)
What aspects of your older work do you not like? Is it your "eye" (subject framing), or technical details (like nonoptimal camera settings or wrong length glass), or something else?

Thanks for sharing your other comments, btw.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by AuryGlenz on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @04:12PM (#23408078)
Oh god, pretty much everything. I would say the largest thing is editing, including simple things like color balance and overall exposure. My retouching used to be awful, but to be fair to myself very few photographers have the retouching skills I know have. A bit of it is overall composition, lighting, etc.

In short, there are images that I used to be really proud of that now are honestly a bit torturous to look through.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by Jaruzel on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @10:16AM (#23403545)
This is why I gave up photography as a hobby. I don't 'the eye' for it. All my photos come out bland and badly composed. These days my DSLRs and all their lenses just sit in a draw gathering dust.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by the_af on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:26AM (#23404420)
My photos are similarly uninteresting, but this is something you can train for. You don't have to be born with this skill.

Photography courses teach basic composition skills that you have to know -- that is, if you follow them blindly you'll get decent and non-boring photos -- and then you can develop your style by selectively subverting them. I suppose getting your own style is about breaking the rules to get more "interesting" and unique photos.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by feteru on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:52AM (#23404789)
You can definitely train it though, you never see other people's bland and poorly composed photos. Pick em back up! Or sell them...
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by kieckerjan on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:26AM (#23404400)
Exactly! Point in case. My girlfriend has an art background and a crappy phone, I have a good DSLR and little experience. When you look at our holiday pictures, mine are razor sharp but boring as hell, hers are compressed to a pulp but always funny or interesting to look at. We should really swap cameras. :)
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by smileysteve on Thursday June 04, 2020 @12:15PM (#23418494)
Be wary though; your subjects are affected by the type of camera; A phone may be less noticed for a photo, so you get a more candid photo.

The most annoying thing is using a prime lens or low light photos and people see you have a camera and get in a line to pose, and you're like, I... can't zoom out and can't get you all in focus.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by fatnoah on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:37AM (#23404556)
This is exactly me and my wife. I'm so frustrated that she doesn't want to learn how to use the SLR. I spend hours agonizing over composition, etc. She just walks up, snaps a pic, and it's perfectly composed but looks like it was watercolors painted with a potato. :(
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by tomc1985 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @12:21PM (#23405184)
"compressed to a pulp" sounds like a problem with her postprocessing setup, not her camera
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by petepete on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:31AM (#23404489)
I'm very much into photography and I struggle from this whenever I stray outside of my comfort zone, wildlife.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by beamatronic on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:38AM (#23404572)
Just bring some wildlife with you wherever you go and include it in the photo! Should make for some interesting shots...
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by beamatronic on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:37AM (#23404557)
Is there an online gallery?
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by roosterdawn on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @01:43PM (#23406288)
I love this point and I've repeated it so often over the years to friends and colleagues who end up at this point. A good forcing function is to always ask, when you're getting a new tool, whether you've exhausted the capabilities of your current setup. It's hard to be honest about this, but consider what skilled practitioners can do with lo-fi equipment, and you might find it'll force you to re-evaluate what you can do with yours.

At a certain point, I stopped looking to new gear (as it pertains to music) and started focusing on trying to push the boundaries of what I had. As it turns out, I wasn't anywhere near close to pushing what I had to its limits, which proved I should just focus on technique and craftsmanship. Since then, I've grown a lot more.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by bitbuilder on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:58AM (#23404873)
I spent from around 2008 to to 2019 carrying a decent camera with me almost everywhere I went. I loved taking photos, and I wanted to make sure I was capturing them in the best format I could.

I also only shared on social media photos that were taken with my DSLR or whatever I was carrying at the time. I received a ton of positive feedback on the quality of the photos, with everyone commenting on the fact I must have a nice camera, asking what camera I used, etc.

Last year, after playing around with an iPhone 10, I made a conscious decision to leave my camera at home for most occasions, and do the best I could with just my phone. The quality was such that I didn't feel I was losing out on much by not using a fancy camera.

