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Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by Grimm1 on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:23AM (#23222639)
There is a concerted effort at the top of our government to subvert the republic and turn it into a new oligarchy, why we haven't openly branded certain members of congress and the current administration traitors and dealt with them appropriately is beyond me. We're passed the point where cleaning house would be seen as weakness or instability on the world stage, because the current admin is weak and unstable. Cleaning house now would reassure our allies and restore some legitimacy to our government.

I'm not suggesting violence, but that our forces responsible from protecting us against domestic threats do their job here, I think the idea that the optics of arresting a sitting president and members of congress is less worse than restoring a functioning legislative and executive branches.

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by TheAdamAndChe on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:37AM (#23222830)
In ancient Rome, the senators thought that it was in the good of the republic to disband Julius Caesar. A group of them banded together and killed him.

What they failed to realize was how popular he was with the lower and middle classes. His reign had drastically improved their quality of life. His murder led to a string of civil wars and instability.

Think hard before disbanding populist figures.

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by Grimm1 on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:42AM (#23222911)
Your point is noted, but Trump is popular with less than 44% [0] of people currently and has done nothing to improve their lives. Comparing the current admin with Caesar is giving a huge compliment to them, that they do not deserve.

[0] https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by Ididntdothis on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:58AM (#23223139)
The opposition party could easily end this if they actually tried and offered a competing vision and a compelling candidate. They didn’t do this in 2016 and neither are they doing it in 2020. No need to kill anybody.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by Grimm1 on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:02AM (#23223200)
I completely agree, and while Trump is my main focus of the above comment I honestly think we need to do full scrutiny of both GOP and Dems I imagine we could hand out a lot of arrests on both sides of the isle. The corruption runs both ways and I don't find democrats as some amazing preferable choice, in fact Joe is a wet noodle. I think we need a reset all around which I'd be comfortable with being achieved by a combination of term limits and arrests for those who have broken the laws.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by Ididntdothis on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:06AM (#23223247)
I never understand why people think term limits would do anything. Instead of long term corrupt people you would get a steady flow of people who jump from industry to government, do the bidding of the industry, and then go back. The result would be exactly the same.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by Grimm1 on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:18AM (#23223388)
Because the full view is term limits + lobbying is illegal + any thing that looks like what you described triggers an investigation for something like "corruption of a public servant" + none of the money as speech + reduced campaign time + no pacs or super pacs + a few more other things.

There needs to be a multifaceted implementation of new policy.

Term limits in a vacuum are useless, but if we didn't have a government that was pretty much a proxy for large corporations we could do neat things that would make anyone engaging in that type of arrangement's life a lot harder.

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by kickopotomus on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:37AM (#23223725)
I actually don't think that we need term limits. There is something to be said for experience. Instead we should take on the rest of the policies you mentioned, but also limit members of congress to have strict W-2-only incomes. With the exception of perhaps a 401(k) or pension plan, we need to limit the earning power of a congressional seat.

I would also go so far as to say that members of congress should not be allowed to be active in the markets for some years (8?) after they leave office and their should also be limits on jobs they are allowed to take for some time after they leave office as well. I.e. they can't go sit on a board and get paid 7-figures right after giving up their seat.

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by Ididntdothis on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:24AM (#23223505)
“if we didn't have a government that was pretty much a proxy for large corporations “

I agree with that. I just don’t think term limits will make a difference in this effort.

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Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by Ididntdothis on Monday May 18, 2020 @04:12PM (#23227762)
Don’t you find it pretty sad that the Democrats couldn’t come up with somebody people actually are excited to vote for?
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by davidw on Monday May 18, 2020 @04:16PM (#23227807)
Maybe it's time people stop focusing so much on one race and get involved with everything from the Senate down to city council races.

And maybe it's time people stop treating the president as some kind of hero to get excited about and more someone with a job to do. This isn't partisan, either: Mitt Romney would be doing a far better job with COVID-19 than our current leadership.

