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Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by ses1984 on Thursday April 23, 2020 @11:28AM (#22957056)
In this case it's shitty to be a supplier but isn't this great for the consumer?
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by wpietri on Thursday April 23, 2020 @11:46AM (#22957232)
Definitely not. Consumers are best served when you have a bunch of relatively equal players competing for their business, and where success is rewarded financially. That gives everybody an incentive to focus on continuously getting better at serving the customer through R&D, etc.

But if the reward for success is just having Amazon come in and hoover up the money you would have gotten by launching a knockoff, then suddenly there's a lot less incentive to invest in novel products. That's true both for categories where Amazon is competing and ones where it isn't currently.

I wouldn't be surprised if Amazon's replacement product is sometimes modestly worse, because a) they don't have the kind of deep expertise in a product that the original creators do, and b) it doesn't have to be as good to get the money.

And then there's after-sale support. Amazon's customer support is atrocious. The one thing they're good at is taking things back. But anything more complex and it's a nightmare.

Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by smbullet on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:15PM (#22957537)
I dislike Amazon as much as the next guy but let's not kid ourselves here. Consumers aren't looking for innovation in the paper towel market. They just want cheap stuff. If Amazon can make these products cheaper then the consumers win.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by munificent on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:24PM (#22957675)
Lack of competition drives prices up too.

Once there is only one paper towel manufacturer left, what is to prevent it from raising prices?

Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by spaced-out on Thursday April 23, 2020 @01:04PM (#22958155)
At that point it would be an actual monopoly, and we can break that company up.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by sneak on Thursday April 23, 2020 @02:38PM (#22959410)
There’s no evidence that that mechanism is effective any longer. The United States regulators seem to be entirely content with fake not-monopolies (eg ISPs) lying about how much competition they have, and let monopolies or duopolies fleece millions for essential services or products as long as they spend the requisite amount of kickback via lobbying.

Admittedly those are public utilities but the attitude seems to hold true in antitrust as well. Walmart is probably the best example there, or now Amazon as evidenced by TFA.

Sometimes I wonder why Walmart and Comcast are allowed to behave this way while T-Mobile is not. (EDIT: Google says “nevermind”: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/19/technology/sprint-t-mobil...)

Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by wpietri on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:37AM (#22969129)
Product feature innovation is not the only kind of innovation. Supply chain innovation provides the cost reductions needed to lower prices. And you regardless need product expertise to know where to cut costs.

As a super-obvious example, an accountant looking to cut costs at a hamburger chain might first suggest reducing the amount of meat or using old meat. But that reduces value as much or more than costs, so it's a bad optimization.

Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by baddox on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:10PM (#22957487)
> Consumers are best served when you have a bunch of relatively equal players competing for their business, and where success is rewarded financially.

That depends on the significance of economies of scale and barriers to entry in a particular market. The term “natural monopoly” (as it’s used in economics) refers to a particular market where, because of barriers to entry, the optimal number of firms is one. Two firms would not be able to produce their good for cheaper than one firm.

Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by wpietri on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:57AM (#22969409)
Consumers are definitely better served by competitive markets than monopolies, natural or otherwise. I agree that's not always possible, and where it isn't, we generally get bad monopolist behavior, heavy regulation, or both.

I also suspect the notion of "natural monopoly" is oversold and too simple. Would it be more efficient if we had exactly one ISP for the country? In theory, yes, because then we only have to run one set of wires everywhere, and we'd get rid of a lot of duplicative equipment and staff. But in practice, monopoly and oligopoly ISPs are generally both expensive and bad. I just moved from a competitive area to a "natural monopoly" area; my internet now costs twice as much for 10% of the bandwidth, much lower quality, and much worse service.

I think that's because companies aren't static entities that reliably produce goods, even though that's what most people imagine. Instead they're temporary coalitions of individual actors hopefully prodded into optimal behavior by external forces like competition. Especially so given American business culture, which often refuses to recognize ways of thinking that might mitigate the problems.

Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by annoyingnoob on Thursday April 23, 2020 @11:36AM (#22957141)
No, this is not great for the consumer. It lowers the bar for everyone. What I find mostly on Amazon in the past year or so is cheaper imported versions of decent products. The decent products are hard to find or I have to look outside of Amazon. They've pushed out the quality and replaced it with higher profit junk.

Its kind of the same thing with Home Depot. I used to be able to buy quality hardware from a local store. Now all I have is Home Depot and they sell mostly imported junk hardware. I have to go somewhere like McMaster-Carr now for quality hardware. Home Depot has not been good for me, Home Depot has only been good for itself.

Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by jacobr1 on Thursday April 23, 2020 @11:43AM (#22957209)
Different problems. One is the regulation of which suppliers can distribute on a platform, deceptive advertising, right-to-repair, and similar consumer protection considerations.

