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Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by omgJustTest on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @06:09PM (#22679598)
This article does not mention the WHO offered tests to the US before the CDC decided it should make its own[1]. This alone should have been enough to bring impeachment charges against public officials, for criminal neglect.

If the WHO had proven these in China, and you have no other alternative, it make sense to do both 1. buy tests you know are in active use and 2. make your own tests if needed.

Someone at the CDC must have been asleep or was ignored. China was shut down for weeks, the port of LA didnt have 25% of its normal volume in February and the WHO was shipping tests to over 60 countries _at the end of February_.

EDIT#1: I also emailed Dr Fauci a full week before about the short sightedness of allowing cruise ships to continue operating and while he was claiming "if you are healthy, they are fine". His office returned my mail a few days ago with a blanket "Dr Fauci is busy, and appreciates your comments" email.

EDIT#2: There is a more nuanced version of this discussion in the comments below. It is technically not correct to say the "WHO offered the US tests", the more technical distinction would be the "WHO supported leading research from Berlin, and the CDC did not. This decision lead to a delay in tests that did not have a higher number of false positives... (etc). The US generally has resources to produce these tests, and would not rely on the WHO." Either way, a test existed and the US could have chosen to take a more conservative stance by adopting the research and producing its own simulatneously. The Chinese economy was shutdown.

[1] https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/06/coronavirus-testing...

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by Svip on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @06:11PM (#22679624)
To clarify. The WHO did not offer the US tests. The Politico article just says that the US was not on the list of countries it offered tests. It never offers the US tests, because it has national labs that can make their own tests. The WHO only gives tests to countries who do not have a national infrastructure of their own to build tests.

But the WHO did recommend the Berlin tests, as it had no false positives, and was quickly able to isolate the virus from other coronaviruses, something the initial CDC test was not able to.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/16/joe-biden/...

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by fabian2k on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @06:22PM (#22679730)
Just as additional information for anyone interested, this is the paper about the development of the test distributed by the WHO:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6988269/

This was published on January 23, and it contains all the information you need to establish this kind of test in your own lab. And while I'm not an expert in this area, the controls done to ensure avoiding false positives based on other viruses seem pretty thorough to me. And this validation is the part that I would suspect to be one of the more time-consuming and important aspects.

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by kiba on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @07:00PM (#22679985)
Can we stop threatening criminal negligence charge for every single mistakes people make?

It's not going to improve performance in the next pandemic if people are afraid of doing their job or engages in ass covering.

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by Aeolun on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @07:17PM (#22680093)
Accepting any kind of help in a crisis seems reasonable.
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by H8crilA on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @07:37PM (#22680235)
Uhm, yes, skin in the game?

Things generally don't improve because people get better. Things generally improve because bad people/groups/corporations/ideas fail.

Way more people should be fired / tried / impeached. Need I remind you that nobody went to jail over 2008? It does make the system more healthy. If you're responsible for the health of some country you better be scared, because the consequences are dire, and your decisions are of utmost importance. I want that person to be on constant lookout for problems, bordering on desperation.

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by Natsu on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:07PM (#22680465)
That's effectively the complete opposite of how to actually eliminate errors. The way engineers do it involves depersonalizing it to get away from blame games, assessing all contributing causes, doing proper risk modeling and working to improve the systems so that they rely on human frailty as little as possible.

Skin in the game is an easy concept we're all familiar with, but it generally leads to adverse behavior like gaming the numbers instead of fixing the problems.

See, e.g. http://www.hazardcontrol.com/factsheets/principles/core-prin...

---

"Herein, the term “unsafe condition” is retained, but the term “unsafe act” is rejected as historically leading to error or incomplete cause analysis.

Rather, inappropriate human actions or inactions of persons that contribute to accidents (resulting from error or human nature associated with the common relevant human factor capabilities and limitations of men and women) are called “unsafe actions,” defined as unsafe system use methods and procedures, without any initial implication of fault or blame."

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by H8crilA on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:54PM (#22680837)
I don't think the concept is easy for people to understand at all. It's just darwinism really, but people think it's about punishment. Note that darwinism doesn't just reject bad ideas, it has a rather high and variable false positive rate. I.e. it's unfair, for example Ramanujan died prematurely despite being a genius and a gift to his species. But it is overall also quite effective.

If you can game the numbers there's no real skin in the game. And people do! Just sell volatility ("everything will always be fine") regardless of the conditions, it will work wonders, until you blow up. The difference is that if you blow up your own money you cannot continue the game, whereas if you blow other people's money - you can.

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by Natsu on Thursday March 26, 2020 @02:46PM (#22696577)
You seem to believe that "skin in the game" guarantees the survival of the fittest leaders. This is only true assuming that the selection criteria are good ones and ones that cannot be cheated.

As long as anyone is capable of gaming their numbers, it floods out honest people in favor of cheaters. It's very powerful at selecting for whatever your metrics are. When you have the wrong metrics or ones that can be cheated, it's very powerful in an extremely bad way.

In addition, the general public and the media are absolutely not good at this, or we would have far better leaders than we do.