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by metalchianti on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:57AM (#23223136)
American Patriots were only 40-45% of the population in the 13 colonies [0].

[0]https://books.google.com/books?id=xK1NuzpAcH8C&pg=PA235#v=on...

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by ben_w on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:49AM (#23223025)
44 is indisputably a minority.

It is still enough people that I wouldn’t want to see the corresponding headline.

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by joelbluminator on Monday May 18, 2020 @12:20PM (#23224447)
Well, I see his approval rating barely changed the last 3 years by the link you posted. It was 43.4% on March 2017 and it's 44% now. It means a huge chunk of the American public likes what he has been doing the last years, or at least can't find a better candidate.

I'm afraid it's wishful thinking to think most Americans are sick of Trump. Some are, for sure, but the data you posted isn't showing anything significant happened.

He will likely win again from what I'm seeing.

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by kingkawn on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:45AM (#23222956)
Trump is a symptom of a deeper cultural problem for which we are all participants. Take him out too viciously and the entire country would implode forever. Our chance is to address the problem directly by economic relief for rural poor (among others) so that the symptom resolves.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by eli_gottlieb on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:56AM (#23223108)
We can kill two birds with one stone: let's onshore a productive non-virtual, "building shit" economy, and use geographical anti-concentration laws to ensure areas outside the professional-class urban centers get a slice of the pie.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by JackFr on Monday May 18, 2020 @12:24PM (#23224503)
The way to reduce government corruption, regulatory capture and corporate rent seeking is to dramatically increase government power and give it control over a greater share of the economy.

Color me skeptical.

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by throwafellow on Monday May 18, 2020 @12:29PM (#23224578)
The anti-concentration laws seem like a super idea since it would create incentive for building a ton of infrastructure in areas that have been allowed to degrade.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by germinalphrase on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:05AM (#23223236)
“geographical anti-concentration laws”

Any examples of this in practice?

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by eli_gottlieb on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:11AM (#23223309)
https://washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/novdec-2015/bloom-and...

>What, then, is the missing piece? A major factor that has not received sufficient attention is the role of public policy. Throughout most of the country’s history, American government at all levels has pursued policies designed to preserve local control of businesses and to check the tendency of a few dominant cities to monopolize power over the rest of the country. These efforts moved to the federal level beginning in the late nineteenth century and reached a climax of enforcement in the 1960s and ’70s. Yet starting shortly thereafter, each of these policy levers were flipped, one after the other, in the opposite direction, usually in the guise of “deregulation.” Understanding this history, largely forgotten in our own time, is essential to turning the problem of inequality around.

...

>Sometimes referred to by its supporters as “the Magna Carta of Small Business,” Robinson-Patman prevented the formation of chain stores even remotely approaching the scale and power of today’s Walmart or Amazon by cracking down on such practices as selling items below cost (a practice known as “loss leading”). The legislation also prohibited the chains from using their market power to extract price concessions from their suppliers, Similarly, the Miller-Tydings Act, enacted by Congress in 1937, put a floor on retail discounting, thereby ensuring that large chains headquartered in distant cities didn’t come to dominate the economies of local communities. This did not prevent innovation in retailing, such as the emergence of brand-spanking-new supermarkets to replace small-scale butcher shops and green grocers. But into the 1960s, these and similar laws would ensure that no supermarket chain would control more than about 7 percent of any local market.

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by germinalphrase on Monday May 18, 2020 @12:08PM (#23224240)
Thank you.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by oblongx on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:21AM (#23223438)
This escalated quickly, murdering elected leaders...c'mon guys wtf.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by kingkawn on Monday May 18, 2020 @02:42PM (#23226679)
im explicitly calling for a peaceful solution that allows everyone a way to move forward together, but read whatever strawman you'd like
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by louwrentius on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:55AM (#23223097)
Exactly, Trump is an outcome, a symptom of a deeper, more systemic cultural problem within the US.

It's not only him, look at the entire GOP, and what forces are at play to keep these people in place.