Since then 99% of what I post on social media has been shot with my iPhone. And yet, I still, constantly, have people telling me "you must have a nice camera, what kind is it?" They sometimes refuse to believe me when I say it was my phone.

There's no real secret to it, I don't think. I spend a lot of time considering framing, perspective, lighting. I also still post-process in Lightroom (on my phone) most photos I post. Just simple things like some straightening/cropping, maybe bumping the contrast and clarity a bit.

I've come to believe there are really only two things you need a nice camera (or more accurately, lenses) for: 1) nice background separation with a shallow DOF. The iPhone portrait mode is still pretty mediocre, and finicky to use. And 2) the changes in perspective different focal lengths can give you. Compression with a telephoto can give some really nice effects, and you can't beat the wide open sweep of a wide angle.

The fact my iPhone now has 14mm, 26mm, and 52mm focal lengths makes that last point even more irrelevant. And it's so awesome I can quickly toggle through them, rather than swapping lenses or carrying a heavy zoom lens.

Of course phone camera sensors haven't caught up yet with "real" cameras. If you're doing serious night shooting a big sensor still can't be beat. But frankly I'm amazed at just how well my phone does do in low light (just don't pixel peep on a large screen).

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by centimeter on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @12:07PM (#23405016)
It’s true that skill and composition are tremendously important, but having a good camera makes it so much easier to achieve your artistic goals at all skill levels. You have much finer control over things that you have limited or no control over on a cell phone (e.g. aperture), and you can worry a lot less about e.g. low light performance or your ability to push curves in post without getting really bad noise or banding or whatever.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by akiselev on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @09:53AM (#23403342)
That's why I jumped into large format film cameras. DSLRs are nice but when tilting the lens plane relative to the film plane on a 4x5 field camera, the effects on the scene are stunning. It requires a much more intuitive grasp of optics, though.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by mcyukon on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @02:43PM (#23407090)
Never heard of that technique before! Found some videos from Ben Horne about it, that explain it well to a non medium format shooter. Quite a cool way of adjusting the DOF on a scene.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by eropple on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @10:52AM (#23403990)
Also a wheelbarrow of cash! Can you even get started with less than $3K?
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by akiselev on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:39AM (#23404585)
You can buy a used Crown Graphic with the stock lens for a few hundred, used film holders for $20-40, $50 for used tanks, etc. A frugal/patient person should be able to keep it to under $500 total - I went a bit over that because I bought a new Sekonic light meter. $2-3k is more if you're doing the enlarging yourself or shooting larger film like 8x10 where the costs rapidly grow out of control. However, if you're handy it can be a lot cheaper. Except for the lens and billows, which are relatively cheap on ebay, everything can be made out of relatively cheap material available at hardware store. The tricky part is leveling the lens and film planes.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by egypturnash on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:41AM (#23404639)
I am a pro artist and there is certainly some of this going on when I take a photo but to be quite honest the default photo UI is just so shitty compared to grabbing a huge ring to adjust your focus, and snapping a couple quick photos around your estimate of what the right f-stop for the situation is, that I really just don't want to get into more than trying to get a decent angle of natural lighting and some composition I don't hate.

Also as Scalzi notes, the phone's wide-angle lens is rarely the right choice for a lot of good shots, and yet it's all that's available unless I wanna start carrying unwieldy accessories all the time.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by iNate2000 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @09:22AM (#23403039)
Totally

I got my first DSLR in 2006. When I got a new one a few years later, my choice was mostly about what the new camera made _easier_. Because the old camera could do almost everything I wanted to do.

So the new camera had knobs and buttons for things that I had to do in menus on the old one. And a couple of automatic things that I had to do manually on the old one. (Shooting brackets!)

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by TheRealPomax on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @12:13PM (#23405087)
The question is what you see from the person taking those photographs: both will probably have a portfolio of gorgeous deliberate shots, but the person with the actual camera will have a porfolio with a wide variety of types of photos (not subject matter but actual shot: framing, perspective, distance, depth, etc) whereas the portfolio of cell phone photos will be mostly the same, give or take crops and digital edits.

