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Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by s9w on Sunday April 19, 2020 @11:55AM (#22916688)
> The generosity and solidarity [...] have been missing in Germany’s response to poorer European nations in the south, which were hit hardest by the virus.

Germany gave away many hundreds of respirators, took in hundreds of patients from all neighboring countries (including Italy). Italy was offered money under the ESM which they didn't want. All while high ranking officials from Italy called Germans Nazis multiple times. All that although the Italian population has a higher median wealth, lower taxes, higher rate of home ownership and lower retirement age.

And we're still the bad guys.

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by FlyingSnake on Sunday April 19, 2020 @01:31PM (#22917313)
I feel you. I think the media (especially US media) has latched onto the doomsday side of this pandemic, and it's easy to sell panic porn. Please ignore the trolls.

As a Berliner, I've had the chance to see the German response from the frontlines. I've never seen such socially responsible citizens. Every once in a while my friends and family from US/UK/Asia etc call and ask me what's the secret of Germany's success. The response from German govt. was perfect in such situation, you can't help others without securing your position.

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by danielrpa on Sunday April 19, 2020 @12:43PM (#22917023)
American here, I can only dream of the United States having a response as good as Germany's. Your country is an example of a how a democracy should react in a situation like this and demonstrates that we don't need a totalitarian regime to handle a large scale crisis. I'm not saying it is perfect (what is?), but just that it is one of the free countries setting a strong standard.
Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by JPKab on Sunday April 19, 2020 @12:51PM (#22917077)
To add to your point, Germany actually has a federalized system similar to what the United States has. A key difference in this specific scenario was that the United States didn't fully trust the federalized system for healthcare and disease prevention like the Germans did. Our CDC ended up owning the development, manufacturing, and distribution of test and therefore were able to tell doctors in all 50 states who could be tested and who couldn't. I think that this is a grossly inferior model and we should have instead allowed the states to have more money and therefore more control over creation of the tests.

I think that the big issue that was exposed was not lack of centralization but too much of it with the wrong organizations. A nation of 330 odd million is much harder to govern especially in a centralized manner.

an additional question I have is what do you think has been so awful about the United States response? From a pure numbers perspective I feel like the US isn't really doing badly from a per capita basis.

Nobody has run out of ventilators yet. Infection rates are below the 95% confidence interval of the original models. Just curious as to your perspective. Do you think that these numbers are due to bad models and luck or due to the fact that the population has largely adhered to social distancing?

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by danielrpa on Sunday April 19, 2020 @01:54PM (#22917498)
I don't want to get into partisan politics, but the US central authorities weren't serious about the problem until relatively late in the process, and our testing ramp up was also very slow. The move to block travel from China was well timed, but it can arguably be seen as more influenced by geopolitics than health concerns.

The US now is catching up fairly well as the country started playing on its strengths, such as the extremely strong industrial base, financial power and, for better or worse, international leverage.

Regarding the more centralized system, it has advantages and disadvantages. The advantage of Germany's central coordination is that it made generally good decisions from the get go, so the country was able to move quicker. The US had a confused central response and the states were able to implement local fixes that prevented the entire system from falling apart.

So I think the US model has the advantage of offering a second layer of defense from poor central planning, which perhaps wouldn't be as easy in Germany (I'm speculating here, I don't know much about Germany democratic guards against bad central decisions).

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by notechback on Sunday April 19, 2020 @04:46PM (#22918662)
You misunderstood the parent poster. Germany's healthcare system is very decentralised; Germany had 16 states which have large legal, financial, etc independence in a number of fields such as healthcare it education.

A key difference though is that most of German healthcare is public; there are very few private clinics and those play no major role in the pandemic response.

Insurance is mandatory but cheap (and independent of employment). Healthcare is accessible no matter your budget and maybe in the pandemic nearly as important, everyone has the right to sick leave. You get s doctor's certificate and can stay home for a week or two or three, if needed. You also won't be fired for it as labour protections are strong.

