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Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by quartzite on Friday March 20, 2020 @04:28PM (#22641314)
This is exactly correct.

Those who fight for fair admissions on the basis of intellectual ability and academic potential should hold up the SAT and standardized testing as a cornerstone of the admissions process.

Standardized testing significantly levels the playing field for students across income brackets. Returns on study investment quickly diminish, and reaching a plateau on returns doesn't require much investment at all (internet connection and the purchase of a few large study manuals).

At my high school in sophomore year I remember speaking with a wealthy friend whose father had signed him up for flying lessons so he could "stand out in college admissions". There are many, many cases like this.

Admissions should disregard such superficial peacocking and focus on metrics like the SAT that disentangle intellectual and academic potential from wealth.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by mekoka on Friday March 20, 2020 @05:38PM (#22641925)
The premise of your answer is that MIT wants good "students" and "test takers". What if that's not what they want so much anymore? A test is supposed to be a metric, an indicator of something. But metrics tend to become target as soon as they're exposed. Maybe then they still remain an indicator of something, but not necessarily what they were originally intended to filter for.

I understand that it might feel like the goalposts are being moved for people who optimize to score high on such metrics, but such is the nature of this type of games. That's also why search engine companies have to keep refining their algorithms.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by lmm on Friday March 20, 2020 @07:41PM (#22642879)
MIT has an obvious incentive to admit rich, well-connected people, and an obvious incentive to maintain a reputation for admitting the most intelligent on merit. We should be sceptical of any changes they make that purport to be about getting more meritorious students, especially if those changes result in the admission of more rich, well-connected people.
Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by barry-cotter on Friday March 20, 2020 @07:47PM (#22642923)
Good test takers are people who have learned things and know them well enough to pass a test on it. There are many kinds of test. The SAT is the kind designed by psychometricians, experts with Ph.D.s building on millions of man hours of research to make tests that are both valid and reliable, that predict success in college and are as close to ungameable as possible.

MIT could drop the real SAT tomorrow and still fill its freshman class with valedictorians who captained their high school sports team and have ten AP 5s. Schools with fewer applicants have the SAT.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by frequentnapper on Friday March 20, 2020 @07:57PM (#22642987)
>Good test takers are people who have learned things and know them well enough to pass a test on it.

Tell that to the massive test prep industry. Many many years ago I took a trial SAT and scored around 1000. Then I took a Kaplan SAT prep course, and lo and behold after learning all the tricks scored a 1300 on a test SAT. Back then the test prep course cost > $1000. I had a car in high school, so I could drive to the test prep school in the evenings.

Seems to me that people who prep for the tests (not necessarily learned things through high school) and are willing to spend time and money have a great margin of benefit.

It's the same thing for tech interview prep industry. The ones who prep well for the interview, do well in the interview.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by saagarjha on Friday March 20, 2020 @09:03PM (#22643341)
> The SAT is the kind designed by psychometricians, experts with Ph.D.s building on millions of man hours of research to make tests that are both valid and reliable, that predict success in college and are as close to ungameable as possible.

This is what the CollegeBoard wants you think. You don’t have to be all that great to realize that the people writing the test are hardly better than you are at both the subject and writing test, and in many case significantly worse.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by barry-cotter on Friday March 20, 2020 @09:50PM (#22643557)
They’re hiring two Ph.D. holding psychometricians right now. https://careers.collegeboard.org/search-jobs?title=Psychomet...

In many cases, not, in many case.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by wolco on Friday March 20, 2020 @11:55PM (#22644284)
Assistant? Associate?

The titles don't give too much confidence.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by barry-cotter on Saturday March 21, 2020 @03:33AM (#22645183)
These are positions for which a Ph.D. is an absolute requirement. Compare Assistant or Associate Professor.

> About you

> Education/Experience:

> Doctorate in psychometrics, educational research, educational measurement or a related field is required. New PhD level applicants will be considered, as will applicants with additional experience. A minimum of 3 years relevant experience is required for the Associate level.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by bsder on Friday March 20, 2020 @04:54PM (#22641560)
I suspect this is just getting rid of redundancy. Everyone taking the SAT subject tests is probably taking the equivalent Advanced Placement test anyhow.

However, the biggest problems with these tests (and the AP tests) is that they are expensive--they cost a non-trivial amount of money to sign up for and they cost a lot of time to prepare for if your school doesn't offer direct AP classes.