Just viewing lots of photos from lots of different people doesn't tell you the story of what you can do with the tech you're looking at: you really need to look at what individual people are able to get out of them, and cell phone cameras still drastically lose out there, even the ones with "multiple cameras". There are some elementary things that the effectively-pinhole-cameras on a phone just can't do that are trivial with a physically manipulable lens.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by ip26 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @12:57PM (#23405671)
The capabilities of a dedicated camera do help learn about all these concepts. How do you even begin to learn about aperture & depth of field or motion blur if you can't experiment with it? A great chef can cook an amazing meal in a pie tin over a camp stove, but that's not the best way to learn.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by jl6 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:51AM (#23404774)
This is spot on, but one additional factor that makes me desire a high-res DSLR is because I know one day we will have retina wallpaper and the billboard use case will be real and mass-market. I would like to capture as much data as possible in the camera so I can re-enjoy the scene in the most immersive way in the future.

Most of the pictures I take are most definitely not art, just an attempt at snapshotting now.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by amelius on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @12:24PM (#23405216)
> I think especially we people in tech, who can often more easily afford it, tend to jump to getting more sophisticated, expensive gear, be that photography, music, painting, etc. expecting better results, forgetting that it's all pretty worthless, if you don't get the fundamental artistry and techniques right first.

Yes, the main point is the diminishing artistic returns from more expensive gear.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by thisisnico on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @12:39PM (#23405415)
Also to be fair, this comparison isn't fair. The phone has post-processing of the images to improve quality and low-light. DSLR's give raw images so that the photo editor can make those optimizations as necessary. Also, auto-modes on DSLR's are abysmal, especially in low-light settings. A good photographer with the right settings could make the first picture look incredible.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by bonestamp2 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @01:45PM (#23406310)
My DSLR saves a JPG and a RAW file for every photo I take. It would be nice if there was a setting to apply logic similar to my phone to make that JPG look amazing while leaving the RAW file for my own touches. Sometimes, I just take the photo with my phone instead.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by criddell on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @12:57PM (#23405664)
There's no reason for the DSLRs to be abysmal in any regard. Google, Apple, and Sony have shown what's possible with a tiny sensor and lens when you add in computation. Can you imagine what they could do with a big sensor and big lens?

It feels like that's the space Nikon, Canon, and the other big camera companies should be working on. Is there any innovation coming out of the camera companies?

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by AuryGlenz on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @02:21PM (#23406796)
There's plenty of innovation on the hardware side - the move to mirrorless cameras has been the largest jump since digital became a thing (although most pros a sticking with DSLRs for now). Sensors are continually improved, and lenses are better every year.

The software side...not so much. The amount of customization in cameras isn't up to par. For instance, Nikon DSLRs have an image quality button. That's a button that I never want to hit, as it can change the quality from RAW to 'Basic JPEG.' The only way you'll notice that happened is if you see the amount of images you can fit on your card jump up. There's no way to disable it, and on the D750/D610 it's right next to the damned primary ISO button, and they even swapped places between those two cameras.

Fuji has some good film emulation postprocessing for their jpegs. I will say though that a lot of the postprocessing that's done on cell phones is to make up for their limited capabilities. I actually have everything turned off on my DSLRs, as the postprocessing effects the jpeg that's built in to the RAW file. That means what you see on the back on the camera isn't necessarily what you took.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by jjav on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @02:56PM (#23407245)
The workflow is just different. With a DSLR the common path is to shoot RAW and do all the processing with software on your computer (Photoshop, DxO, etc).

There isn't much of a point in having the camera itself try to do the processing as it'll never be able to outcompete the capabilities (both hardware and software-wise) possible in the desktop software.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by criddell on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @03:08PM (#23407382)
Do those photo editing packages have buttons for things like portrait-mode to automatically black out the background?
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by stan_rogers on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @05:49PM (#23409249)
There are equivalents - mostly plugins, but you can do it natively in later versions of Photoshop - but they're not used much. Why not? Because you can do that properly when you shoot the image instead of faking it later.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by criddell on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @06:34PM (#23409739)
> Because you can do that properly when you shoot the image instead of faking it later.

