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Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by slg on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:29PM (#22883866)
It is interesting to note that the price Musk mentioned was $420 per share while the stock closed at just under $730 per share today and was as high as $969 (EDIT: actually more like $900, see computerex's comment below) per share before the Coronavirus selloffs began. I point this out not to defend Musk (he is often an idiot, especially on social media), but to point out that the people still angry about this are likely Tesla shorts and day traders. Anyone who is long on Tesla likely couldn't care less.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by gizmo on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:06PM (#22884206)
When it became clear the "funding secured" tweets were a lie and that the SEC was seeking an officer & director ban against Elon Musk many people sold their stock and lost money.

It's not OK for directors of a company to make materially false statements to their shareholders and if they do they can (and deserve to) get sued. It's a bit silly to talk about people being "still angry about this" when between filing the lawsuit and today Tesla has been close to bankruptcy multiple times.

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by xkjkls on Thursday April 16, 2020 @03:17PM (#22892502)
Exactly. Can anyone name another CEO who could pull this stunt and wouldn't be immediately fired by his board? This whole ordeal exposed the complete lack of corporate governance in Tesla.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by mehrdada on Friday April 17, 2020 @12:56AM (#22896325)
Can you name any other CEO who could pull the success Tesla had thus far? It comes in a package--you cannot pick and choose. If the board (or SEC) legitimately thought a better person could run the company, the outcome may have been different.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by xkjkls on Friday April 17, 2020 @12:40PM (#22900507)
I'm not sure I would call Tesla a success. The company has racked up GAAP losses of close to $7 billion since going public, and has never made an annual profit. Whatever Elon Musk has created, it doesn't look anything like a sustainable business.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by frank2 on Friday April 17, 2020 @12:45PM (#22900566)
The stock market disagrees with you:

The market cap of Tesla is 137.2B in contrast to GM's 29.8B, Ford's 19.6B and Daimler's 32.3B.

Source: https://markets.on.nytimes.com/research/markets/usmarkets/in...

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by xkjkls on Friday April 17, 2020 @07:36PM (#22904014)
The market can remain irrational for a long period of time. WeWork was worth 40 billion two years ago. Now it's worth a negative number.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by frank2 on Friday April 17, 2020 @09:15PM (#22904520)
When you picked WeWork out from the pool of many thousands of companies valued at 40 billion usd or more two years ago, you had the benefit of hindsight, which we don't have on the question of whether Tesla is currently overvalued by the stock market.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by cowsandmilk on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:59PM (#22884153)
> the people still angry about this are likely Tesla shorts and day traders

I'm mad about it and my only involvement with the market is through mutual funds and RSUs that are immediately sold up on grant from a FAANG.

He was lying with the intention of manipulating the shares of his company. That is unacceptable behavior for a CEO of a public company.

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by threatofrain on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:02PM (#22884173)
Then appropriate remedies should be pursued, but in what way have Tesla shareholders as a class been damaged? In the net, I would wager that Tesla shareholders are still quite happy with Elon at the helm.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:16PM (#22884277)
As a shareholder, I’m still long, but want Musk to be held accountable. Incentives are important.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by slg on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:43PM (#22884501)
That accountability is more likely to come from the SEC's previous punishment than this lawsuit. It seems like many of the people here are acting as if this shareholder lawsuit is the only recourse against Musk's actions. My original comment was made in the context of that punishment already being handed down.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by xkjkls on Thursday April 16, 2020 @03:19PM (#22892518)
That punishment was a slap on the wrist compared to how much actions like this poison the public markets. Knowing the SEC won't act with real force in these situations will encourage penny stock CEOs and other characters to do the same thing.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by toast0 on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:19PM (#22884307)
Company resources have to be spent on this crap, soley because of his tweet. If I were a shareholder, I would be tired of the wasted resources spent cleaning up after his twitter account.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by dantheman on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:25PM (#22884358)
If you don't like how he runs the company don't be a shareholder, it appears you aren't. It'd be hard to think that Tesla would be what it is without him. In fact losing him, is probably the biggest risk they face.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by beamatronic on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:13PM (#22884255)
I disagree because (1) I don’t expect Twitter as an official medium for disclosing fiduciary information (2) There were no correlating news articles and (3) the obvious joking signal of “420”.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by gizmo on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:19PM (#22884296)
Then you haven't read Tesla's SEC disclosures which specifically clarify that Elon's twitter account is an official news source for Tesla.

