I suspect an article in Western-style media might have been a little less quick to let the government off the hook though:
> The main problem wasn’t poor preparation, but the sudden influx of patients that would have overwhelmed a stockpile even 10 times the size available
That sentence is probably true, but it also doesn't mention the ham-fisted approach by authorities at the beginning which exacerbated the problem.
Euphemistically this is generally called spin, and is practised by every large company and every large paper with any kind of state involvement (in a very real sense they all do, even in the west). Criticising a Chinese publication for containing propaganda while being mired in it constantly ourselves is just another example of picking "what's amplified and not amplified", because it's part of a broad push to demonise China (the big scary Other).
Makes Chinese ownership in reddit even more concerning, no?
That’s a very broad brush. I can see why you might say that about US media, but can you justify saying that about “Western” media?
I work with colleagues in multiple European countries, and have had this conversation - similar anti-Chinese sentiment appears to be being spread in Spain, Norway, Sweden, France and others.
Whenever the US picks a boogeyman de jour, Europe is often not too far behind, but always to a lesser extent.
Tik Tok scares me quite a bit more though.
We've now progressed to the point where even objectively true information that isn't prefaced with "I HATE THE CCP" is considered propaganda. Imagine if somebody told you that NPR was Democrat backed liberal propaganda not because it provided false information, but because it wasn't as critical of progressive social policies as Fox News would be. That's not propaganda, that's disagreement. If you literally can not comprehend that somebody might legitimately disagree with you, and will dismiss objectively true information on those grounds, then maybe you should apply the same critical judgement you've displayed here to the media you do trust.
No, you just made that up.
I can keep rebuking you and you'll just keep ignoring it and claim that I didn't. It seems that you've reached the "denial" phase that you've described.
So far, all the Covid19 stats out of China proofed to be fake. But I am happy to stand corrected. What numbers proofed to be correct in hindsight?
Can you provide a source on that? The only "proof" I have seen people confident of is speculation based on the urns delivered to funeral homes - which IMO can be attributed to non-Covid-19 related deaths continuing during the lockdown.
Citation needed. Which numbers have been proved to be incorrect? So far, all I've seen is everyone saying the equivalent of "it's China so they must be lying".
So what kind of source do you expect me to link to?
I keep seeing people confidently claim that the numbers out of China are "fake" but I've yet to see a credible source. Could you please provide some?
could you show a single article that is not propaganda, according to this standard?
don't get me wrong, I actually agree with you. however, I would refrain from jumping to assertion too early.
Everybody's playing the game But nobody's rules are the same Nobody's on nobody's side
Some commercial or semi-commercial publications explicitly have aims of propaganda. The Guardian was founded to explicitly push an agenda, for example. Generally one tends to refer to this as "media bias" or "editorial slant" to distinguish it from propaganda pushed by governments.
This doesn't necessarily imply that all state-owned or non-commercial news outlets are propaganda, although I think one's starting assumption should be that they are. The BBC's World Service definitely serves (served?) the British Government's aims abroad, and was explicitly funded as such. _However_, good-faith accusations of it publishing propaganda are pretty rare, presumably because it's considered more useful by the UK to be a publisher of news that people will believe, rather than pushing a specific angle.
May well be nothing.
The gotcha here is not what is being said, but why it is there in the first place.
baybal2 can be quite trollish, but he gets accused of pro-China bias much more frequently. This is actually the first time where I've seen the opposite accusation.
One time, dang (who moderates the discussion here, in case you're not aware) even commented specifically to defend baybal2 and clarify that he's not a "pro-Chinese agent": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21195898
Impressions based on single comment threads can be very misleading about the character of individual participants here.
E.g. if you search for articles about Uyghurs: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=uyghur+site%3Asixthtone.com There's not much wrong with those articles, except for what's missing.
Compare with the South China Morning Post, which is also sometimes accused of being propaganda, but it does cover critical topics: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=uyghur+site%3Ascmp.com
Second, he does political reporting, in fact, he specialises on it. A foreign person is simply not doing political reporting in a country like China. Absolutely inconceivable, beyond some fully choreographed potemkin village tours.
Third, what he puts in his writing, and very overt innuendos he makes from time to time feels very much like somebody doing a "write about this, and that" job. The logical, and thought flow simply doesn't feel like a news report.
From the very beginning of his articles, he already has an argument given almost like a statement of a fact, and then he steers the reader towards that with random supporting arguments. In other words, he knows, from the start, reliable facts about current events he writes about.
Fourth, where does his info comes from? A lot of things he wrote before could've only come from a first party source. How he gets access to state events to which even internal party press is not allowed?
