People are probably referring to the immune response. The flu shot does trigger an immune response and other side effects, so having a fever, muscle aches, etc. is not made up. I too have a far more severe reaction every time I get a flu shot than I've ever had from actual flu.

Same here. I got flu shots twice In my life and both times felt worse than any flu I have had without.

Last time my wife and I came down with what we're reasonably sure was the flu she was bed-ridden and rarely conscious for two weeks, and I was barely mobile basically only out of necessity (someone had to get out of bed to feed us and let the dogs out).

I felt worse than I'd ever felt in my life. Everything hurt when I moved or when I didn't. My head was killing me. I never stopped coughing. It woke me up at all hours of the night and took me hours to get back to sleep. I was drinking cough syrup like it was candy just to get some barely passable naps during the night. It eventually devolved into pneumonia.

By the time I recovered and came back to work, I'd coughed so much I no longer had any voice.

I'd thought I'd had the flu before, but like many other people are saying it was pretty quickly apparent that it had always just been colds. I got the flu the first time when I was almost 30. I too would be extremely surprised if your reaction to the flu shot was anywhere near as bad as a flu.

So, you had a flu shot and you were confined to bed for over a week?

Maybe 3-4 days. I have never been confined to bed for longer with or without flu shot. In terms of headache and other pain the flu shot times were among the worst.

This is interesting. I suspect you may never have had “the flu.” Many people think or have felt like they’ve had the flu, but people rarely get tested. Also, and I could be wrong, but if you’re immune response to the vaccine is so strong wouldn’t your immune response to the actual virus be much worse? What component of the vaccines you have had do you believe caused your adverse reactions?

The real virus isn't directly injected into your body tissue, it has to find a way in through mucus membranes when the immune system may be strong enough to fight it off before full on body aches.

Same question to you: The last time you had "the flu", did you get tested for Influenza? Are you sure it was Influenza and not a common cold, for which there is no vaccine anyway?

Taking to some nurse friends they say a lot of people think they have the flu when it's a bad cold. And some people just appear to not be very susceptible. Friends that have gotten the flu appear to be laid out flat for week or more.

Based on that I think I've never had the flu.

> laid out flat for week or more

That sounds about right. I did not really appreciate the distinction between a bad cold and the flu until I finally got the flu. I gained a real appreciation for why it kills weaker people.

I didn’t get the flu until well into my 20s. Never got vaccinated, either. Ditto strep throat and sinus infections. Get all of them now. My diet and lifestyle are vastly healthier now than then and I have less exposure, so I guess HGH and massive amounts of testosterone are just a hell of a drug.

It doesn't matter. The point still stands. So far he's been worse off when getting the shot than when not. But who's to say what would have happened those two years without the shot? Perhaps it saved him from a severe flu case or even death.

> It doesn't matter.

It does matter. The claim here is basically "for certain people (me), the flu shot has been worse than the flu". If that person never experienced an actual Influenza infection, then that claim was made in error.

The claim has not been made in error. If he has never experienced the flu, but has experienced symptoms from the flu shot, then the statement "the flu shot has been worse than the flu" is 100% true.

I am not claiming I had the flu. What I am saying is that the flu shots made me more miserable than any cold/flu I ever had. I am very reluctant to intentionally make myself sick for a few days every year.

That's an important distinction. You may never have had the flu in the first place.

In that case, it would be like saying "my reaction to the vaccine was worse than any infection I never had".

That is equivalent to "my reaction to the vaccine was worse than my reaction to nothing", or more simply "I had a negative reaction to the vaccine". Fair enough, there's no questioning that.

Now, if you had ever had an actual Influenza infection, my guess would be that you would prefer the vaccine. If you react that strongly to just the vaccine, why should you react less strongly to the actual virus? To be on the safer side, why not just assume that the actual virus would completely overwhelm you?

> I am very reluctant to intentionally make myself sick for a few days every year.

That's the tradeoff. Feel miserable for a few days per year versus taking the risk of contracting a severe infection and potentially being dead for the remaining years of your life.

To complicate the matter, flu vaccines are only about 50% effective, though I'm told they help even with actual infections.

I'm not telling you what to do, except to re-evaluate your thinking on the matter.

>> I too have a far more severe reaction every time I get a flu shot than I've ever had from actual flu.

Then why bother?

Some years I don't depending on my circumstances. But it's the same thing as COVID-19: it's not just about me getting it, I'm in a relatively low-risk demographic. It's about not spreading it if I will associate with high-risk demographics a lot. Herd immunity.

Also the immune response can suck, but I would think the risk for complications is still actually lower than genuine infection. I would see the flu shot as taking one for the team.

my wife and I noticed this last year's shot was more painful - she especially had soreness in her arm for close to a week - in the past years it's typically been a day or two. Now... we're both getting older, which may account for some of it, but it can hurt for a while. And perhaps some people react other ways, which perpetuates the "I won't get one cause it makes me sick" scenarios.

> I too have a far more severe reaction every time I get a flu shot than I've ever had from actual flu.