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by anoncake on Monday April 20, 2020 @07:41PM (#22930189)
Unlike education, healthcare is a federal matter. However the states are responsible for applying federal laws (Art. 83 Basic Law).
Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by seppel on Sunday April 19, 2020 @04:38PM (#22918619)
> I don't want to get into partisan politics, but the US central authorities weren't serious about the problem

This was a problem in Germany as well. End of January, the German minister of health still said that Corona is not as bad as the yearly Influenza.

> until relatively late in the process, and our testing ramp up was also very slow.

Ramping up testing was also very slow in the beginning and highly chaotic.

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by gnusty_gnurc on Sunday April 19, 2020 @04:31PM (#22918566)
The US had the issue of complete failure of a federal monopoly. CDC and FDA failed at the most critical time and prohibited private enterprise and states from rushing in.
Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by jakeogh on Sunday April 19, 2020 @05:10PM (#22918818)
Measured by what? We achieved better results than every single pre-peak best case estimated outcome. If you know of a predicted outcome that we havent come in under, please link to it.
Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by gnusty_gnurc on Sunday April 19, 2020 @05:19PM (#22918884)
Measured by a month of delayed testing at the outset of a virulent pandemic?

> Forced to suspend the launch of a nationwide detection program for the coronavirus for a month, the C.D.C. lost credibility as the nation’s leading public health agency and the country lost ground in ways that continue to haunt grieving families, the sick and the worried well from one state to the next.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/18/health/cdc-coronavirus-la...

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by jakeogh on Sunday April 19, 2020 @05:46PM (#22919053)
In science, when errors are made, we are supposed to acknowledge and correct them, which is what the CDC did.

Why base your opinion on a second order result rather than first hand outcomes? If we had not tested at all, and still had this _drastically better than predicted_ result, might you still be unhappy about it?

And the NYT... They are not just a news orginization. Still run by the BBC's Mark Thompson I see.

https://imgur.com/VUdcIou

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIMxvS-WEAER49I.png

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CINJUoqUwAEkSip.jpg

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by zigzaggy on Sunday April 19, 2020 @12:01PM (#22916718)
American here. This is the first I’m hearing anything but good things about how Germany has handled this crisis. And I consider myself to be fairy tuned in. Don’t sweat the trolls, you’ll never make them happy.
Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by skrebbel on Sunday April 19, 2020 @01:07PM (#22917172)
FYI you just called the majority of Italian media and politicians "trolls".
Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by plorkyeran on Sunday April 19, 2020 @01:36PM (#22917359)
I'm fine with calling the majority of media and politicians from every country trolls.
Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by chasd00 on Sunday April 19, 2020 @09:45PM (#22920415)
I regret that I have but one upvote to give. This whole experience has further disillusioned me to the news media and the idea they contribute value in any way whatsoever. At this point, I trust Twitter more.
Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by kevin_thibedeau on Sunday April 19, 2020 @06:39PM (#22919384)
How do you think they generate revenue?
Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by CaciaraAsAServi on Sunday April 19, 2020 @12:46PM (#22917050)
As a Lombard I second this.

I always joke about the love-hate relationship between Italy and Germany (Italy and Germany in the broader sense, not only the actual countries) saying that this feeling has been here since the times of general Stilicho [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stilicho].

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by majewsky on Sunday April 19, 2020 @07:57PM (#22919828)
> since the times of general Stilicho

Slightly off-topic, but you want to write "General" with a capital G in this case because you're referring to a concrete general. I had trouble parsing your sentence because I took "general" to be an adjective.

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by CaciaraAsAServi on Sunday April 19, 2020 @08:17PM (#22919961)
TIL! thanks! my native language is more tolerant with capital initials than English :)
Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by bryanrasmussen on Sunday April 19, 2020 @02:25PM (#22917759)
I am surprised at this statement of Italians having a higher median wealth, I guess that must all be the older generations since the last decade at least is all about how poorly the younger generations are doing - do you have a source for this assertion?

