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Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by barking on Friday May 29, 2020 @04:46AM (#23347747)
There's lots of countries you maybe should vent your anger on before Britain, one of the most multicultural countries in the world. Maybe India with its racist caste system. Maybe any number of countries in Asia or Africa which have modern day slavery and racist policies.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by jboog on Friday May 29, 2020 @07:05AM (#23348554)
Quite ironic you are using India's caste system as an example of how primitive and un-just the society and how great Britain is when Britain is the very reason the caste system exists as it does today. Prior to British rule, castes were not widely understood along the Indian subcontinent and was one of many social demographic markers for Indians until Britain made it THE defining characteristic.

From the BBC:

"In fact, it is doubtful that caste had much significance or virulence in society before the British made it India's defining social feature."

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-48619734

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by legolas2412 on Friday May 29, 2020 @09:12AM (#23349540)
Also, caste discrimination is illegal. The government grants equal rights to all people.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by hyko on Friday May 29, 2020 @05:39AM (#23348042)
That’s why it’s all the more galling; the UK is trying to build a brand around multiculturalism while issuing BS passports for those deemed not British enough.

The UK establishment embraced multiculturalism when it was flat on its back economically; it has subsequently sold out many people who were loyal to it for shameful political expediency, e.g. the Ghurka and Windrush scandals: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gurkha_Justice_Campaign https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_scandal

It’s an obvious chance to parlay some good from the UK’s colonial legacy, why would anyone oppose it?

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by barking on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:39AM (#23348385)
What are your country's policies around the issuing of passports? As for immigrants building the country up, for what it's worth, Britain is probably lower in the world rankings in terms of wealth per capita than it was before large scale immigration from the former colonies began. Immigration gives you more people, that's all we can say for certain about its effects.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by toyg on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:54AM (#23348483)
> Britain is probably lower in the world rankings in terms of wealth per capita than it was before large scale immigration

Citation needed. I seriously doubt your balance of probabilities.

Britain pre-Windrush was on its knees.

Britain pre-EEC was "the sick man of Europe".

Please bring up some actual numbers to back your reactionary talking points, at the very least.

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by barking on Friday May 29, 2020 @07:00AM (#23348518)
1960 Britain had the 4th largest economy in the world. 2015 it has the 5th largest economy in the world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_largest_h...

The United Kingdom represented 6.42% of the world's economy in 1960 (highest point), falling to 3.42% in 2012 (lowest point). It accounted for 5.2% of the world's economy in 1820, 9.1% in 1870, and 8.3% in 1913. England, Scotland and Wales generated 1.8% of the world's GDP in 1600

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by toyg on Friday May 29, 2020 @10:35AM (#23350371)
> The United Kingdom represented 6.42% of the world's economy in 1960 (highest point)

Windrush arrived in 1948. That "mass immigration" is literally what brought Britain to its highest point.

Then the rest of the world was de-colonized, started working for themselves rather than for Europe, and here we are.

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by oblio on Friday May 29, 2020 @10:19AM (#23350234)
Lowest point? You were the cradle of the Industrial Revolution! Sorry to break the news to you, but as more countries industrialize, Britain's relative position will only go down. 1960 was the high point from this perspective. On the other hand, the UK will still be a developed country.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by hyko on Friday May 29, 2020 @07:48AM (#23348820)
Do you genuinely believe that this drop in relative output was caused by inward migration, considering all the other historical factors?
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by barking on Friday May 29, 2020 @08:02AM (#23348937)
You're trying to put words in my mouth. You're the one who was making claims.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by smcl on Friday May 29, 2020 @08:26AM (#23349140)
Well these are your own words: "Britain is probably lower in the world rankings in terms of wealth per capita than it was before large scale immigration"

So the question again is: Do you genuinely believe that this drop in relative output was caused by inward migration, considering all the other historical factors?

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by barking on Friday May 29, 2020 @08:59AM (#23349386)
Say you said using Wonderhair would prevent baldness and I said that there was no evidence for that and that in fact in the cases that I know of the people now have less hair than they had when they started using Wonderhair. Do I then have to defend myself from questions that infer I believe that Wonderhair causes hair loss?
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by smcl on Friday May 29, 2020 @09:56AM (#23350007)
If you're in a discussion where you write a comment that looks like you're saying "immigration is a cause of long-term economic decline" and someone asks if that's what you're saying ... then yes you should probably clarify whether this is an accurate interpretation of your comment

I'm not sure why you're coming up with a fictional hair-care product. If you aren't comfortable sharing your answer, then that's fine.