Are you sure you ever had an actual Influenza infection? It's not like a common cold.

Even then, let's say you do get Influenza, there's a solid chance you'll get pneumonia, even as an otherwise healthy person.

Most diseases to vaccinate against have are mild in the majority of cases. You're vaccinating because of the fraction of cases that are severe.

I have been diagnosed by a doctor as probably having flu, but they don't always test, and I have had pneumonia, albeit not from influenza. But please understand you're preaching to the choir on vaccinations. I'm just saying that telling people something they actually experienced just isn't real just because it's not infectious is equally incorrect and counterproductive.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not ruling out that reactions to flu shots can be more severe than actual (mild) infections.

It just strikes me as unlikely. It's more likely that people don't understand the difference between a flu and a cold.

That's why I'm asking for clarification.

I have usually skipped the flu shot for entirely selfish reasons -- that it's a hassle going to get it, needles are scary, and if I got the flu it's never that big of a deal. And I rationalized it to myself under the pretense that the shot sometimes doesn't work, etc.

I'll be more vigilant in getting it in the future.

Not sure if you are in the US and what your insurance situation is, but I got mine at some random CVS when I was passing the time, and I was in and our in less than 10 minutes.

I've received the flu shot three times in my life. I've been hospitalized for influenza three times in my life.

Please tell me more about how I've deceived myself.

Just as the MMR vaccine is less about you contracting measles and more about your spreading measles to more vulnerable populations that are unable to get the vaccine, the flu shot is identical in that regard. Sure, it helps you not get sick and/or to lessen the effects, but there is the fact that some portion of the population is unable to get the shot for various health reasons.

Edit: Instead of downvoting please tell me how my experiences are wrong. I'm very much aware of evidence and studies stating that its "impossible" to get the actual flu from the flu shot, yet I am walking proof of contrary evidence. I'm also aware of how batshit emotional people can get with regards to vaccines, and I want to be clear I am absolutely NOT advocating that anyone forgo getting a flu shot every year. When everyone else gets the shot, I'm safer. When I get the shot, my body reacts violently and I will contract the virus.

Assuming that this is true, then even moreso you should advocate others get the flu shot to help protect you.

And yes, the flu shot isn't 100% effective. And yes some have bad reactions to certain vaccines. However, I find it extremely unlikely that you got it from the vaccine and instead that you were just very very unlucky at getting influenza. It's a bit of a sharpshooter fallacy to me.

And for those who are vulnerable, then their only protection is herd immunity where everyone else around them is immunized by vaccines.

Yes. This is my position.

> Just as the MMR vaccine is less about you contracting measles and more about your spreading measles to more vulnerable populations that are unable to get the vaccine

No, this is false. The MMR vaccine is very much about stopping individual people who get the vaccine from getting measles. Herd immunity follows, and is important, but the primary aim of the vaccination is to prevent measles in the people who are vaccinated.

> I've received the flu shot three times in my life. I've been hospitalized for influenza three times in my life.

> Please tell me more about how I've deceived myself.

Here you go: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

Nope. Like I just stated in my edit, I'm not advocating that anyone forgo the flu shot, but that the flu shot is not 100% effective or 100% side effect free.

It's not bias. It's a fact. My GP is the one that has specifically told me to avoid the shot because I have a history of complications with it.

If you're capable, I'd love for you to diagnose me with some other mental disorder or logical fallacy, but please look at my medical history before you start dismissing my experiences as idiotic.

Your edit says:

> I'm very much aware of evidence and studies stating that its "impossible" to get the actual flu from the flu shot, yet I am walking proof of contrary evidence.

This is the famous "anti-tiger rock" argument from the Simpsons. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Much_Apu_About_Nothing)

You have evidence you got the flu.

You do NOT have evidence you got it from the shot.

> My GP is the one that has specifically told me to avoid the shot.

Anti-vaccine cranks exist even amongst medical professionals. Hell, the whole movement was started by one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield

> the flu shot is not 100% effective or 100% side effect free

This is a strawman. Vaccine proponents agree with these specific statements. It's well known that the effectiveness varies from year to year, and that side effects are possible.

ceejayoz, I generally respect most everything you write on this site, but I'm amazed how dismissive you are of this.

Can you point me to a study stating that the flu vaccine is 100% safe and effective? Not mostly effective, or mostly safe, but 100% honest-to-god safe for 100% of the population to get?

edit: really? calling my GP an anti vaccine crank? fuck you.

> Can you point me to a study stating that the flu vaccine is 100% safe and effective?

No, because that's a totally different claim.

The flu shot can't give you the flu.

The flu shot can have side effects, and no one with any knowledge claims it's 100% effective.

> edit: really? calling my GP an anti vaccine crank? fuck you.