It is 100% clear to me that he is a part of a leaking operation, and very clumsily ran at that.
At -2 (and counting) for this currently, any downvoters care to comment as to why? If indeed this publication is a propaganda mouthpiece, then my surprise that they're publishing something that reflects badly on their medical providers should be easy to understand
Sounds like a great way to establish credibility, while throwing local Wuhan officials even further under the bus.
This is not a story about how everything is perfect in China, 'cuz that's not believable to anyone. It's a story about how Central Government eventually fixed everything with the help from Patriots, which I think is going to be in increasing contrast to the Federal Government in the US, again despite a great deal of individual heroism on the ground level and a fair amount of competence in the civil service.
Agreed. But, that still wouldn't stop the CCP from trying to deny that it happened or continues to take place, just as they're actively lying about the death count in just Wuhan as many locals reported that crematoriums were running 24/7 and urns were being delivered by the truckload daily for the families of the dead [1].
I don't think we'll ever truly know the death count from all of this on Mainland China, mainly because the CCP are trying to spin the optics away from their culpability in trying to cover it up and the censorship to do so while trying to change the narrative to suit their ends.
1: https://www.businessinsider.com/wuhan-residents-say-chinese-...
The Chinese populace aren't stupid, and China doesn't have the level of totalitarian control that North Korea has. Flat out denying it happened is a great way to weaken how much trust the population have in the state media.
Highlighting the (supposed) superiority of the Chinese approach to solving it to the rest of the world, now there's a gold mine, and you can be very subtle about that.
They're a mix of conditioned (brain washed) and terrified at being disspeared by the CCP.
Make no mistake this is a CCP caused pandemic, and is aptly called the CCP-Virus in Hong Kong: I fear anything short of having the CCP on trial for Crimes Against Humanity in the The International Court of Justice will only exacerbate the problem and will lead to further pandemics, as they never learned from SARS.
They censored the Physician calling out to the World how grave this disease was, and he subsequently died. Citizen Journalists have since gone missing that exposed the decrypted state the hospitals were in and the amount of dead were piling up and left aside.
The CCP and by extension the WHO are responsible for censoring medical professionals and citizen journalists from speaking about COVID19, the WHO served as a mouth piece for the CCP and down played the efforts of containing the contagion of both Kong Kong and Taiwan alike--the former in defiance of the CCP and Lam regime. All while spreading misinformation about Human to Human transmission, downplaying the significance of masks in helping limit the spread etc...
[0] https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/we-cant-stop-funeral...
"We need to pick up bodies when they call us. Every day, we need at least 100 body bags," a crematorium worker named Mr. Yun told the Epoch Times"
It was reported with SARS-1 (2002/2003) in Toronto and S. Korea, and probably China.
IIRC, with SARS-2, it was a major concern in Italian and US hospitals.
1. They had enough PPE (quite possible - the first place hit should have plenty available)
2. No staff caught the virus (this seems unlikely - even with perfect protection at work, some should have caught it at home?)
Also, the previous staff did get ill, partly because of changing in the dark in a small room. The current staff fixed the lighting and added mirrors.
Contamination from dressing and undressing scrubs was also a problem in Toronto hospitals with SARS-1.
I mean a lot of stories posted on HN are about how things were shit but how a hero came in and fixed things. The article wouldn't have worked if it was someone coming into a ward where everything was already great - there would be nothing to improve, nothing to be proud of, and if anything they could only talk about how bad things were. You want an upwards story, not a flat one.
What's most interesting generally about this is where criticism is allowed in China. And it is actually allowed - but the main culprits are the governments of Wuhan and Hubei region and that it's the central government that is responsible for rescuing and clearing up their act. There wasn't too much of this in this article, but there was a little bit between the lines.
not really that different from paid reviews in west, where you find in cons things people don't care about and they are just added to look less biased
It is made along the lines of Shanghai Oriental Morning Post 2.0. Without a doubt, it is an even more of a state organ media than it's spiritual predecessor, despite the mandate to push "dissenting" view.
Unlike something like Southern Weekly, which had not a single party cadre in its editors, despite being overtly party ran, but closed for merely contemplating of having its own line.
I read Southern Weekly during short stints in China a decade ago. Even it was an extremely stiff writing. I couldn't comprehend how people managed to spot "dissent" in it, except for the sole fact it had original writing not coming from the propaganda ministry, and it doing "a fact of life" reports.
Give this some thought. Were they not doing this with 100% official blessing, they would've been "rectified" faster than you can blink.