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by rubatuga on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:31PM (#22680684)
I think you're mainly describing the optimal culture for the organization or workplace, but either collectively or perhaps even just the leaders, they must recognize the importance of their decisions and the possibility to cause deaths. That's why research like what you mention is important, it shows how organizations and leaders with "skin in the game" can achieve success.
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by threatofrain on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @09:03PM (#22680904)
Engineers create systems where individual vigilance is less disastrous, or where vigilance is augmented. The real world and tech world still does rely on brute-force responsibility sometimes, to cover the gaps in a plan where the details were left out.
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by H8crilA on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @09:12PM (#22680974)
Exactly, the complexity of the "real world" far exceeds that of what a typical engineer deals with. This requires more darwinian, rather than cerebral, processes, simply because human brains are too small to understand all consequences.
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by Natsu on Thursday March 26, 2020 @02:41PM (#22696521)
Nothing about safety modeling requires that we understand every risk in the model. I don't understand how you think that, e.g., aviation safety modeling doesn't have to deal with the real world or with real people who do stupid things. It's true that we're probably less able to control all the risk factors in some cases, though, but nothing prevents us from understanding them or doing what we can to make better systems for future pandemics. E.G. we could come up with a better plan for testing and perhaps better ways to share (or leak?) data on new diseases.

The fact is that the public are terrible bosses. We look for people to blame, we're inattentive and have no idea, generally, how to evaluate things on actual metrics. We have no idea which metrics are being gamed and the people who do are actively gaming the metrics and flooding us with cherry-picked information as well as disinformation, though the former is probably more dangerous and more widespread.

The average person in the public will be satisfied as long as we blame some random politician instead of looking for structural reform. E.G. maybe we should adopt Japan's culture of using masks in public when sick, require employers to guarantee minimum standards of sick leave, and change various hospital/ER waiting room practices.

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by kiba on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @07:50PM (#22680342)
Things generally don't improve because people get better. Things generally improve because bad people/groups/corporations/ideas fail.

Things improve when we endeavor to make things better and test our ideas and willingness to learn from mistakes, especially so if we prioritize pandemic preparation.

Punishing people for their mistakes lead to people hiding their mistakes, not trying their damn hardest not to make a mistake, especially since mistakes are probably inevitable in a complex and evolving situation like a potential pandemic.

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by greedo on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @10:26PM (#22681453)
I think people who mismanage situations should be fired. We fire our POTUS roughly every 8 years. My mgmt has made decisions during the pandemic that have endangered me and my coworkers. I think they should be fired as well.
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by BeetleB on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:28PM (#22680652)
> Need I remind you that nobody went to jail over 2008?

First, this is simply false.

Second, can you name anyone who should have gone to jail and state the law they broke?

Congress had eliminated a lot of regulations that could have prevented or tempered the meltdown. There were not really laws to break. And the population happily kept electing said people.

The electorate had skin in the game. And they did not learn.

Skin in the game is not that effective.

[dead]
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by Lldjjxnn on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:34PM (#22680712)
I thought the CDC funding cut didn't pass?
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by hinkley on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @06:45PM (#22679886)
Perhaps the most responsible thing to do is to buy the existing tests, start immediately making your own, and then offer the tests to others the moment supply exceeds demand.

You get to save people first, and save face later.

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by throwaway122378 on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @06:24PM (#22679744)
What’s your point? The WHO lost all credibility.

As late as January 14, 2020 the WHO tweeted that there is NO evidence of human to human transmission of covid-19

https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1217043229427761152?s=20

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by funcDropShadow on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @07:30PM (#22680185)
There is huge difference between "no evidence of human to human transmission" and "evidence of no human to human transmission". The former means, we don't know yet. You can blame them for not knowing. But admitting that was right. And when they knew, they told everyone. At least in this instance, they haven't lost any credibility. On the contrary, it shows integrity to admit your limits of knowledge.
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by throwaway122378 on Wednesday March 25, 2020 @12:46AM (#22682004)
They knew it all by Jan 23rd
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by eyegor on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @06:42PM (#22679865)
I'm guessing based on the other reply that you corrected the date. But how does WHO repeating a statement from Chinese authorities (attributed in the tweet) have anything to do with the WHO's credibility?
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by pilsetnieks on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @07:11PM (#22680056)
Nothing. "The WHO has lost all credibility" is a line that was parroted in every troll comment in February and early March; I guess this one hasn't yet gotten the memo, or maybe it's a bystander that's bought into it.
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by knzhou on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @07:40PM (#22680260)
It's amusing how some people are reacting on a one-month or even two-month delay. I still see people saying that there's a new disease being covered up in Wuhan, or that we need to shut down travel from China, as if they were in a coma from mid-January all the way to late March. The actual situation changes faster than people's narratives of it.
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by omgJustTest on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @06:31PM (#22679785)
"Preliminary investigations conducted by the Chinese authorities have found no clear evidence of human-to-human transmission of the novel #coronavirus (2019-nCoV) identified in #Wuhan, #China," - WHO.

Sounds like these were preliminary results, which would have been well rectified by February. Wuhan was under quarantine Jan 23.

There is a substantial difference in being wrong a month or so after a new virus is discovered, and being wrong after a country has been shutdown for nearly a month.

EDIT: Updated for correct date Jan 23, not Jan 29, of Wuhan shutdown.

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by malandrew on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @07:01PM (#22679995)
Wuhan was under quarantine on Jan 23rd.
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by Lldjjxnn on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:35PM (#22680720)
Precisely. I don't understand why the WHO would put out such information with reckless disregard of current events.
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by electriclove on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @07:09PM (#22680039)
Both the WHO and the CDC have (deservedly) lost trust with the public.
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by bshipp on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @07:26PM (#22680158)
I don't see any evidence in media or conversations that anything of the sort is true. If anyone has looked inept in the eyes of the public its potentially the federal administration in the USA. But what blame does WHO shoulder?

WHO appears to have been fairly well in front of this pandemic as soon as the evidence began to support it. The White House was in full denial/hoax mode until the end of February.