I'm saying "my GP says so" isn't sufficient to contest the wealth of scientific evidence we have on the safety and efficacy of the flu shot.

edit: You've since edited it to say he recommended due to complications, which is fine, but doesn't sound like the same claim you made originally. There are absolutely people who can't take the shot for various reasons (egg allergies, for example!) and depend on herd immunity as a result. I simply contested the claim that you can get flu from the shot, as every bit of scientific data we have disputes that particular claim.

Please stop.

To be clear - some people can feel a bit rough after the flu shot for a day or so. Still much MUCH better than getting flu

It makes me feel like I'm sick for about 4 days after a shot. I STILL get it because I remember getting the Flu as a kid and hope to never get it again if I can help it...

I used to skip the flu shot because getting a week home from work every 3-6 years was nice. This year I got

I meant to say this year I got the flu and it was very bad. I realized that since I work from home now the week home is not worth it. I'm going to start getting flu shots.

It IS a live virus in many cases:

"A vaccine typically contains an agent that resembles a disease-causing microorganism and is often made from weakened or killed forms of the microbe, its toxins, or one of its surface proteins."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine

I have nothing against vaccines, but my understanding is that you CAN get sick from it.

The definition of "sick" matters here.

A dead-virus vaccine like the flu shot cannot give you the flu. It can cause "sick" side-effects (for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillain%E2%80%93Barr%C3%A9_sy..., or the fairly common aches and pains from the immune response), but not the flu.

A live-virus vaccine like the flu nasal spray can give you the flu, especially if you're immune suppressed or something along those lines.

I don't understand the point of contention - a lot of vaccines have historically included a live virus that has been stored for a while, often in a frozen and/or dried out form.

Are you saying that a lot of vaccines are NOT weakened versions of the actual virus which can give you the sickness if your immune system is weak?

Or are you saying that the commonly used flu vaccine in the US does not utilize a live form of the virus?

If you are talking about the specifics of the latter, you could be right, I am not an expert.

The latter.

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/misconceptions.htm

> No, flu vaccines cannot cause flu illness. Flu vaccines given with a needle (i.e., flu shots) are currently made in two ways: the vaccine is made either with a) flu viruses that have been ‘inactivated’ (killed) and that therefore are not infectious, or b) using only a single gene from a flu virus (as opposed to the full virus) in order to produce an immune response without causing infection. This is the case for recombinant influenza vaccines.

Fair enough. Though I do think people need to understand that OTHER vaccines do use live viruses, and that's where the confusion comes from.

> "I get sick every time!" No, you don't.

This is possible theoretically . yes?

There is no guarantee that you get lucky from flu shot at-least once.

As it's been explained to me, you don't get the flu from the flu shot, but the vaccine forces a reaction from your immune system to prepare it to fight the real thing. The way your body reacts can make you feel sick, but you're not actually sick. And the way you feel is much more mild than what the real thing would do to you.

oh makes sense. I didn't reliase that comment meant "i get sick every time" ( from flu shot). I thought it meant "i get sick every time" regardless of flu shot.

Then you were very unlucky in that you caught a different flu than the strains you were vaccinated against - there are 3-4 strains in a typical shot, but many more can come up during the flu season. Alternativey, you didn't have a real flu but a bad cold, which can be quite nasty in some cases.

Speaking for myself, I definitely do "get sick" when I get the vaccine, and it has a new strain in it. Sometimes flu shots don't change from year to year, and this year's doesn't actually have anything new in it. When there's nothing new I basically notice nothing.

However, "get sick" is a very vague term. In my case, to be specific, about 3 through 9 hours after the shot with a new strain in it, the shot site is tender and I run a small, but noticeable, fever kind of thing, barely worthy of the term but definitely a bit of an elevated temperature. Then it subsides. It is basically a minor inconvenience. By contrast, while I don't get the flu every year, it can hang with me for two weeks and knock me out cold for a good three or four days in the middle. And the shot generally covers more than one flu.

So yeah, both things may be "get sick" in some sense, but just because they both fit into the phrase "get sick" does not mean they are particularly comparable.

(Incidentally, over the past 10 years I've managed to do a lot of improvement to my immune system for various reasons. When I got the shot with a less-strong immune system, I generally didn't notice any symptoms from a flu shot at all. Everyone's different, but I'd suggest you generally should notice some symptoms from an effectual shot.)

Well now hang on...

The flu shot you get every year in USA and Europe is the vaccine for the most common flu that was seen in Asia and Australia the 6 months previous. And vice versa.

It’s a guess. If there are two common flus that went around, they pick one to vaccine for. Sometimes they get it wrong and the shot you get has nothing to do with the flu that ends up being common in your area.

It’s very possible to get the shot every year and still get sick.

There is a little bit of art in this science, a lot of people don’t get that.

> It’s very possible to get the shot every year and still get sick.

haha so I wasn't the only one who interpreted it wrong. comment means "I get sick everytime from flu shot"

Ohh... well, it should be the dead version of the virus, but the whole point is you develop an immune response. Do some people experience that as being sick-actual? I suppose there is some per person variance possible?

Normally there's at least 2 strains the vaccinate against. They've had flu shots with three strains before (around the time of swine flu)