Tesla later issued a press release where they doubled down on the seriousness of taking tesla private: https://www.tesla.com/blog/update-taking-tesla-private

So you're just wrong on both counts.

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by toomuchtodo on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:18PM (#22884293)
From a Tesla Form 8K in 2013: “For additional information, please follow Elon Musk’s and Tesla’s Twitter accounts.”
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by elicash on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:37PM (#22883950)
> the people still angry about this are likely Tesla shorts and day traders.

Why does this matter?

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by mehrdada on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:40PM (#22883973)
Because it is a shareholder lawsuit, supposedly claiming some damages to the Tesla shareholder, who happens to be doing very well. The non-shareholder community is the one at loss and would want restitution for their "damages," but Tesla, Inc. really has no responsibility towards them beyond the general rules and regulations, i.e. SEC et al complaints. TL;DR: if you bought or held TSLA due to that tweet, well, it's already above that price+market gain.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by elicash on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:41PM (#22883995)
Genuinely asking, I don't understand the distinction you're making. Weren't these folks shareholders?

Is the idea that if you're no longer a shareholder, this makes you bad?

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by slg on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:56PM (#22884130)
It doesn't make them bad. It makes them disingenuous. This Tweet did not do any damage to people who has held onto Tesla stock. It did damage to short term arbitrage seekers that were trying to make a profit by being the first to act on the news. These people were at one point shareholders, but they likely weren't shareholders before the Tweet and likely aren't shareholders now. I don't and I assume the general public doesn't have a lot of sympathy for that type of trader.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by akerl_ on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:21PM (#22884319)
The definition of shareholder doesn’t require that somebody hold the shares for a given amount of time. It’s clear that you don’t have sympathy for people who aren’t long on Tesla stock, but that doesn’t change the fact that they were shareholders, and they were misled because Musk made false statements about the finances of his company to the public.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by FireBeyond on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:42PM (#22884492)
> It did damage to short term arbitrage seekers that were trying to make a profit by being the first to act on the news.

As opposed to long term traders, who are not trying to make a profit?

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by thaumasiotes on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @09:22PM (#22885144)
As opposed to long term traders who are suing without having been harmed.

Ideally, in a lawsuit, you want the plaintiff to have suffered some kind of harm at the hands of the defendant.

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by ABeeSea on Thursday April 16, 2020 @12:10AM (#22885955)
Are short term traders not shareholders at a moment in time? Why are you segmenting shareholders based on length of ownership?
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by mehrdada on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:44PM (#22884019)
Filing a lawsuit does not mean you will win.

Yes, you can tactically become a shareholder and file suits as some people do all the time. You miss earning you get hit by a shareholder lawsuit every time. This is not a rare thing, but also does not necessarily imply they have any reasonable claim to any damages. Could be just leeching.

The distinction between this and the SEC matter that was settled is that SEC is supposed to care about the integrity of the market at large, not just Tesla, Inc. shareholders doing well at the cost of other players in the market that were misled. That's a much stronger basis to argue for damages.

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by elicash on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:46PM (#22884049)
Maybe I'm being unclear. I'm wondering why we shouldn't care about damages to day traders. Is the suggestion that those types of investors are doing something bad? I don't know anything about investing, but wouldn't they just be people who do quick trades?
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by mehrdada on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:47PM (#22884058)
"We" should, and "we" do, through SEC and other regulators or criminal investigation against the executives. That matter, however, is already settled, for better or worse. The suit at hand is on the basis of Tesla, Inc.'s fiduciary duties to its shareholders and it is hard to imagine Tesla did not do well by its shareholders at least taking a ~one-year lens.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by cowsandmilk on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:31PM (#22884392)
> Tesla, Inc.'s fiduciary duties to its shareholders and it is hard to imagine Tesla did not do well by its shareholders at least taking a ~one-year lens.

Tesla's stock went down below 200 in May of 2019, well after the tweet and skyrocketed after that. The long term performance of Tesla stock is not the result of that tweet in August of 2018 and that tweet was not representative of creation of long term value. If Musk hadn't tweeted that day, I would bet long-term performance for Tesla shareholders would have been identical.

If Musk actually had funding secured and did take the company private, recent share prices might even indicate that would have been against the long term interests of Tesla shareholders as they were betting on the long-term results of Tesla's investments in manufacturing and would have been deprived of the gains from that bet that they are seeing now.