The expensiveness is the barrier.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by danielg6 on Friday March 20, 2020 @05:17PM (#22641753)
Exactly. I took all of the AP equivalents of the SAT2s senior year before starting at MIT. It seemed pointless. And my parents paid for each one.

Edit: I meant I took the SAT subject tests along with their AP equivalents.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by snazz on Friday March 20, 2020 @05:23PM (#22641801)
Aren't the AP tests far more difficult than the SAT subject tests? That's what I remember at least for chemistry (maybe?) back when I took both exams.
Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by danielg6 on Friday March 20, 2020 @06:55PM (#22642573)
To clarify, I meant to say “along with”. I took the APs and their SAT subject equivalents
Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by danielg6 on Friday March 20, 2020 @09:20PM (#22643427)
Also, I wouldn’t necessarily agree that AP exams are more difficult than the SAT subject tests. School curriculum is not uniform. In fact, in my high school the material for certain SAT subjects tests was _only_ taught in AP classes.
Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by lonelappde on Friday March 20, 2020 @05:49PM (#22641997)
Yes, AP is college level, and SAT is high school level.
Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by ummwhat on Friday March 20, 2020 @07:52PM (#22642956)
My school had a deal where when you signed up for an AP class you had to take the AP test. But if you pass the AP test (3 or higher) the school would reimburse you. I took 5 tests and never paid for one. Including the one where we didn't have a teacher for half a year (long story).

I think this is the fairest way to do it. If you got talent but no money, the opportunity is still there.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by bsder on Friday March 20, 2020 @08:30PM (#22643161)
> My school had a deal where when you signed up for an AP class you had to take the AP test. But if you pass the AP test (3 or higher) the school would reimburse you.

This just drives home the unfairness though.

You had a school that was willing to pony up this money. That is not universally true.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by bsanr2 on Friday March 20, 2020 @05:09PM (#22641689)
While I agree, let's acknowledge the fair critique from the end that is not, "Keeping high-achieving Asian kids out": the part where the tests themselves cost money parents (and school systems) don't have; the part where the study guide in and of itself is not enough to prepare for these exams, leaving us the true, astronomical cost of preparation; the part where this is all begging the question of what admissions tests are for anyway (generally, the same things poll taxes and quizzes were for).

I agree that the answer is the base SAT, but with an addition of a lottery past a point threshold. Luck (of birth) got us into this mess, and luck could get us out.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by Yhippa on Friday March 20, 2020 @05:26PM (#22641818)
> Luck (of birth) got us into this mess, and luck could get us out.

I'm all in favor of adding some kind of RNG to this process. The overpreparation of the wealthy in all kinds of aspects of admissions gives them a big advantage over those who don't. RNG evens it out.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by smilekzs on Friday March 20, 2020 @10:49PM (#22643884)
I disagree. A raffle system, while inevitable in some cases (H-1B lottery comes to mind), is totally inappropriate when applied to a standardized test. Quite on the contrary, a standardized test aims to measure capability (however abstract it is), not luck.
Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by mywittyname on Friday March 20, 2020 @11:53PM (#22644275)
I think it's perfectly reasonable to go with a lottery system after some point. Most people with a ACT over ~30 are going to be completely capable of performing the coursework for an undergraduate degree at MIT. And anyone with a perfect score is going to be fine anyway. There are plenty of world-class institutions in the USA that would be more than happy to accept these peopl.
Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by alasdair_ on Saturday March 21, 2020 @04:16AM (#22645274)
>I think it's perfectly reasonable to go with a lottery system after some point.

Only the wealthy can afford to apply to every single "prestige" college and university available. A lottery where some people get twenty tickets and others get one or two seems just as silly.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by _hardwaregeek on Friday March 20, 2020 @05:51PM (#22642012)
This is not entirely true. SAT scores can be used as ways to admit more privileged students, as they tend to have access to more test prep along with privileges such as extra time:

> In 2010 three College Board researchers analyzed data from more than 150,000 students who took the SAT, and they found that the demographics of the two “discrepant” groups differed substantially. The students with the inflated SAT scores were more likely to be white or Asian than the students in the deflated-SAT group, and they were much more likely to be male. Their families were also much better off. Compared with the students with the deflated SAT scores, the inflated-SAT students were more than twice as likely to have parents who earned more than $100,000 a year and more than twice as likely to have parents with graduate degrees. These were the students — the only students — who were getting an advantage in admissions from the SAT. And they were exactly the kind of students that Trinity was admitting in such large numbers in the years before Pérez arrived.