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by barking on Friday May 29, 2020 @10:42AM (#23350451)
Quite a lot of innuendo in there. The person I responded to suggested that Britain only welcomed immigrants to help it because it was "on its back economically". I suppose that all would have been fine if, at worst, Britain was ranked exactly the same today as it was then but because it's actually ranked slightly lower (as I'd expected) the inference now is that I'm anti-immigration. Squeeze a bit more from the tube and you can openly brand me a racist and then you win. Anticipating that I might not oblige, you added your last sentence as insurance to cover that eventuality.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by hyko on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:10PM (#23356140)
I made that claim and I stand by it. Britain in 1945 was effectively broke and seeking to plug massive holes in its workforce. That’s the context in which Britain spent its Marshall Plan money trying to support the flagging empire: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtm...

I’m afraid I don’t understand the logic behind what you’re trying to say regarding the relationship of GDP and immigration. Obviously net inward migration can only raise the total GDP of a country. The question of what happens to average incomes is much more nuanced, but there’s a fair bit of evidence that low paid workers can be hard hit in the short term, whereas everyone benefits in the long term: https://fullfact.org/immigration/immigration-and-jobs-labour...

I am not suggesting that you’re a racist or anti-immigration, just that your views on the relationship between GDP and immigration are wrong. Besides that, they do nothing to refute my original point that we should not have different classes of citizen based on race and geography.

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by neilsense on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:38AM (#23348383)
You seem to have a vendetta against India so we'll set that aside for a second, sounds like you had a bad experience at some point with an Indian or their family.

You are talking about the same Britain that voted in favour of Brexit because they got tired of looking at Eastern Europeans? The same that allowed Tommy Robinson to rise to fame through even the main media channels? The same one that you can be called a 'paki' in while just walking down the street with your family in 2020? The same one that still has glass ceilings in finance and industry if you're not white?

Britain is a utopia compared to many countries, but don't get carried away. Also, don't half-understand things about other nations and then try and sell them over her as fact. You are out of your depth.

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by barking on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:53AM (#23348473)
I don't have a vendetta against India, that's way OTT sensitivity on your part. And if you're going to accuse me of having a simplistic view of India then I'll respond to you by saying your comments on Britain are risible. Tommy Robinson's rise to fame is somehow to be taken as a criticism of Britain. The man's notorious, and has served prison time for it. Does it reflect badly on a country that such a man exists? The rest of your criticisms are similarly simplistic.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by vixen99 on Friday May 29, 2020 @08:50AM (#23349326)
'because they got tired of looking at Eastern Europeans'. All sixteen million of them. Seeing the world in such crude categoric terms makes for a simple life I guess.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by badrabbit on Friday May 29, 2020 @08:45AM (#23349291)
In human history, I don't think anyone comes close to Britain when it comes to spreading systems that implement race based divisions. They may not have been lynchy like the US or chopping off limbs like belgium but they are remarkably efficient at spreading systems that show them as superior and civilized because of their skin. Slavery in US colonies,caste system in india,apartheid rule in South Africa come to mind as good examples and as diverse as the UK maybe, there are still strong elements of it that hold onto the "we don't want to exterminate people but we are still superior because of our skin color" mentality. The French from what I know were not as efficient at implementing explicit systems like this. The spanish empire perhaps comes close in efficiency and similarity but not when you look at the scale and spread of the british empire.

My suspicion is the rise of darwinism (who was a brit) intersected with the rise of colonialism. Colonizers may not have been too accepting of the whole "everyone comes from adam and eve" narrative when they met locals they deemed to be savages and inferior. Not that I am saying darwinism is the cause,just that their greed and arrogance thrived on any ideology that can be abused to help them with their goals.

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by blackrock on Friday May 29, 2020 @09:06AM (#23349473)
To add to this, the reason why the British and American system of slavery, was so evil and morally bankrupt, was because it institutionalized the racism.

We know that throughout human history, there had always been slaves. Whether they were from war conquests, prisoners, or what not. And maybe, some of them eventually got their freedoms, after serving for a term. Basically, they came and went, and no one thought anything of it.