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by pm_me_ur_fullz on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:03PM (#22884183)
Shareholder litigation isn't regulatory issue, it is totally separate, has different statutes of limitations and has no bearing on what Elon settled with the feds.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by LeifCarrotson on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:57PM (#22884616)
People who don't have stock in Tesla and profit when the stock price goes down think that Musk doing things that make the stock price go up is bad. People who have stock in Tesla and profit when the stock price goes up aren't going to be particularly mad when Musk makes the stock price go up, and they're the only ones who get to participate.

Holding a short position is similar to having a friend with a spare old car. Their lazy kid is going to get a job and their license eventually, and they definitely want to have the car for that, but who knows when that will be. You buy it for $3,000, promising they can have the car back whenever they want. But you sell it immediately to a third party. You're planning to buy them a replacement car on the used market when the car depreciates (they'll never know the difference), hopefully next year that old gas guzzler engine is even less popular and that model year's styling is considered even more dated. When your friend asks for the car back, you'll buy one for $2,000 and make a tidy profit! What happened to these folks was that the car didn't depreciate from $3,000 to $2,000 like they expected it to, that model had the lead role in a blockbuster movie and overnight, it became a coveted classic car. Turns out there are only a couple hundred still on the road, and now, if your friend asks for it back, you'll have to go to a big auction and pay $50,000 to replace it, suffering a loss 4700% greater than the profit you expected to make.

This is a lawsuit for car owNers, not car owe-ers. The owners are $47,000 richer, they don't want to sue the car manufacturer, regardless of any underhanded dealings that got it that movie role.

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by FireBeyond on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:41PM (#22884483)
If you were a shareholder who sold because you saw the SEC seeking enforcement action, your actions were directly impacted by Elon's speech, and you can argue you have losses.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by mehrdada on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:51PM (#22884570)
I am sure there will be some arguments along that line or similar, so we will see, but the situation would be entirely different had the stock been at say, $220 today.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by FireBeyond on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @08:00PM (#22884628)
The stock price today is immaterial, as it relies on information that no investor had at that point in time. Hindsight is always 20/20.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by mehrdada on Thursday April 16, 2020 @04:02AM (#22887174)
It is a civil lawsuit and it sure is material as far as quantifying damages is concerned. But why speculate when we can just wait and see the outcome.

Again, I agree that your post above might serve as an avenue to claim some damages that a judge would agree to, but to say stock price today is immaterial is just plain wrong. If the stock price had dropped to $100 today, it would have been likely that all shareholders could make a valid argument to a claim, but now at the very least one has to demonstrate that they were a shareholder at the time of the tweet, and they have taken a certain action that hurt them based on that tweet.

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by catalogia on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:57PM (#22884142)
Elon Musk encourages his supporters to view him as a wrongly persecuted underdog, victim of numerous nefarious conspiracies from established industries. Claiming that his critics are seething short sellers is part of this.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by dragonwriter on Thursday April 16, 2020 @03:30PM (#22892626)
> It is interesting to note that the price Musk mentioned was $420 per share while the stock closed at just under $730 per share today and was as high as $969 (EDIT: actually more like $900, see computerex's comment below) per share before the Coronavirus selloffs began.

Yeah, and time doesn't mean anything in markets, so that's somehow relevant.

> I point this out not to defend Musk (he is often an idiot, especially on social media), but to point out that the people still angry about this are likely Tesla shorts and day traders.

That...doesn't even remotely follow from the facts you cited. For one thing, a CEO repeatedly flouting securities rules and thereby triggering sanctions against the firm probably means that the current market price is less thanot would be, ceteris paribus, without that occurring. Just because the stock price has gone up since that event doesn't mean that the event did not negatively impact long positions compared to everything else being the same except that event.

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by computerex on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:13PM (#22884256)
> was as high as $969 per share before the Coronavirus selloffs began

Just to clarify, the stock hit the $969 high very briefly and dropped closer to what it is now far before any of the Coronavirus related moves in the market.