> By contrast, according to the College Board’s demographic analysis, students in the deflated-SAT group, the ones whose SAT scores were significantly lower than their high school grades would have predicted, were twice as likely to be black as students in the inflated-SAT group, nearly twice as likely to be female and almost three times as likely to be Hispanic. They were three times as likely as students in the inflated-SAT group to have parents who earned less than $30,000 a year, and they were almost three times as likely to have parents who hadn’t attended college. They were the students — the only students — whose college chances suffered when admissions offices considered the SAT in addition to high school grades.

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/10/magazine/coll...

The article goes on to explain that while grade point average is relatively consistent across income level, SAT scores are skewed towards the rich. Schools have realized this, which is why many schools no longer require the SAT or ACT.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by graeme on Friday March 20, 2020 @06:44PM (#22642480)
Does that study control for school quality? If grades are normalized for a local school population, then good grades at one school can be worse than mediocre grades at another school.

This was exactly the purpose for which tests like the SAT were created. If that factor wasn’t controlled for, then the quote above is misleading.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by underpand on Friday March 20, 2020 @07:56PM (#22642972)
GPA is already scaled based on income because poor schools give higher GPAs for the same level of knowledge and skill. The study is useless.
Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by alistairSH on Friday March 20, 2020 @08:57PM (#22643318)
While I've heard that said, I've never seen proof that grades are inflated at poor schools. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't actually the opposite, as helicopter parents and their ambitious students are more able (more free time) to self-promote and argue their way into higher grades.
Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by wolco on Saturday March 21, 2020 @12:09AM (#22644351)
Grades are more inflated at rich school. The presure teachers are under is great. For private school, if parents can get better grades elsewhere they will move them.

The material may be easier in a poor school and an average student can seem amazing compared to a below average student.

The rich dumb, poor smart both come in from behind the eightball. Rich can buy there way out and poor can work there way in. If I'm mit I want rich smart.. seems less risky.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by thebradbain on Friday March 20, 2020 @05:17PM (#22641747)
The tests don't not work (I believe that within the middle of bell-curve they accomplish their goal well), but at the extremes they are prone to gamification, especially to those in the know. For example, the pre-2017 SAT had some well known (and some lesser known) tricks that you would only know by studying the test, rather than the material:

- ALL sections (and sub-sections) have questions that strictly increase in difficulty / projected "miss-rate" as time goes on. This is to keep test takers from coming back to answers they're unsure about but may themselves know how to solve -- so if you find yourself struggling with questions in a row, it's better to stop and go back rather than miss out on what you may already know trying to solve questions that you don't. For the reading section, the scale is scoped to each passage. For the vocab section, where there are 3 sections (vocab, grammar, and multiple-choice fill in the blank), the scale is scoped to each subsection. For the math section, it is scoped to the whole thing.

- The "Free Section" (e.g. the one that doesn't count toward your score, which instructors tell you before you start that section, so you can use it as a break if you wish) is usually section 4 or 5 of the test, to help plan your breaks. Some students, not previously-knowing or confused that the "free section" is ungraded, still take it thinking there must be a penalty of some sort.

- The word "equivocal" is tested within the SAT Vocab in around 60% of tests. Unequivocally, these questions have some of the highest wrong-rates of any question on the test.

- Within the grammar questions, Choice (e) "None of the above" is 99% of the time NEVER the answer. This is one of the most certain things on the test.

- The math questions will usually have (1) answer that is an outlier. 95% of the time, this is not the correct answer; (2) will be similar to the correct answer in different ways; and (1) will be the correct answer (e.g., say you're supposed to subtract "x" by 5 to get to the real answer. The obviously fake one might be multiplied by 5. One of the slightly-wrong answers might have 5 added rather than subtracted, another might just be off by 1). If you're ever in doubt, you can drastically increase your chances at guessing on a question by picking the question "most similar" to all of the others -- something like 65% chance, rather than 25% in the naive case.