The people currently in charge are there to protect historic interests/positions and they know they will lose them forever in a fair election. Because most of the country has moved on culturally.

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by frockington1 on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:21AM (#23223446)
The cultural lines with the two parties seem to be changing. Back in early 00's, I remember the conservatives were saying you can't say ______ because God forbids it. Now it seems to be liberals saying you can't say _______ because it offends XYZ. I don't know why this is happening but it is kind of strange to see as censorship and silencing has never been a popular position
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by epistasis on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:57AM (#23224069)
Liberals have always said "you can't say X" for all sorts of things, not as a matter law, but because they don't want people to be assholes. The term "PC" was invented a looong time ago for this.

The only thing that's changed is that people are pretending that it's new and unprecedented, as a way to garner more outrage.

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Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by maest on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:50AM (#23223032)
That sentence is so extreme and definitive that it's most likely provably false.

Separately, opinion polls show that plenty of people support the current US president, so, regardless if their lives have been "improved" (whatever that means), those people will be upset if the president leaves.

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by ironman1478 on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:33AM (#23223656)
I mean, has he really improved people's lives outside of the really rich or the bigoted (which makes you technically right)? I'd like to see evidence because I'm not aware of him actually improving things for anybody else. the only policy I think that he's passed that makes sense is to force hospitals to make costs available up front and public.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by Izkata on Monday May 18, 2020 @12:12PM (#23224325)
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by frockington1 on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:22AM (#23223465)
My taxes are lower and I've made a considerable amount of money in the markets. Other than that not much has changed, I'm much better off than I was 4 years ago
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by bsanr2 on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:48AM (#23222995)
We have elections coming. I am all for arrests, impeachments, and the like, but boy, it would be super helpful if we coul prime the pump by removing some of these ghouls at the top. That signals a mandate.

Many of you live in San Francisco. Your House rep, Nancy Pelosi, with whom I am sure you are familiar, has a serious challenger in Shahid Buttar. He is pushing to debate her, which should be the bare minimum for electoral rivals, yet AFAIK no date has been set. No one in the media or in the political establishment is holding her feet to the fire.

We could start there.

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Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by fennecfoxen on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:34AM (#23223666)
I'd like to close the Overton window on the sentiment, "Opposition to my preferred policies must be unacceptable." Two trillion in CARES Act spending and it's unacceptable to second-guess it? Sorry, this is precisely where more scrutiny and critical thought is needed, not less.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by srnvs123 on Monday May 18, 2020 @04:22PM (#23227882)
So now being against freely printing $3 TR, and sending out handouts is considered 'unacceptable'?

I personally know friends who claim that they'd stop working if they keep receiving handouts. And I live in Canada, where handouts are MUCH easier to come by.

You claim 'broad public support'. Any source to back that up?

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by eli_gottlieb on Monday May 18, 2020 @04:59PM (#23228300)
> So now being against freely printing $3 TR, and sending out handouts is considered 'unacceptable'?

No, referring to coronavirus aid bills as "blue-state bailouts" and running the Senate as a party-state are unacceptable.

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by srnvs123 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @12:50PM (#23237046)
I see, so you're saying that your opinion that the Senate is run as a 'Party-state' is unacceptable.

But that's just your opinion.

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Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by bsanr2 on Monday May 18, 2020 @06:54PM (#23229335)
I just want you to know that this is not a compelling argument.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by eli_gottlieb on Monday May 18, 2020 @07:44PM (#23229713)
Sure. I was stating my evaluation, not arguing that you should adopt it. If you think you can somehow convince Californian "leftists" to solve the housing crisis, bring down the cost of the UC system for in-state students, provide truly universal health-care, or strengthen organized labor, I wish you all the luck you'll need.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by bsanr2 on Tuesday May 19, 2020 @05:37PM (#23240581)
By that same token, why do we have any faith in Kentucky citizens to not vote for a Republican?

