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Re:Rai Stones by _bxg1 on Saturday March 21, 2020 @11:38AM (#22647255)
> The monetary system of Yap relies on an oral history of ownership. In the case of stones that are too large to move, buying an item with one simply involves agreeing that the ownership has changed. As long as the transaction is recorded in the oral history, it will now be owned by the person to whom it is passed

> The extrinsic (perceived) value of a specific stone is based on not only its size and craftsmanship, but also its history. If many people—or no one at all—died when the specific stone was transported, or a famous sailor brought it in, the value of the rai stone increases by reason of its anecdotal heft.

So, it's Bitcoin.

Re:Rai Stones by coralreef on Saturday March 21, 2020 @12:20PM (#22647581)
Its a ledger but that's about it. Its not distributed, decentralized or permissionless.
Re:Rai Stones by _bxg1 on Saturday March 21, 2020 @12:42PM (#22647773)
The "oral history" part makes me think the "ledger" exists in the collective memory of a community. Plus, the value is purely defined on how hard the artifact was to get, not on any kind of intrinsic utility.
Re:Rai Stones by mywacaday on Saturday March 21, 2020 @12:59PM (#22647893)
So not a million miles away from Gold then
Re:Rai Stones by _bxg1 on Saturday March 21, 2020 @03:41PM (#22649314)
Gold has some intrinsic utility. Even before electronics, it was useful as a visible display of wealth and power, which did have very tangible value.
Re:Rai Stones by jdc on Sunday March 22, 2020 @03:37AM (#22653350)
And the whole malleability thing
Re:Rai Stones by _kst_ on Saturday March 21, 2020 @03:37PM (#22649275)
Rockchain.
Re:Rai Stones by kragen on Saturday March 21, 2020 @11:11AM (#22647012)
Keep this in mind when people claim that money is a modern invention, that it dates from the Copper Age or later, or that it's dependent on the existence of states.
Re:Rai Stones by twomoretime on Saturday March 21, 2020 @12:25PM (#22647621)
....it's really a stretch to call these stones "money."

Yes, they represent value, but other than that they practically immobile, non-portable, non-fungible, and work entirely via word of mouth and rely on human honesty...perhaps it's more appropriate to call it proto-money.

Re:Rai Stones by carapace on Saturday March 21, 2020 @01:53PM (#22648330)
It's proto-banking, eh? They skipped the earlier phases of finance.

It reminds me of the aliens in Douglas Adams' who, having fifty arms, are the only species to invent under-arm deodorant before the wheel.

Re:Rai Stones by mavhc on Saturday March 21, 2020 @06:00PM (#22650572)
Reminds me more of https://hitchhikers.fandom.com/wiki/Triganic_Pu

Also barter was never really a thing: However, ethnographic studies have shown that no present or past society has used barter without any other medium of exchange or measurement, nor have anthropologists found evidence that money emerged from barter, instead finding that gift-giving (credit extended on a personal basis with an inter-personal balance maintained over the long term) was the most usual means of exchange of goods and services

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barter

Re:Rai Stones by kragen on Saturday March 21, 2020 @04:28PM (#22649761)
Probably hard currencies started out as debt and title systems like the rai stones.

If you look at a pidgin English dialect like Nigerian pidgin, and compare it to British English or for that matter Nigerian non-pidgin English, you might assume that pidgin English was the original form, since it's simpler, and that British English evolved from it. But in fact the truth is the opposite: pidgin English is a simplified version of English developed as a lingua franca for international communication.

The same seems to be true of hard currency and especially barter. Hard currency is pidgin banking; barter is pidgin hard currency. Rai stones show us the complexity of social arrangements surrounding money that in a homogeneous culture within a generation or two, but which are only legible to someone who grew up in the culture to which that money belongs. In Yap this heritage has been preserved, although diminished in importance; elsewhere it has been mostly lost.

Hard currency is sufficiently simple to bridge cultural gaps and even gaps between ages, like pidgin English or Glosa.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5000_Years

Re:Rai Stones by carapace on Saturday March 21, 2020 @05:54PM (#22650537)
That book is on my list to read.

