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Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by kiba on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @07:00PM (#22679985)
Can we stop threatening criminal negligence charge for every single mistakes people make?

It's not going to improve performance in the next pandemic if people are afraid of doing their job or engages in ass covering.

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by Aeolun on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @07:17PM (#22680093)
Accepting any kind of help in a crisis seems reasonable.
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by H8crilA on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @07:37PM (#22680235)
Uhm, yes, skin in the game?

Things generally don't improve because people get better. Things generally improve because bad people/groups/corporations/ideas fail.

Way more people should be fired / tried / impeached. Need I remind you that nobody went to jail over 2008? It does make the system more healthy. If you're responsible for the health of some country you better be scared, because the consequences are dire, and your decisions are of utmost importance. I want that person to be on constant lookout for problems, bordering on desperation.

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by Natsu on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:07PM (#22680465)
That's effectively the complete opposite of how to actually eliminate errors. The way engineers do it involves depersonalizing it to get away from blame games, assessing all contributing causes, doing proper risk modeling and working to improve the systems so that they rely on human frailty as little as possible.

Skin in the game is an easy concept we're all familiar with, but it generally leads to adverse behavior like gaming the numbers instead of fixing the problems.

See, e.g. http://www.hazardcontrol.com/factsheets/principles/core-prin...

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"Herein, the term “unsafe condition” is retained, but the term “unsafe act” is rejected as historically leading to error or incomplete cause analysis.

Rather, inappropriate human actions or inactions of persons that contribute to accidents (resulting from error or human nature associated with the common relevant human factor capabilities and limitations of men and women) are called “unsafe actions,” defined as unsafe system use methods and procedures, without any initial implication of fault or blame."

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by H8crilA on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:54PM (#22680837)
I don't think the concept is easy for people to understand at all. It's just darwinism really, but people think it's about punishment. Note that darwinism doesn't just reject bad ideas, it has a rather high and variable false positive rate. I.e. it's unfair, for example Ramanujan died prematurely despite being a genius and a gift to his species. But it is overall also quite effective.

If you can game the numbers there's no real skin in the game. And people do! Just sell volatility ("everything will always be fine") regardless of the conditions, it will work wonders, until you blow up. The difference is that if you blow up your own money you cannot continue the game, whereas if you blow other people's money - you can.

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by Natsu on Thursday March 26, 2020 @02:46PM (#22696577)
You seem to believe that "skin in the game" guarantees the survival of the fittest leaders. This is only true assuming that the selection criteria are good ones and ones that cannot be cheated.

As long as anyone is capable of gaming their numbers, it floods out honest people in favor of cheaters. It's very powerful at selecting for whatever your metrics are. When you have the wrong metrics or ones that can be cheated, it's very powerful in an extremely bad way.

In addition, the general public and the media are absolutely not good at this, or we would have far better leaders than we do.

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by rubatuga on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:31PM (#22680684)
I think you're mainly describing the optimal culture for the organization or workplace, but either collectively or perhaps even just the leaders, they must recognize the importance of their decisions and the possibility to cause deaths. That's why research like what you mention is important, it shows how organizations and leaders with "skin in the game" can achieve success.
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by threatofrain on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @09:03PM (#22680904)
Engineers create systems where individual vigilance is less disastrous, or where vigilance is augmented. The real world and tech world still does rely on brute-force responsibility sometimes, to cover the gaps in a plan where the details were left out.
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by H8crilA on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @09:12PM (#22680974)
Exactly, the complexity of the "real world" far exceeds that of what a typical engineer deals with. This requires more darwinian, rather than cerebral, processes, simply because human brains are too small to understand all consequences.
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by Natsu on Thursday March 26, 2020 @02:41PM (#22696521)
Nothing about safety modeling requires that we understand every risk in the model. I don't understand how you think that, e.g., aviation safety modeling doesn't have to deal with the real world or with real people who do stupid things. It's true that we're probably less able to control all the risk factors in some cases, though, but nothing prevents us from understanding them or doing what we can to make better systems for future pandemics. E.G. we could come up with a better plan for testing and perhaps better ways to share (or leak?) data on new diseases.

The fact is that the public are terrible bosses. We look for people to blame, we're inattentive and have no idea, generally, how to evaluate things on actual metrics. We have no idea which metrics are being gamed and the people who do are actively gaming the metrics and flooding us with cherry-picked information as well as disinformation, though the former is probably more dangerous and more widespread.

The average person in the public will be satisfied as long as we blame some random politician instead of looking for structural reform. E.G. maybe we should adopt Japan's culture of using masks in public when sick, require employers to guarantee minimum standards of sick leave, and change various hospital/ER waiting room practices.

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by kiba on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @07:50PM (#22680342)
Things generally don't improve because people get better. Things generally improve because bad people/groups/corporations/ideas fail.

Things improve when we endeavor to make things better and test our ideas and willingness to learn from mistakes, especially so if we prioritize pandemic preparation.

Punishing people for their mistakes lead to people hiding their mistakes, not trying their damn hardest not to make a mistake, especially since mistakes are probably inevitable in a complex and evolving situation like a potential pandemic.

Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by greedo on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @10:26PM (#22681453)
I think people who mismanage situations should be fired. We fire our POTUS roughly every 8 years. My mgmt has made decisions during the pandemic that have endangered me and my coworkers. I think they should be fired as well.
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by BeetleB on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:28PM (#22680652)
> Need I remind you that nobody went to jail over 2008?

First, this is simply false.

Second, can you name anyone who should have gone to jail and state the law they broke?

Congress had eliminated a lot of regulations that could have prevented or tempered the meltdown. There were not really laws to break. And the population happily kept electing said people.

The electorate had skin in the game. And they did not learn.

Skin in the game is not that effective.

[dead]
Re:CDC coronavirus testing decision likely to haunt nation f... by Lldjjxnn on Tuesday March 24, 2020 @08:34PM (#22680712)
I thought the CDC funding cut didn't pass?