Frankly, they're both "lost causes" from the majority of possible vectors. I would wager equally so, forgetting ideology and just going off the momentum of incumbency. Unfortunately, the situation is so dire that any victory that's even remotely possible is crucial. Don't throw anything out, because we might need everything. We'll just have to throw our weight behind whatever we can until all our options are exhausted.

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by louis_pasteur on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:47AM (#23222992)
What you're talking about won't come without a revolution. Yes, a freedom movement kinda revolution like Boston Tea Party of 1800s in America or the 1942 Quit India Movement against the British. Today's people are probably too feeble for something like that. They're afraid of even speaking against the system/establishment even when they know that some parts of that system might be rotten to the core.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by kylek on Monday May 18, 2020 @12:26PM (#23224544)
It's pretty unfortunate that article 5 conventions are so hard to get started. It's the only bloodless way I see to fix things.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by fennecfoxen on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:50AM (#23223041)
> why we haven't openly branded certain members of congress and the current administration traitors and dealt with them appropriately is beyond me.

What is "appropriate" for "traitors"? Execution? Prison? Being stripped of their rights, including the right to participate in the democratic process?

You see, the irony is that alleging vague subversive activity from your political enemies and then dealing with the "traitors" like this subverts the republic, turning it into a new oligarchy. It's a very banana-republic suggestion.

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by Grimm1 on Monday May 18, 2020 @10:59AM (#23223160)
It's almost like we have laws that dictate how we deal with them and as such the appropriate way to deal with them is what our laws state.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by fennecfoxen on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:09AM (#23223282)
So for the crime of treason, you advocate death — or at least five-year prison sentences with $10,000+ fines — for various not-explicitly-identified Trump administration members. That's cool and edgy, I guess. But, well....

It's almost like our Constitution spells out how "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articleiii

It's almost like James Madison knew from experience there'd be someone who would float this type of proposal, and so codified a rebuke into the supreme law of the land, some 200 years in advance.

(Postscript. The obvious next step is for you to change your mind and stop saying these random members are committing oligarchycrimes and say instead that Trump himself is giving "aid and comfort" to our enemies in Russia. I'm sure there's some lovely jurisprudence to be had getting that laughed out of the courts and wish you the best of luck.)

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by Grimm1 on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:20AM (#23223428)
Right but, "or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort." is the part Trump is a traitor for and Mitch + a whole gaggle of flunkies beneath them.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by fennecfoxen on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:26AM (#23223526)
Looks like I called it, and wrote it in my postscript, even as you were replying! Good show.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by Grimm1 on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:57AM (#23224079)
Porque no los dos? I think they're guilty of a lot of things not one or the other but being taken down by treason for aiding foreign powers solves the oligarchy issue. I think he's pretty much walking garbage.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by throwafellow on Monday May 18, 2020 @12:23PM (#23224490)
There needs to be some sort of reset function which removes everyone from office and replaces them with randomly chosen citizens. It's too easy for corruption to continue otherwise since the pipeline has been established to subvert elections.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by krapp on Monday May 18, 2020 @07:01PM (#23229372)
What leads you to believe random citizens can't be corrupt?
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by Yoofie on Monday May 18, 2020 @07:34PM (#23229629)
I think his point is not that random citizens can't be corrupt, it's that a random assortment of citizens are less likely to be corrupt (and probably more likely to call out corruption if they see it).
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by krapp on Monday May 18, 2020 @07:54PM (#23229777)
A random assortment of citizens seems just as likely to be more corrupt than less, if it's even possible to measure that objectively.

However, it does seem likely to me that random citizens would be less capable of governing effectively in areas where actual knowledge of law, politics or some degree of domain knowledge is required.

Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by metalliqaz on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:19AM (#23223419)
Money buys all things, including support for the Oligarchs.
Re:America's Growth Ponzi Scheme by panzagl on Monday May 18, 2020 @11:26AM (#23223539)
The current administration was elected to clean house. They're just supporting a different set of oligarchs than earlier administrations.