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by slg on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:24PM (#22884350)
You are right. I was eyeballing the daily stock chart. That $969 peak was a few weeks before the general market selloffs began. However Tesla was right around $900 when the market started to dip in late Feb so my general point still stands.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by onetimemanytime on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:11PM (#22884237)
I guess the people that lost that moment would be able to recoup. Doesn't matter what happens 2 years later to the stock if I lost $xx million due to his (questionable) tweet.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by macspoofing on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:39PM (#22884466)
... which reinforces the point of how stupid that tweet was. Two years later and it still causes problems for him.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by vardump on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:33PM (#22884412)
I always thought that $420 tweet was a desperate measure to defend from... something.

A hostile takeover, perhaps?

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by xiphias2 on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @08:42PM (#22884901)
Elon wants fast growth, which is great, but has a lavish lifestyle using borrowing money on his volatile shares.

Most people can't even handle the volatility of Tesla shares emotionally, when it's leveraged even more, of course Elon get very frustrated when the stock goes down.

He should have just waited a bit more with his billionaire lifestyle that he deserves.

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by xkjkls on Thursday April 16, 2020 @03:16PM (#22892496)
Plenty of people long Tesla via calls are also included in this lawsuit. Claiming a buyout offer of $420 a share takes all of the calls above that figure to zero
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by KarlKemp on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:06PM (#22884205)
Maybe Tesla stock would be higher today, if the market didn't need to price in the CEO's erratic behaviour.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by stirlo on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:44PM (#22884514)
Maybe, But that erratic behavior has also got them millions in free media coverage so it's not as clear cut it seems.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by apta on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @08:09PM (#22884682)
> are likely Tesla shorts and day traders

What's baffling is how shorting is even legal. It's strictly gambling and benefiting off the misfortune of others.

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by xkjkls on Thursday April 16, 2020 @03:22PM (#22892544)
Why would borrowing something to sell only to buy it back to pay someone for borrowing it back be illegal?
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by apta on Wednesday April 22, 2020 @10:34AM (#22945985)
You look at the transaction end-to-end, and what the intention behind it is. Don't get stuck in the technicalities, as that's the cause of many issues we see today.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by xkjkls on Thursday April 30, 2020 @03:30PM (#23035076)
Why is the cause of many of the issues we see today? Most all research shows that short selling is important to price discovery:

https://www.aqr.com/Insights/Research/Journal-Article/Price-... https://academic.oup.com/rfs/article-abstract/26/2/287/15819...

Markets would be far worse without short sellers.

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by beamatronic on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:11PM (#22884239)
How is their stock going up when they aren’t even making cars right now?
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by josefx on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:18PM (#22884287)
Because it was higher before, may reach those heights again and people think that right now is a good time to buy in?
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by ethbro on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:12PM (#22884254)
Because there's enough naive buyers that smart money can flood the market on their backs and swamp the short market?
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by vardump on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:35PM (#22884435)
Their China factory is not making cars?
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by asdf21 on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:11PM (#22884242)
It's mostly options driven
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by H8crilA on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:38PM (#22883957)
I am short TSLA and I wish those people stop with the lawsuits and let this stock explode so I can add at even more ludicrous prices. Elon has already done so much to discourage fundamental analysis and price discovery of this stock.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by vikramkr on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @06:56PM (#22884136)
I hope in that situation you have the cash on hand to cover those margin calls. And even if you do, a lot of shorts would be getting screwed by behavior that is unethical and illegal. I'd rather people not lose money because of blatant lies by the ceo than have the stock shoot up unchecked to fulfill your little fantasy
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by H8crilA on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:01PM (#22884171)
You're right, it is selfish, such is the nature of capital markets. I'm trying to exploit other's mistakes.

Shorting Tesla without hedging (or some good covering protocol) is a fool's game; no margin calls for me. There's a reason why the IV is ludicrous too.

And I don't think that Tesla is a "bad company", it's merely has substantially overpriced securities.

But what I find truly horrifying is how okay everyone seems to be with highly unethical and dangerous behavior when things are going up. Not just in Tesla, but in so many corporate offices.

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by secfirstmd on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:12PM (#22884251)
Of all the companies to short for me Tesla is one I really hope beats you. They've managed to drag the polluting car engine industry into the future and are continuing to lead the way. Climate change is about to threaten humanity and kill millions. Tesla and Musk are one of the few who are making positive steps to try and rectify this. I hope your money makes you happy if Tesla gets destroyed and sets back reducing carbon in that sector by another 10 years.
Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by H8crilA on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:29PM (#22884383)
The stock is not the company, and the company is not the technology, and the technology is not the charismatic CEO. The EV technology is likely here to stay regardless of where that "chart" continues, or at least is much more dependent on the physical realities of the technology than it is on the hype.