- Again for math questions -- particularly the "word riddle" type ones -- the SAT will generally purposely pick questions that could have multiple seemingly-correct questions if you plug in 1, 2, 5, or 10 for the variables. 3 is almost always a safe bet, though I particularly liked to choose 7, because who thinks you'd ever choose to plug in 7.

- The essay is funny. Per the SAT's own published rules, they are not graded on fact at all; purely rhetoric, vocabulary choice, and clarity. All of the prompts also usually include a historical figure or event of some sort -- you don't need to know anything about them other than what the prompt tells you, but a well-known and easy way to win points with the graders is to make up a fake quote from someone adjacent to the event / historical figure as a hook: e.g. "Disconsolate upon hearing the tragedy of [EVENT X], [FIGURE Y]'s au pair journaled 'His life was short, but his memory will last forever'. Previously unknown to historians until then, Y's au pair embodied Y's belief that [SOMETHING FROM THE PROMPT]. [then THESIS STATEMENT on 3rd or 4th sentence, always]." (this is an objectively wrong and terrible sentence that I would hate to read in any other context. This is, however, similar to the SAT's example of a top-tier intro).

This is just the tip of the iceberg, too. It's a very predictable format and pattern (it has to be, as it's given multiple times during the same academic year; tests must be similar, lest one session of test takers do statistically significantly better than an equally-talented group which takes the test a month later)

So yes, while I believe the SAT does attempt to test for knowledge, it's that same pursuit of a bell curve that makes it easily gamifiable for those who know the test and not the material -- who are, once again, usually already the wealthy and connected.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by knzhou on Friday March 20, 2020 @05:38PM (#22641924)
Wow, this is a remarkable level of gaming that I never was aware of!

> - Within the grammar questions, Choice (e) "None of the above" is 99% of the time NEVER the answer.

> - The math questions will usually have (1) answer that is an outlier. 95% of the time, this is not the correct answer; (2) will be similar to the correct answer in different ways; and (1) will be the correct answer

This is exactly the reason that, when I design tests, I strive to make "none of the above" or the outlier answer the correct one about 20% of the time. I really hope the SAT writers are doing that now.

> ALL sections (and sub-sections) have questions that strictly increase in difficulty / projected "miss-rate" as time goes on.

The computerized GRE goes even further... it's like a videogame, it feeds you harder questions the better you do, then reverts to easier ones when you mess up.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by fyz on Friday March 20, 2020 @05:51PM (#22642014)
> The computerized GRE goes even further... it's like a videogame, it feeds you harder questions the better you do, then reverts to easier ones when you mess up.

Isn't that one of the better ways to finely calibrate a score? Rough approximation of heapsort?

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by knzhou on Friday March 20, 2020 @05:58PM (#22642069)
Yes, it definitely is!

It does feel a little crazy, though, when suddenly all the vocab words are like, "tergiversate" and "pulchritudinous". And then when you get them all wrong it's back to "the cat sat on the mat". :P

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by thebradbain on Friday March 20, 2020 @05:43PM (#22641957)
I completely agree, and as much as I hate CollegeBoard hope they've done more to reinvent their tests, as I do think objective measurement of some kind does have a place in admissions, even though perhaps as not the end-all-be-all it used to be.

I used to be semi-adjacent to that sphere, but I do not know anything about the current format of the tests other than what is published.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by walshemj on Friday March 20, 2020 @06:21PM (#22642274)
Yes you need to learn to look for the distractors and rule them out
Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by jrandm on Friday March 20, 2020 @06:14PM (#22642211)
> The essay is funny. Per the SAT's own published rules, they are not graded on fact at all; purely rhetoric, vocabulary choice, and clarity. All of the prompts also usually include a historical figure or event of some sort -- you don't need to know anything about them other than what the prompt tells you

When I realized this applied to a lot of required essays -- ie, they can be fiction or satire -- I had a lot more fun writing papers. I wouldn't exactly recommend it but can confirm it doesn't completely tank your GPA.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by godelski on Saturday March 21, 2020 @01:53AM (#22644823)
This reminds me of a Physics GRE I took. I studied all the tests and remember very clearly the test saying to only calculate to two decimal places to save time. There was a relativity question that had 3 answers that just varied on how many decimal places you carried through your calculations. That question had the answer if you kept 2. But it also had the answers for more. I'm not sure questions like this actually show that you know the material, considering to get 3 of the 5 answers you have to do the actual calculations.