Also in the case of the ESM I guess you are accurate that they were offered money that they didn't want, but you didn't note why they didn't want it, which I guess is probably important https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-...

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by s9w on Sunday April 19, 2020 @02:54PM (#22917945)
The conditions of the ESM is more or less the entire point. They were offered the money they need - with some guards attached. But they wanted more, and not just borrowed but entirely given by the EU (=Germany). With no oversight. And they got that by calling Germany Nazis. That's despicable.
Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by wz1000 on Sunday April 19, 2020 @04:58PM (#22918728)
> not just borrowed but entirely given by the EU (=Germany).

You can't have a workable monetary union without a fiscal union. Germany wouldn't have such a big surplus if its exports weren't massively boosted by the southern states depressing the exchange rate of the Euro. Unions require unity, and if Germany feels like its pulling more than its own weight, it can exit. But you see exactly the opposite, Germany (at least nominally) states that its goal is to preserve the union, and this betrays the fact that the union brings massive advantages for the German economy. It is not out of a sense of benevolence and european solidarity, but of pure self-interest.

Well, if Germany and the North want the union to survive, they will have to treat it like a real partnership and respect and recognize the contribution of their other partners.

The current "solution" of bailing out Italy and Spain with even more debt on the condition of further future austerity will only lead to further instability, unemployment, discontent and financial ruin when the debts come due.

It is not a question of "solidarity" with the South. It is a question of whether the North recognizes the contribution of its partners to the union, and whether they can act in mutual self-interest to save it.

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by s9w on Sunday April 19, 2020 @05:04PM (#22918775)
Unified debt was explicitly forbidden in the EU contracts. It was one, of not the major selling point for the euro.
Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by wz1000 on Sunday April 19, 2020 @05:10PM (#22918820)
If that does not change, the Eurozone is a doomed project.

In a monetary union, the regions running a surplus enjoy a massive boost due the exchange rates being depressed by the regions running a deficit, while the industries of the deficit regions struggle to catch up, hampered by the lack of natural corrective forces of a floating exchange rate. If a monetary union has to work, the deficit regions have to be fiscally supported by the surpluses generated elsewhere, or they just spiral further and further into debt, unemployment and industrial collapse.

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by pinkfoot on Sunday April 19, 2020 @05:16PM (#22918865)
How is the value of the Euro depressed? It was launched at 1:1 parity with the dollar.

$1 now buys you a mere €0.92

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by wz1000 on Sunday April 19, 2020 @05:27PM (#22918936)
Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by wz1000 on Sunday April 19, 2020 @05:21PM (#22918898)
That is not how this works. The value of the Euro is depressed compared to what it would be if the deficit running regions were not part of the common currency.
Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by pinkfoot on Sunday April 19, 2020 @05:33PM (#22918979)
Ok, but surely thats true with the dollar too? Some states depress the value the dollar would have if only NY and California were in the Union?
Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by wz1000 on Sunday April 19, 2020 @05:40PM (#22919012)
Yes, it is true, but the difference is that the US is also a fiscal union, which is not the case with the EU, making it fundamentally unworkable in its current state.

https://blogs.imf.org/2018/02/21/the-euro-area-needs-a-fisca...

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by bryanrasmussen on Sunday April 19, 2020 @03:30PM (#22918185)
> but entirely given by the EU (=Germany) So the EU equals Germany?
Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by _0ffh on Sunday April 19, 2020 @03:53PM (#22918313)
Yeah, they got caught in a bit of hyperbole there!

Yet, if you take the 2017 budget [1] for example, nearly half of the net contributions (excluding the UK) were paid by Germany.