Amazon grew so big in part because of the dotcom bust which took to the grave uneconomic players from their competition horizon.

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by AnthonyMouse on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @08:12PM (#22884701)
In this case basically all of those things are wrong.

Up until now (and possibly still now), the fate of Tesla has been in their ability to raise capital to develop technology and build factories. They raise capital by selling shares or borrowing money using their ability to issue shares as collateral, so a high share price is a prerequisite to their ability to raise enough capital and therefore exist as a company. Meanwhile the charismatic CEO has been a major contributor to increasing the share price.

Without the charismatic CEO they don't have a high share price, without a high share price they don't have capital, without capital they don't exist. At some point they'll be past that dynamic, but they weren't always, and maybe they're still not.

And it's an open question whether the existing auto industry would pick up the ball on electric vehicles if Tesla ceased to exist. It's not hard to argue that they're only doing it now because Tesla is forcing them to -- they could have started 30 years ago and they didn't -- and they don't seem particularly enthusiastic about it even now. They also have a lot of incentives to avoid it, because it requires investing a lot of money in new R&D and retooling factories, and then giving up very lucrative service charges since electric drivetrains are much simpler and require less maintenance. And if Tesla imploded it would be easy for anyone inclined to succumb to those incentives to point to it as an indication that electric cars weren't a good market to be in, as a justification for not entering it.

So right now the world kind of needs Tesla to succeed, at least until they've forced most of the incumbents to release competitive electric vehicles, which they haven't actually done yet.

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by H8crilA on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @09:34PM (#22885197)
Why do you think then that EVs have a "profitability cliff" after which it will just magically work, bubble capital access or no bubble capital access? To me it sounds like you're presenting a case for why EVs are not the solution.

To rephrase the question: what will change in the structure of reality that will make EVs a great business?

To guide the answer: me currently being able to type it comes from decades of silicon semiconductor manufacturing improvements (none of which were bubble-funded; silicon is often not a massively profitable business but profitable; though those were govt bootstrapped).

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday April 16, 2020 @02:28AM (#22886719)
> Why do you think then that EVs have a "profitability cliff" after which it will just magically work, bubble capital access or no bubble capital access?

When Tesla started out, there was no model for this. Nobody had ever made an electric car that was reasonably competitive with gasoline powered cars. Nothing before Tesla was that fast with that much range. They might have spent billions of dollars trying to develop it and failed. It's hard to raise that much money when there is that amount of risk. But once you're actually doing it, the risk is proved out and there is a known viable model for success and all that's left is to mass produce the design. So now they've essentially done that for sedans and we're waiting on trucks.

> To rephrase the question: what will change in the structure of reality that will make EVs a great business?

Have a look at oil prices right now. They're a lot lower than they were end of last year. That's what a reduction in demand does. The reduction in demand came from the coronavirus, but you get a similar effect from replacing a relatively small percentage of vehicles with electric ones, because they use 0% as much oil as ICE vehicles.

In theory low oil prices are bad for electric cars, but they're also bad for oil producers, who are then making dramatically less money. And the amount of money they're making is the primary lobbying force against having a carbon tax. The other impediment is the pinch the consumer would feel at the pump, which low oil prices also address, as does a larger number of consumers driving electric cars. Take all those things together and it becomes a lot easier to get a carbon tax.

So you build enough electric cars to make the oil industry bleed enough that they're no longer strong enough to resist the need of everyone else in the world to kill them, they are then killed, and ~100% of new cars become electric. Which makes electric cars a good business to be in.

But first you have to get over the hump.

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by FireBeyond on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:45PM (#22884523)
The stock price is based on the company's activity and future potential, not the other way around.

If Tesla continues to work towards a fossil fuel-minimized economy (and to my part, I hope they do), then their stock price will demonstrate this.

If you think investors will lose confidence and back out of Tesla because "the shorts", then they're demonstrating their faith (or lack of it) in the market, not the company.

Either way, a lot of this sounds like "we don't like the way _they_ play the game". Sucks to be a (regulated) free market, huh?

Re:Tesla, Musk must face shareholder lawsuit over going-priv... by papermachete on Wednesday April 15, 2020 @07:22PM (#22884330)
These people are willing buyers, it's their own fault for not having a good crystal ball. They ought to hire better risk management.