The other problem the article and parent comments are describing relates to the distributor/retailer creating or sourcing generic alternatives to the items sold by their existing suppliers and informing their decisions to do so based on the sales data from their own partners/suppliers.

This latter case seems ok to me, even if it sucks for suppliers, in the sense that we generally get better outcomes for customers. As long as the general regulations for consumer protection are in-place such as preventing confusion between brands and generics.

Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by annoyingnoob on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:33PM (#22957791)
Fair enough, its not quite the same thing. Though Home Depot has a ton of its own products now too - they are doing the same thing inside physical retail stores rather than online only.

For pharmacy items where there is some regulation around the quality of the product, I find generics/store brands to be great. For products that are not regulated in some way quality is all over the place. If you search Amazon for "ul listed usb charger" you will mostly see results for products that are not UL listed - there are probably 5 times more unlisted products for sale there than listed products - Amazon is pushing a bunch of cheap and high-profit crap at me even when I try to avoid it.

Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by wpietri on Thursday April 23, 2020 @11:48AM (#22957251)
What's your evidence that we get better outcomes for consumers?
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by bofadeez on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:48PM (#22957961)
Giving consumers the same basket of goods at a lower cost just increases their real income, purchasing power, and overall standard of living. Amazon is effectively distributing billions of dollars of charity to those who need it the most. They lose $2 billion a quarter on retail. That's $2 billion per quarter in subsidies to consumers.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by arrosenberg on Thursday April 23, 2020 @04:35PM (#22961001)
...which is classic anti-competitive behavior. That isn't a free and fair market - it's one that's in the process of being captured by a few large incumbents.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by plausible on Thursday April 23, 2020 @05:13PM (#22961507)
Except that they'll quickly recoup that "subsidy" by raising prices after they've dumped their competition.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by bofadeez on Thursday April 23, 2020 @05:32PM (#22961739)
If they raise prices then they invite an instant flood of competition and lose their monopoly. They have no power to raise prices and restrict competition. Their only competitive advantage is pricing. Amazon's only profitable products are AWS and its stock. The benefit of losing $2 billion a quarter doing retail is debatable. Would you prefer a world without amazon's subsidies given that they have no power to exploit anyone?
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by wpietri on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:33AM (#22969086)
Your theory is that Amazon is spending $2 billion a quarter even though it gets them no long-term advantage?

If you're right, then capitalism is hopelessly bad at optimization and we should scrap it. But what I think is more likely here is that Amazon's execs understands the economics of their business way better than a zero-karma free-market fundamentalist whose pseudonym is a genitalia joke.

Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by bofadeez on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @10:24AM (#23007255)
They get a long-term advantage in that their stock continues to rise. The stock is the product. And AWS enjoys having a household brand attached to it. And don't be mad that someone with a genitalia username is making a point your brain is incapable of making a cogent argument against, in spite of it eliciting a strong enough emotion for you to leave a comment.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by wpietri on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @03:03PM (#23010541)
Their stock will only rise if they eventually make more money. Meaning that investors expect them to be able to make that $8 billion/year up eventually. Presumably through pricing, because selling stuff at above-cost prices is where their money comes from.

Also, I only made fun of your username and your lack of karma because you were making absurd unevidenced claims like, "They have no power to raise prices and restrict competition." If you're going to say things like that, then it's not so much making a point as doing what Frankfurt calls bullshiting. [1] That combined with your very low karma suggests you're not really worth the time of a serious reply. Note the link in my bio: http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit

Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by bofadeez on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @10:42AM (#23007441)
And at least I don't resort ad hominem arguments. That's what happens when lower IQ individuals have nothing else to say and don't know how to deal with the cognitive dissonance that arises when truth clashes with their feelings. Feelings based on cartoons and TV shows that programmed you to viscerally react that way.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by bofadeez on Tuesday April 28, 2020 @10:28AM (#23007292)
And what do you propose in place of capitalism? You sound like a child. Why would you want to force companies to make a profit on every product? There's something called a loss leader. How about just prohibiting all forms of charity? You make zero sense.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by jacobr1 on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:06PM (#22957440)
Good question. Actually I don't have any data for that. Anecdotally many "store brand" items of things that seem commodity-like, are things that I can get the same quality as a name brand at a lower price. This is better for me, and I suspect better for most consumers in a static situation. But the market is dynamic. Does this stifle innovation of new products? Does the reduced revenue of "brand" named producers, especially smaller ones hurt? Does the price competition produce a race to the bottom that ultimately doesn't benefit consumers? I don't know. But I would say that the considerations of increased regulations of "generics" vs increased regulation of "online markets" seem to me to involve different tradeoffs.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by wpietri on Friday April 24, 2020 @11:45AM (#22969229)
Sadly, the American grocery store is not optimized for consumers, so we can't draw many inferences from it. It's true that no-frills versions of commodity products are a good deal compared with heavily marketed products. But I don't see any reason to think letting individual stores dominate that market segment would be necessarily better for consumers.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by omniscient_oce on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:16PM (#22957553)
I tried to look for a decent priced backpack on Amazon a few months ago but there are a gazillion listings for what appears to be the same backpack, only the names differ. I ended up just buying it straight from Aliexpress from where it undoubtedly has been sourced from one of the same (or single?) factories. There's basically cheap-as-chips level products, and then 'high-grade' which is still dubious at times whether the quality of materials is better or not. Middle of the pack product pricing seems to just be swallowed up in a race for the bottom or the top.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by _vdpp on Thursday April 23, 2020 @03:10PM (#22959850)
Even worse, assuming the high-grade brand is better to begin with - are you buying the real thing, or a counterfeit?
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by freeone3000 on Thursday April 23, 2020 @11:52AM (#22957281)
The Amazon Basics products I've purchased have been of acceptable quality - and at least I know they're not counterfeit.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by annoyingnoob on Thursday April 23, 2020 @02:42PM (#22959466)
I can't really argue with that.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by zrobotics on Thursday April 23, 2020 @11:54AM (#22957311)
Tip- check out Fastenal. They don't tend to have small retail packages, so you need to buy larger quantities, but it's really nice not to have to wait for shipping. They're an industrial supplier, but all the stores I've been in were perfectly happy to sell to the general public.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by annoyingnoob on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:36PM (#22957819)
If I place a McMaster order by 10:30am I get it the same day, if not its tomorrow. Easier than going to the store.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by MichaelApproved on Thursday April 23, 2020 @11:37AM (#22957145)
In the short term it creates competition and lower priced products.

In the long term, Amazon undercuts suppliers who have to exit the market. That reduces competition and allows Amazon to charge more.

Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by ghostwriter on Thursday April 23, 2020 @11:56AM (#22957336)
> That reduces competition and allows Amazon to charge more.

that never happens, unless there's a regulation in place that prevents new sellers to get into the market as quickly as they can. When a price for the product begins to rise, it attracts new sellers, as now there's a wider price range to position your competing product.

Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by dubcanada on Thursday April 23, 2020 @11:50AM (#22957259)
You're focused to much on Amazon. Every company does this just go to your local Walmart, everything is white-label. A law like this would have to be applied to them as well.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by luckylion on Thursday April 23, 2020 @11:58AM (#22957351)
> A law like this would have to be applied to them as well.

You say it as if that was a bad thing. More competition is good for the consumer, bad for the oligopolists.

Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by toasterlovin on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:28PM (#22957728)
On the contrary, house brand products are great for consumers. Rather than having to figure out if they can trust a brand for a product category that they really don't care about, they can just buy the house brand knowing that a certain minimum level of quality exists. This is why Amazon Basics products are so popular on Amazon: consumers know that, at the very least, Amazon can be sued, a form of recourse that is not available with most of the smaller brands and sellers on their platform.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by beamatronic on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:53PM (#22958044)
This is me. I bought an AmazonBasics product initially, a phone cable, thinking it would be crap. It wasn't. So I bought another one, a set of HDMI cables. They weren't crap either! Then I bought AmazonBasics wash cloths as a joke. They were quite nice! Now I find myself shopping around the AmazonBasics section first. I still find it amusing in a "Spaceballs, the flamethrower!" kind of way.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by odysseus on Thursday April 23, 2020 @02:26PM (#22959228)
Where IS the AmazonBasics section? Is there a way to restrict searches to only Amazon white label products?
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by beamatronic on Thursday April 23, 2020 @04:31PM (#22960950)
I see it as a tab at the top
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by vntok on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:25PM (#22957688)
But Amazon launching new products is strictly more competition, so...
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by luckylion on Thursday April 23, 2020 @01:14PM (#22958275)
Similarly how Microsoft launching Internet Explorer to beat Netscape and eat another Market was technically more competition (for a while, until they've established another monopoly and all competition ceases).
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by _jal on Thursday April 23, 2020 @11:47AM (#22957241)
This is a frequent trick in econ 101-style defenses of anarchic markets - play with the time horizon.

If you're hungry, a soda is "great for the consumer". For 15 minutes, it alleviates that feeling. Does it follow that everyone should consume only soda?

Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by bofadeez on Thursday April 23, 2020 @12:54PM (#22958051)
If they attempt to charge more in the future when others exit, that will invite a flood of competition to re-enter.
Re:Amazon scooped up data from its own sellers to launch com... by supercanuck on Thursday April 23, 2020 @11:45AM (#22957219)
People seem to think "capitalism" produces the best results simply because of privatization, but it is the competition that is created. It doesn't matter if the one producer is Soviet Russia or Amazon, it hurts everyone in the long run when their is one supplier.