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Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by kar1181 on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:03PM (#23273511)
I completely understand why things are going the way they are as our computing environment has become ever more hostile. But I am very nostalgic for the time where I would power up a Vic-20 and within seconds be able to get to work.

Teaching my daughter to program on a modern computer, we spend more time bootstrapping and in process, than we do in actual development.

Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by tragomaskhalos on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:17PM (#23273690)
That computers are just slower to interact with now is such a truism that we hardly remark upon it any more. It seems utterly insane that in the early 90's I could just run Windows 3.1 on a bit of kit that in all likelihood wouldn't even power a toaster today, and the experience was, well, frictionless. I don't recall ever thinking "wtf is this thing doing?", whereas today, by contrast, if I have the audacity to be afk for long enough for my Windows 10 box to go sleep I know I am in for an infuriating waste of minutes' worth of disk thrashing before the bloody thing even deigns to reacknowledge my existence.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by karatestomp on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:35PM (#23273933)
I remember being able to watch network traffic and if you (or some other actual person on you network) weren't doing anything nothing would be there. Yes even if you had a few webpages open but weren't clicking anything. Now your machine's "idle" and you capture on your network interface and it scrolls at hyperspeed.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by kar1181 on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:45PM (#23276095)
I've been doing some network programming lately, specifically low level raw socket work. Sitting there with wireshark running the sheer volume of traffic with applications dialing home was kind of shocking.

I mean, I know it's happening, I (sadly) expect it to happen now. But seeing all the bits whizzing over the wire brought home just how much your machine is reporting about what you're up to.

Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by dvfjsdhgfv on Friday May 22, 2020 @01:09PM (#23274406)
This is upsetting for me, too. And for a few others. But actually very few people care because they just don't see it. The people who designed it this way take care that users at large have no idea what is going on.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by saagarjha on Friday May 22, 2020 @01:46PM (#23274874)
It's really very sad, because users have no idea what is going on and there is no incentive for bad programs to improve (actually, there is generally incentive in the opposite direction, because it's work to write well-behaving apps). Users just know that they need to keep buying new computers and that their battery life is worse, but they can't figure out why so they point fingers at everyone but who they should actually be blaming.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by karatestomp on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:36PM (#23275401)
Remember when shitty user-hostile spying wasn't a library you included that assured you in its readme it was "made with [heart] in California"? Ah, the days when only criminals and bigcos casually engaged in shady crap.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by saagarjha on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:11PM (#23275764)
That's a somewhat unrelated discussion, but yes, I am not very happy with the current state of software where people think they are entitled to out-out analytics information coming off my machine.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by dvfjsdhgfv on Friday May 22, 2020 @06:54PM (#23278002)
Well, I remember the days when a message in Windows cropped up saying (standard at the time when a program crashed): "Do you want to send the error report to Microsoft" and my boss called me, asking a bit concrened, "Please, tell me honestly, what do you think - should we send them this error report?"
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by blyry on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:33PM (#23273897)
I switched to a linux desktop full time last week because of this exact problem. VPN w/ windows would flake out on me all the time, and I got sooo tired of just...waiting. Remember when windows search worked? Like, you could press the windows key, type what you were looking for and find it? Quickly?

Being able to turn the computer on, type in my password and have it be just..ready is so incredibly refreshing. Having a terminal with 0 latency, where copy/paste is sane? Worth a zillion dollars to me right now.

Currently playing with opensuse tumbleweed, i'll probably get frustrated by something and move to arch, so I can fix that something and also be frustrated by a hundred other things.

Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by cjsawyer on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:20PM (#23275228)
Windows search turning into bing search is one of the most frustrating little things. You used to be able to instantly pull up files by name but now it just dumps you random garbage from the internet.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by 1123581321 on Saturday May 23, 2020 @01:48PM (#23284897)
It’s still really fast if you disable Cortana and Internet search results. I launch most programs by hitting the windows key, a few characters and enter.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by cjsawyer on Saturday May 23, 2020 @07:12PM (#23287470)
I’ll look into it, I would love to have that functionality back
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by fetbaffe on Friday May 22, 2020 @01:46PM (#23274875)
Rumors on the internets have spoken positively about Opensuse Leap & Tumbleweed, any truth to that?
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by blyry on Friday May 22, 2020 @05:08PM (#23277066)
I don't have a ton of experience with other options, but 2 weeks in and tumbleweed has been pretty plug and play! 0 issues getting my netcore/python/golang/docker dev stack up. I get a weird popping noise in my usb dac at the login screen but that's the only issue I've had so far. Teams screen sharing even works perfectly! I chose it over Ubuntu 20 because I knew I wanted kde and it seems like a first class citizen in tumbleweed, while still being vaguely stable. Not-quite-bleeding edge! I ran freebsd/kde for fun back in the halycon days of lamp stack and gnome never felt...right to me when I would test drive Ubuntu desktop.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by fetbaffe on Sunday May 24, 2020 @06:57AM (#23290691)
Good to know. Personally I think that Ubuntu has gone downhill. I preferred unity over gnome. On a fresh install of Ubuntu, gnome is confusing with it's split with two taskbars that has some overlap in functionality.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by ChuckNorris89 on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:59PM (#23275640)
Another vote from me for tumbleweed.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by WrtCdEvrydy on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:28PM (#23273841)
I call this 'Outsourcing the cost of development to the user'...