What I learned about studying for tests like these was that you were studying for the test, not the material. This felt extremely different than studying for... say... an actual physics test.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by cycrutchfield on Friday March 20, 2020 @07:36PM (#22642842)
I wish more people who fall into the kneejerk "we must emphasize only objective testing" group were aware of things like these. Standardized tests are incredibly game-able, particularly at the upper tail of the distribution. Because of the nature of that distribution, that means that if you selected students only by "objective" measures like standardized test scores, you will be disproportionately selecting for students who are experts at test-taking, not experts at being good students.

The more we can reduce the overdependence on standardized tests, the better we can be at selecting for well-rounded students and not just test-gamers.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by barry-cotter on Friday March 20, 2020 @08:15PM (#22643076)
Indeed, much better to select for the kinds of people whose parents know how these things work and can ensure their child has the right letters of recommendation, internships and extracurricular activities. And don’t be terribly specific about what exactly it v is you want; that way you can change it from year to year to ensure the right kind of people get in. Wouldn’t want Harvard to look like Cal Tech or Berkekk OK way would we? That’s what happens when you have a public, objective test instead of being able to select some smart and some connected.
Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by cycrutchfield on Saturday March 21, 2020 @02:05AM (#22644866)
This is not at all what I said, but by all means continue to project your own insecurities.
Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by ummwhat on Friday March 20, 2020 @07:46PM (#22642909)
Maybe this is will be seen as radical but I think the best way to end all this gaming is for collegeboard to not release their previous tests to the public. There simply shouldn't be enough data out there to study the test rather than the material. All that should be known in advance is the topics, format (multi choice v. Open ended) and point system. I'm sure the cottage industry of test prep companies would hate it, as would those that prefer studying the test to having merits, but those groups can pound sand.
Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by barry-cotter on Friday March 20, 2020 @07:55PM (#22642970)
You don’t need examples of previous tests to prepare. Even if there was perfect enforcement of no recording devices, no corruption, no breaking in and stealing test papers people would talk about what the test was like, sitting to sitting. Some people retake the test multiple times. This would probably become normative in this case because the practice effect on IQ tests like the SAT is small but real. If people were really motivated you can just pay 100 people to do the test and get them to memorize parts of it, then stitch the parts together afterwards.
Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by knzhou on Friday March 20, 2020 @08:27PM (#22643129)
Decreased transparency increases the advantage the test prep industry has, since they'll find a way to get them anyway.
Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by saagarjha on Friday March 20, 2020 @09:05PM (#22643352)
The CollegeBoard is notoriously closed with their tests.
Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by lonelappde on Friday March 20, 2020 @05:48PM (#22641993)
The SAT is intended to test aptitude, not knowledge. It's right there in the name.
Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by JMTQp8lwXL on Friday March 20, 2020 @06:14PM (#22642207)
> Standardized testing significantly levels the playing field for students across income brackets.

There's a correlation between parental income and SAT scores.

“[S]tudents from families earning more than $200,000 a year average a combined score of 1,714, while students from families earning under $20,000 a year average a combined score of 1,326.”

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/03/rich-students-get-better-sat...

An "equalizing effect" would imply students of both parental income groups would have the same score.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by tristor on Friday March 20, 2020 @06:45PM (#22642488)
There's a correlation between parental income and IQ scores too. There's also a correlation between parental income and GPA. It's just a correlation, though, and it does not follow that a good standardized test would result in the average score would match across different parental income groups.

Just because a test is standardized doesn't mean it completely eliminates all confounding factors outside of the test, but it does mitigate some of them. Equality and equity aren't the same thing.

Certainly, without reliance on standardized testing I'm somehow certain that Braden who got a helicopter pilot's license at 16 so he could fly the family helo from Manhattan to Westchester is going to do better in admissions than Tyrone who excelled in academics and was lucky enough to attend a technology magnet school, but grew up in the projects and had no access to anything outside of what school and the library provided. With SAT tests included, the fact Braden made a 1530 and Tyrone made a 1970 plays a factor.

That's what folks are saying.

Re:MIT to no longer consider SAT subject tests in admissions... by freepor on Friday March 20, 2020 @06:43PM (#22642470)
But there’s a much greater correlation between parental income and other measures you could use to evaluate applicants. Even height has parental income correlation, you can‘t eliminate it completely.