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48256318

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by s9w on Sunday April 19, 2020 @05:02PM (#22918758)
It's not gonna be 100% Germany, that was hyperbole of course. But it's going to be the overwhelming majority, as it all too often is.
Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by lbeltrame on Sunday April 19, 2020 @06:30PM (#22919335)
> Italy was offered money under the ESM

The ESM has historically some bad reputation in my country, mainly in relation to Greece (I'm aware the ESM did not exist at the time, but most of the comparisons are drawn to that in our media). The government did not want it, or so they said, but in the end signed the agreement anyway (although I don't know if they'll ask for the money or not).

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by KarlKemp on Sunday April 19, 2020 @02:13PM (#22917655)
Meh... it’s a bit of both. Nazi comparisons are just annoying now, and people outside Germany tend not to realize how much of a faux pas they are, triggering reflexes of both “I’m sorry” and “Go fuck yourself”.

OTOH the help was a bit lackluster, especially at the beginning. I’m not sure about the “hundreds” of patients —- it’s probably closer to 100 than it is to 1,000 especially when only considering Italian patients. In any case it’s fairly symbolic considering the scale of this in Italy.

The cause of all this was probably bad timing more than any unwillingness to help. As Italy was most in need, cases in Germany were also growing explosively. There was probably just too much going on, and too much uncertainty to easily part with resources that might be needed rather soon.

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by s9w on Sunday April 19, 2020 @05:10PM (#22918816)
The sky was falling according to everyone. People and politics were scrambling and panicking. And we still gave away all these resources. Italy's north in particular isn't a third world country. We still helped with all this, and it's considered lackluster? Can you imagine a reversed situation - when Germany would ever beg for help for anything? I don't understand why these expectations exist so naturally.
Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by paganel on Sunday April 19, 2020 @07:06PM (#22919551)
Ask the Greeks why Italy didn't want the ESM money (hint: it comes with forced privatisations and foreign imposed austerity).

> All while high ranking officials from Italy called Germans Nazis multiple times

There has never been a serious discussion in Germany about its failed post-WW2 denazification programme, history got in the way. Just yesterday I was on the wikipedia page of the first commander of the Gestapo, a certain Rudolf Diels, only to learn that immediately after WW2 he led quite a peaceful life, perfectly integrated in the German state institutions:

> After 1950 he served in the post-war government of Lower Saxony[3] and then in the Ministry of the Interior, until his retirement in 1953.

Like, what the hell?

Even on the economy side you've still got BASF and Bayer happily doing business of hundreds of billions each year, while suffering almost no economic repercussions as a result of their role in WW2.

One of the few Germans from the public sphere that I know of and who really wanted to confront this problem head on was Heinrich Böll.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_Diels

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_B%C3%B6ll

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by leipert on Sunday April 19, 2020 @07:54PM (#22919811)
> There has never been a serious discussion in Germany about its failed post-WW2 denazification programme, history got in the way.

I am quite skeptical as to „never“. The example you give is an infuriating one and there are too many of those. But that there has been no discussion about de-nazification is simply not true. In academia the topic definitely has been dealt with. See for example this article by the Centre for political education [0] which I consider an example of making this available to the public.

Also these efforts didn’t happen in a vacuum, Europe and Germany was in ruins, the allies wanted to wrap them up as well. Ironically the Sowjets were more drastic than the Western allies with their efforts, and we’ve ended up with a second totalitarian regime in Eastern Germany. They’ve even re-used the concentration camps.

Anyhow. I remember talking about this in school and critically discussing the History of Germany in the last century. We must not forget, we must not repeat.

[0]: https://m.bpb.de/geschichte/nationalsozialismus/dossier-nati...

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by krona on Sunday April 19, 2020 @04:32PM (#22918572)
many hundreds of respirators

I assume you mean ventilators since it would be fairly insulting otherwise, especially when considering Germany's knee-jerk reactions to the initial outbreak in Italy.

Re:With broad, random tests for antibodies, Germany seeks pa... by s9w on Sunday April 19, 2020 @04:59PM (#22918737)
knee-jerk?