Getting knowledgeable people costs money so we build more abstractions that lower the cost of development and pass the costs of development from the company to the user in the form of requiring more hardware to do the same thing.

How come I need 16Gb of RAM these days when 8Gb did it yesterday? How come my phone needs 4Gb of RAM while my 2012 tablet had 1Gb? Sure the hardware is cheaper but we're still not using the hardware to it's fullest.

Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by karatestomp on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:46PM (#23274072)
My 256MB RAM, 900Mhz Duron machine (single core, naturally) in ~2002 (IIRC?) could do just about everything my modern one can. We even had video chat! It was just much lower res. The limiting factor in online stuff was, by far, connection speed, not the power of my hardware. That was about the point where the hardware was fast enough and had enough memory that I could multitask in a modern way without hitting problems like popping/stuttering audio or bad swap issues. Aside from legitimate increases in memory use for higher-res media, most everything since then, from my perspective, has been pure bloat. Why does 16x that memory and two cores at double the clock feel insufficient for extremely similar workloads and software feature-sets? Fucking bloat is why. Largely, but far from solely, web-tech infesting everything.

Before that, my 64MB RAM 100mhz Pentium could usually have a couple things open before it'd hit swap too badly. I'm talking like Word and a web browser, not calc and notepad. None of the equivalent programs to those can even open all on their own in a footprint smaller than 64MB these days, let alone with other programs and the OS in the same space. Hell, how many operating systems fit in that with a GUI as capable and usable as, say, Win98se (let alone something really incredible on the performance front, like BeOS)?

Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by aclsid on Friday May 22, 2020 @01:27PM (#23274629)
I agree with the main sentiment, but I have made my peace with it. Mainly Java and Electron based apps because they do provide us with a nice thing that was impossible years before unless you wanted to become a digital hermit: Linux on the desktop.

I can now use simplenote, discord, slack, the jetbrains dev suite, visual studio code, and this is without including separate developments like Steam, which has made it effortless to switch between Windows, Linux and Mac.

That being said, I still consider Mac OS the superior OS (this call home issue from the article aside), mostly because the font rendering still works better after all these years, Windows and Mac still have better quality software available for them, and Mac still does not have the forced updates as Windows does. Also I have noticed that in Ubuntu, some electron apps like Simplenote, the copy and paste of text is funky at times, like not even letting me select stuff.

Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by coliveira on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:54PM (#23276186)
The reason is very simple: developers don't want to develop anymore, they just want to offload real programming to third party libraries, where what used to take 100 lines of code to accomplish will take 10K or more (because, obviously, the library will do the most general version of what it wants to do). All this is considered "good development practices", which means that programs will inflate to take whatever memory is available and run slower for as long as we continue to use the same practices.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by astronautjones on Saturday May 23, 2020 @12:37AM (#23279941)
and is absolutely encouraged by google and amazon, as delivering that bloat makes them money
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by valuearb on Friday May 22, 2020 @04:20PM (#23276487)
What’s the point of cheaper disk and ram, and faster systems if not for supporting higher level abstractions?
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by npongratz on Friday May 22, 2020 @06:36PM (#23277856)
To watch more, higher-def cat videos faster. No need to get lost in the weeds of higher level abstractions to do that.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by jcelerier on Friday May 22, 2020 @05:43PM (#23277391)
is this a serious question ?
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by rhizome on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:00PM (#23275025)
And now that "the web is the internet" even more than ever, developers and designers are giving us spinners/loading indicators ALL THE TIME. At least in my tabs they are.

The web is much, much, much slower than it used to be.

Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by Domenic_S on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:52PM (#23274148)
> Windows 10 box to go sleep I know I am in for an infuriating waste of minutes' worth of disk thrashing before the bloody thing even deigns to reacknowledge my existence.