But, what truly made the British and American system of slavery so evil, was that it became codified into laws. And written on papers, and enforced by the military, and police. And financed by the banks. This was truly, predatory capitalism, of the highest order. Thus, slavery became institutionalized.

This elevated slavery, from something that unfortunately happened to random people like prisoners, to completely enslaving, subjugating, humiliating, and genociding, a specific race of people, purely based on the color of their skin. And all this, happened in a democracy.

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by badrabbit on Friday May 29, 2020 @01:16PM (#23352691)
Yup. Once it becomes formalized people accept it. The holocaust is a good example but China's treatment of Uighur's right now is another example, the average Chinese supports what the government is doing because "they're in a cult" or "why hold radical beliefs". It's official and authorities support it. There is evil and there is evil caused and enforced by an authority the people approve of,the society at large is responsible.
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Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by eklavya on Friday May 29, 2020 @07:52AM (#23348855)
I am aN Indian and a Hindu. Could you elaborate how reincarnation and caste system are related?
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Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by quantummkv on Friday May 29, 2020 @08:38AM (#23349224)
Where did you read that? There is nothing as such mentioned in any ancient Indian text. Nor does anyone in India today believe in something like this.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by barking on Friday May 29, 2020 @09:14AM (#23349563)
The caste system is the division of Hindu society into groups based on rank, wealth and/or occupation. Everyone must be a part of the lowest caste (Shudra) in at least one life. One will move through the caste system through reincarnation based on karma. To reach moksha (enlightenment), one must be at the highest caste (Brahmin). The caste system is outdated and is no longer legally used in India; however, some Hindus still believe in it.

https://modernguidetohinduism.weebly.com/the-caste-system.ht...

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by dang on Saturday May 30, 2020 @04:41AM (#23359563)
Please don't perpetuate religious flamewar on HN.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by valarauko on Friday May 29, 2020 @10:58AM (#23350670)
I would suggest that the opinions on caste you're drawing from are highly incomplete, and driven by 19th century European scholarship. Hindu scriptures talk about varna, while the British formalized and elevated the unrelated and overlapping system of jati identity as the most important identity. When people think of caste today, they're thinking of jati, which are absent in the Hindu scriptures.

I would suggest that 19th Century Indologists conflated and confused two different types of descriptions of caste hierarchy in the Hindu canon. The Vedas, Upanishads, and Puranas are descriptivist, and rather matter of factly report a stratified society, where privilege and wealth was inherited largely within the family. This is no different than any other Iron Age society anywhere in the world.

There is also a prescriptivist strain within the canon, that suggests that the status quo is indeed optimal. The varna system described in the scriptures is not too dissimilar from the paradigmatic society of Plato's Republic: a hierarchy based on rule by Philosopher-Kings, and a division of society led by people best suited to it. Each person has innate qualities that endear them to one or the other major occupations, and society is most harmonious when people do the jobs best suited to them. The Vedas also suggest that these traits are largely familial, though this is not watertight. The scriptures are full of examples of people who transcend the varna of their family, and conversely there are no shortage of wicked brahmins and kshatriyas. Nor does the historic record show varna as a hindrance to social mobility in Ancient India. The Shunga dynasty was founded by a Brahmin, and the fabled Nanda dynasty by an erstwhile barber. The most famous of all ancient Indian dynasties, the Mauryan, was founded by a former slave, who belonged to a lineage of lowly peacock hunters. For contemporary Indians, these kings were not interlopers, but rather their military prowess proved that they were indeed Kshatriyas. The son of a Kshatriya King will likely be a king, but not always, nor must a king always be the son of a kshatriya. Usually, but not always. Indeed, the Bhagavata Gita, the definitive text for Hindus, states that all humans are born as shudras, or lowly, and it is their qualities and actions in life that elevate them. The British, however, took an obscure text, the Manusmriti, and used that as the authoritative matter on caste. The manusmriti is indeed vitriolic about keeping societal classes separate, but the class of smriti texts have no inherent authority.