Are you saying you can carry a black sheet with you everywhere or that the DSLR can replace the background dynamically when you shoot?

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by stan_rogers on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @07:19PM (#23410214)
It's not at all difficult to drop a background out to black if that's what you want to do. But that's not what "portrait mode" means to most people - that would be more about shallow depth of field and lighting emphasis - and you mentioned nothing about background swaps in your original comment. (By the way, background swaps were something I could do with film and proper shooting. Masks are easy to make if you're shooting with them in mind, whether they're layer masks in software or litho masks in the darkroom. We weren't exactly snapping with our Brownies and sending things to the drugstore back in the old days either, you know.)
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by criddell on Thursday June 04, 2020 @08:41AM (#23415809)
I was specifically talking about computational effects like the one Apple calls portrait mode that can black out the background. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about that.

My whole point in this thread was that nobody in the big body camera world seems to be doing much with computation or multiple sensors. I think it's astonishing what Apple, Google, and Sony have done with small lenses and sensors and would be interested to see what they could do with big lenses and sensors.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by thisisnico on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @01:14PM (#23405892)
I agree with this. If I buy a modern DSLR, utilizing the same tech as phones with automatic image optimization, I can only imagine how incredible the quality of the Image be by default. It's possible, but they really need to devote the engineering resources to this.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by NikolaNovak on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:07AM (#23404187)
Absolutely.

Equipment may pose constraints on what you can feasibly do (though fewer than people think).

How and what you then do within these constraints is largely up to you.

Will AI increasingly get better and better framing, colours, processing, etc? Most definitely. For the immediate future though, the emotion and ideas of talented, innovative photographers will still stand above.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by EvanAnderson on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:25AM (#23404394)
Videos like the "Pro Photographer Cheap Camera"[1] series do a good job of illustrating just how true this is.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL7ECB90D96DF59DE5

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by vmception on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:42AM (#23404651)
I used to be obsessed over image clarity and sharpness, and now I'm not. When using a DSLR or EVIL camera with a traditional body, I tend to degrade image quality in post for added charm.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by kqr on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @09:06AM (#23402878)
As someone who does know a lot about photography, I can tell you that you sure can give off an impression of knowing a lot about photography.
Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by slantyyz on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @09:41AM (#23403226)
I have found that a lot of people who aren't into photography tend to draw a positive impression of a person's photographic knowledge/skill based on that person's gear (bigger, more accessories, expensive appearance).

But then again, I have also found that a lot of people who are into photography will draw a negative impression of a person's knowledge/skill based on that person's gear (sensor size, brand preference, lens choices).

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by gen220 on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @10:59AM (#23404074)
I find it's like programmers arguing about laptops.

At the end of the day, you're arguing about something that you want to "get out of your way" as much as possible. All that time you spend arguing, you could spend programming or learning.

Imagine if you were sitting next to a reincarnation of Ken Thompson at a local coffee shop... who cares if he's typing into a surface pro? The writing and the writer are the important things. In photography, it's the shooter, the subject, and the choice of frame. Gear-ogling is fun to geek over, but past a certain low threshold, it's a waste of everyone's time.

I had a friend who got a chance of a lifetime to go on a photography trip to Mongolia with a pro who had worked for Nat Geo. The dude had some seriously impressive gear. He was kind enough to lend some of it to my friend, who loves to geek out over these things, while the pro used more enthusiast-accessible glass. Shiny gear is nice, but it's best thought of as a set of interchangeable tools.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by slantyyz on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @11:04AM (#23404143)
I don't know what it is, but people want other people to be like them.

You can substitute anything in the place of "laptops" - programming languages, methodologies, coffee, barbecue sauce, diets, exercise etc.

Re:Thoughts on cameras in the age of excellent cell phone ph... by crispyporkbites on Wednesday June 03, 2020 @09:12AM (#23402944)
The more you know, the more you know you don't know.