Yeah, what the heck is this? I use a win10 box solely for gaming, and every single time I wake from sleep, Antimalware Executable keeps my machine from doing anything for several minutes. It's infuriating.

Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by Spooky23 on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:19PM (#23275224)
Silly user. The computer exists to update itself. Whatever trivial task you want to do is a secondary concern.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by saagarjha on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:13PM (#23275784)
You joke, but there is a surprising amount of software that does not have its user as the primary thing it cares about.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by aclsid on Friday May 22, 2020 @01:29PM (#23274653)
Just get a proper antivirus and it will probably disable the built-in security suite for you
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by saagarjha on Friday May 22, 2020 @01:48PM (#23274893)
While making your computer even worse?
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by andai on Friday May 22, 2020 @07:26PM (#23278265)
For many years, I had a very nice experience with NOD32. By far the best antivirus I have used in terms of UI and resources. Well, admittedly not that high of a bar.. but they really seem to care about efficiency and and elegance.

Considering the built in one is pretty slow (and gives useless notifications), I expect it would be an improvement.

Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by zeroimpl on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:49PM (#23274122)
I recall windows 95/98 being pretty slow to boot. I also recall being warned by teachers not to move the mouse while things were booting as that would allegedly slow things down further. These days the only real time I wonder "wtf is this thing doing" is when I'm waiting about 5-10 seconds for my mac to wake up from sleep.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by shanemhansen on Friday May 22, 2020 @01:06PM (#23274368)
Surprisingly, wiggling the mouse actually speeds up some windows operations.

https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/11533/why...

Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by TheOtherHobbes on Friday May 22, 2020 @01:45PM (#23274861)
Win 95 and its descendants had legendary poor boot times.

Things finally improved with XP, but W3.1x and W95 were anything but fast - unless you were playing Solitaire.

Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by WillPostForFood on Friday May 22, 2020 @05:37PM (#23277338)
Here is a Pentium 200Mhz starting Win95, only about 20 seconds from "Starting Windows 95" to the login screen. 40 seconds including the full powerup/BIOS sequence. Not too bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwRR7-P-8fc

Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by npongratz on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:37PM (#23273946)
> It seems utterly insane that in the early 90's I could just run Windows 3.1 on a bit of kit that in all likelihood wouldn't even power a toaster today, and the experience was, well, frictionless. I don't recall ever thinking "wtf is this thing doing?" ...

I generally agree, but I sometimes ran Windows 3.0 on a 386SX-16 in the early 90s, and often wondered why it ran so slow on my admittedly underpowered but supported system.

At some point I read (perhaps in Compute! or BYTE) that Windows made something like 20 or 30 syscalls to draw one line of a window's border. That seemed exceptionally inefficient to me, so I stopped using Windows. I generally worked in DOS, but if I wanted a GUI, Geoworks provided an experience at least ten times better (subjectively) -- smooth UI, ability to multitask, a surprisingly good word processor and other well-designed software included.

Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by andai on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:30PM (#23273857)
Are you on a hard disk drive? I have bestowed upon myself the unique misfortune of running Windows 10 on a spinny disk.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by bscphil on Friday May 22, 2020 @07:13PM (#23278158)
This has quietly become a pretty serious issue. Most software developers have simply stopped caring about systems with traditional HDDs. This is even true on Linux - I found out a while back that all the KDE developers are using SSDs, which is why they weren't fixing issues where startup time is affected by disk latency. I eventually gave in and bought a 250 GB SSD for my old laptop, there was simply no other option.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by massysett on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:12PM (#23273634)
If that’s what you really want, grab a used ThinkPad and put Arch Linux on it. It will boot in a few seconds and is much more powerful than a Vic-20.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by yjftsjthsd-h on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:22PM (#23273745)
Still doesn't give you a programming environment, unless you want to do bash.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by armatav on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:34PM (#23273916)
How does that even make sense? It’s an OS, go grab a Desktop Environment and download nvim, VSCode or whatever.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by yjftsjthsd-h on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:56PM (#23274216)
The original line that I was responding to was

> Teaching my daughter to program on a modern computer, we spend more time bootstrapping and in process, than we do in actual development.

Arch Linux does not help with this, unless you make it boot into a VIC-20 emulator or something. Arch can help with boot speed, but once you're booted you're back in a full modern OS. So fine, install VSCode and Python... okay, now you get to figure out libraries. Manage terminals. Arrange a filesystem. This is not getting you closer to the VIC-20 or C64's "boot into BASIC".

Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by cosmojg on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:07PM (#23275093)
This is very possible on Arch Linux, moreso than other distributions. After installing Arch, just run the following two commands:

  sudo pacman -S xonsh

  chsh --shell /usr/bin/xonsh
Bam! You're booting straight into a full Python environment when you turn on your computer. This is similarly achievable with other languages as well, including BASIC.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by smcameron on Friday May 22, 2020 @02:13PM (#23275153)
How about Processing. https://processing.org/
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by goatinaboat on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:43PM (#23274025)
How does that even make sense?

Because that was the experience on those old machines. Switch it on, straight to BASIC prompt in a second or so. If you want to program it’s frictionless. And you can’t break it because BASIC is in ROM.

Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by harpratap on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:59PM (#23274269)
Flexibility vs complexity is a slippery slope.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by cycomanic on Saturday May 23, 2020 @01:32AM (#23280193)
If you want that today get a BBC microbit, switch on and you're directly in a python environment
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by gorrillaribs on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:44PM (#23274047)
Doesn't arch come with python & gcc out of the box?
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by yjftsjthsd-h on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:58PM (#23274245)
No, although `pacman -Syu python base-devel` isn't exactly a burden. But then what? If you're trying to get back to a simple "turn on computer, land in simple programming environment", how does it help that you have python and gcc available? You still have to manage libraries, learn to use a compiler, and all the other joys of modern development. The only thing Arch Linux gained you was a bit simpler OS and maybe better boot times.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by Throwaeay2928 on Friday May 22, 2020 @12:57PM (#23274224)
Yes it does. When you pacstrap you include base devel. From that moment onwards your you will have a full programming environment all ready to rock and roll on your installation.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by yjftsjthsd-h on Friday May 22, 2020 @01:26PM (#23274616)
Yes, and you have a full operating system and all the joys of modern development. You absolutely do not have anything like a VIC-20 that you can power on end have a basic programming environment 5 seconds later. At best, you turn it on and 5 seconds later have a python shell, where you can do a certain amount of development before you get to experience the joys of managing libraries and dependencies. Thus bringing us back to what I perceived as the primary complaint that there's way too much setup and baggage required just to get to the actual programming part.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by californical on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:10PM (#23275763)
You can use python without needing to manage any packages -- you'll have to write most things from scratch, but isn't that the hardware BASIC non-internet experience regardless?
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by amelius on Friday May 22, 2020 @04:26PM (#23276540)
We're moving away from general purpose computing, and Apple is one of the greatest forces in this.

Also, they are a threat to a free market for software, as they regulate their walled garden with arbitrary rules and skim off a lot of value.

I honestly don't understand why a large portion of developers have so much love for Apple. I'm personally a proud owner of a desktop PC with an ASUS motherboard. It serves me fine, and gives me full control over the software installed on it. I'm not a laptop-person but I believe there are many perfectly capable non-Apple laptops out there.

Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by pjmlp on Friday May 22, 2020 @05:37PM (#23277337)
Because for those of us that care about graphics and selling desktop applications, it is mostly Apple, Google or Microsoft platforms.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by kens on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:00PM (#23275661)
At the Computer History Museum, I use an IBM 1401 mainframe (1959). When you hit the power button, relays go ch-ch-chunk and it's immediately ready to use. Because it has magnetic core memory, it even has the previous program already in memory, preserved over power-down. Computers have taken many steps backwards as far as startup time. Of course, loading a new program from punch cards is slow, so some things have improved :-)
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by kar1181 on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:50PM (#23276141)
I've spent surely coming up on years watching and reading all the content you've either created or helped produce. Indeed some things may have improved, but I sure enjoy the heck reading and watching all your exploits with 'legacy computing'!
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by gorgoiler on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:56PM (#23276214)
Watch a repl.it boot. It is the new joy, for children, to see an entire machine appear before their eyes and be able to instantly code away on it.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by downerending on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:14PM (#23275797)
On the plus side, emacs now starts far faster than most computers.
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by blondin on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:58PM (#23276237)
> I completely understand why things are going the way they are as our computing environment has become ever more hostile.

care to elaborate a bit? what did you understand?

i just can't get my head around this idea that most non-mobile OSes have become such hostile environments...

yes, the population at large only uses their phones and tablets and doesn't care much. but they would be left without any entertainment if it wasn't for those of us who still need decent non-mobile environments.

Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by chooseaname on Friday May 22, 2020 @03:04PM (#23275696)
So, the question is will people get to a point and say enough is enough? And if so, will enough people be saying it for it to make a difference?
Re:MacOS Catalina: Slow by Design? by hota_mazi on Friday May 22, 2020 @01:09PM (#23274401)
It takes less than five seconds for my Windows 10 to go from asleep to ready for work, and that includes logging in with Windows Hello (the fingerprint reading is crazy fast).