As to the point that enlightenment is open only to brahmins, the considered opinion of the acharyas is that this is not true, and I can only think of a single textual example where this is a stated opinion of a (minority) Hindu school. A 16th century compendium of religious sects by a Gaudiya scholar stated that another school (madhva) held that enlightenment is open only to demigods and brahmins, and is understood more as a criticism of their beliefs. Every school after the bhakti movement of the 8th century has explicitly stated that worship and moksha is open to all, regardless of caste, or gender. I think the confusion arises from debates starting from the 8th century, if moksha is only possible for sanyasis, or renunciates. Sanyasis can be from any caste, or any gender. Some schools did indeed believe that renunciation is a necessary prerequisite to enlightenment, and is not possible for the lay public.

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by quantummkv on Friday May 29, 2020 @09:57AM (#23350010)
The website you linked is run by some random person that has zero credibility and references. A google search turns up 5 biology papers - https://scholar.google.co.in/scholar?q=Naama+Nofech-Mozes&hl...

Worst of all, it does not cite a single authoritative source. NOT a single acknowledged source.

I have seen low effort papers written by middle school students with better citations than this nonsense.

I just feel sorry of you at this stage.

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by jacobush on Friday May 29, 2020 @07:41AM (#23348780)
And the British enforcement of it during the colony years.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by lern_too_spel on Friday May 29, 2020 @04:52AM (#23347782)
Unlike BN(O)/BOC, India's caste system isn't supported by law.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by barking on Friday May 29, 2020 @04:59AM (#23347827)
True but it definitely doesn't do much to stamp it out. In Britain, if you want to see racism, try being a white boy dating a non-white girl. If she's black, black males in general won't like it and if she's Indian, her family will almost definitely not like it.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by morsch on Friday May 29, 2020 @05:41AM (#23348055)
That sounds like an equitable union between sexism/mysoginy and racism.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by lern_too_spel on Friday May 29, 2020 @05:04AM (#23347856)
> In Britain, if you want to see racism, try being a white boy dating a non-white girl

Try being a non-white boy dating a white girl. Do you think racism doesn't rear its head in that case?

In any case, this is pretty blatant whataboutism. The article is about the UK, not about other countries, and racism in other countries does not make racism in the UK less bad.

Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by barking on Friday May 29, 2020 @05:13AM (#23347904)
Sure it does but families from certain non native communities in the UK will go to extreme extents to break up such relationships.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by lern_too_spel on Friday May 29, 2020 @05:23AM (#23347965)
Families from certain native communities in the UK will do that, too. They just call it "nativism" instead of "racism."
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by barking on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:30AM (#23348342)
Which native communities would those be? Your comment does not sound like that of someone overly familiar with the UK. Nativist for example is not a term used in the UK.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by zo1 on Friday May 29, 2020 @07:36AM (#23348751)
Interesting choice of words... White Boy, Non-White girl, black male? This is the same sort of non-sense that the Feminists were warning the world about decades ago: How stereotypes and other bad properties are built-in to the culture and language, and we should address them. We seem to have all too easily forgotten that and simply replaced them with new forms of sexism and racism.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by barking on Friday May 29, 2020 @08:04AM (#23348952)
What words should I have used?
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by chii on Friday May 29, 2020 @04:56AM (#23347810)
being supported by cultural norms is worse than being supported by law. Laws can be overturned by a stroke of the pen. Cultural norms still persist after the law is overturned. Case in point: black racism and prejudice in the USA.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by techie128 on Friday May 29, 2020 @06:03AM (#23348181)
Cultural norms typically dictate laws and not the other way round. Case in point: The US constitution granted Women right to vote on August 26, 1920 when the Nineteenth Amendment was adopted. And no, it did not happen with a "stroke of a pen". The movement began in 1771 and their rights finally enshrined in the US Constitution in 1920 (~150 years).
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by lern_too_spel on Friday May 29, 2020 @04:58AM (#23347826)
Are you suggesting that the current situation for blacks is worse than when there were Jim Crow laws? When racist laws are in place, there are also cultural norms that exist with them.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by PakG1 on Friday May 29, 2020 @05:05AM (#23347861)
It's better, but problems obviously still exist.
Re:U.K. Plans Citizenship for Hong Kong Residents in Row wit... by lern_too_spel on Friday May 29, 2020 @05:21AM (#23347962)
I didn't disagree with that. The point is that when there are racist laws, the situation is strictly worse than when there are only racist cultural norms because the former does not exist without the latter.