One of the most interesting things I've heard about money is what Giordano Bruno (1548 – 1600) supposedly said: "Whatever has the greatest value and the least cost of storage becomes money."

Re:Rai Stones by serf on Saturday March 21, 2020 @07:37PM (#22651221)
it's a good book, but the earlier chapters regarding tribal economics and the valued currency being tribal women themselves is questionable from a truth standpoint.

Tribes traded people for goods and services, sometimes temporarily. It was mostly a sex and politics thing, but the book views it as a form of currency bartering and trade; I think there is more nuance there.

Re:Rai Stones by TeMPOraL on Saturday March 21, 2020 @02:18PM (#22648532)
Honestly, with all that oral history thing, it sounds like a proto-blockchain. The "true chain" in any given situation is determined by the set of oral histories that everyone can agree on.
Re:Rai Stones by twic on Saturday March 21, 2020 @05:20PM (#22650235)
It's also sort of the same as how stock ownership works, where ultimate ownership of stocks doesn't change, but authority over them does:

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2015-07-14/banks-...

Re:Rai Stones by efreak on Monday March 23, 2020 @01:19AM (#22661452)
"in the case of stones that are too large to move", yes. Other stones are smaller, mentioned at sizes of 3.5 or 2.8-3.1cm each, an easy size to carry. Not knowing much about the area they were used in, I'd say the quantity (6000 or so according to the article) is more limiting.
Re:Rai Stones by lawn on Saturday March 21, 2020 @02:27PM (#22648627)
Note that they have smaller versions of them too, which works like regular coins.
Re:Rai Stones by rdlw on Saturday March 21, 2020 @06:23PM (#22650726)
It's not totally clear from the article, but it would seem that the small coins are worth much less than the large ones since there is little hardship involved in their excavation and transportation. So the small ones function more like coins, and the large ones are more like valuable property which can be exchanged via an oral deed.
Re:Rai Stones by hcarvalhoalves on Saturday March 21, 2020 @01:54PM (#22648335)
This is the definition of land contract, so maybe that’s a better analogy.
Re:Rai Stones by block_dagger on Saturday March 21, 2020 @08:41AM (#22646137)
Nano (the cryptocurrency) was originally named Raiblocks after these.
Re:Rai Stones by jacobush on Saturday March 21, 2020 @11:33AM (#22647222)
And I can see why "In one instance, a large rai being transported by canoe and outrigger was accidentally dropped and sank to the sea floor. Although it was never seen again, everyone agreed that the rai must still be there, so it continued to be transacted as genuine currency".
Re:Rai Stones by stormtv on Saturday March 21, 2020 @03:07PM (#22649035)
Interestingly this is the reason why the first Raiblocks wallet was named canoe. [1]

[1] https://getcanoe.io/

Re:Rai Stones by keiferski on Saturday March 21, 2020 @04:27PM (#22649756)
This sounds like the beginning of a Borges story.
Re:Rai Stones by DanBC on Saturday March 21, 2020 @09:04AM (#22646229)
I find these stones fascinating. You might be interested in this NPR article: https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2011/02/15/131934618/the-...
Re:Rai Stones by DoreenMichele on Saturday March 21, 2020 @12:58PM (#22647881)
It's a good read with a little more color than the Wikipedia piece.
Re:Rai Stones by DoreenMichele on Saturday March 21, 2020 @12:47PM (#22647800)
Humans are wonderfully crazy at times. This really tickled me.

Excerpt (one of the details that delighted me):

The extrinsic (perceived) value of a specific stone is based on not only its size and craftsmanship, but also its history. If many people—or no one at all—died when the specific stone was transported, or a famous sailor brought it in, the value of the rai stone increases by reason of its anecdotal heft.

Re:Rai Stones by Gravityloss on Saturday March 21, 2020 @01:12PM (#22647987)
Well, there's the stock market.
Re:Rai Stones by DoreenMichele on Saturday March 21, 2020 @02:52PM (#22648906)
Not the kind of reply I expected and utterly fails to be a setup for the joke I wanted to make about not being human myself and just being here on your planet to do the field study portion of my degree in Human Studies.
Re:Rai Stones by keiferski on Saturday March 21, 2020 @04:17PM (#22649659)
This seems more human-like, in the traditional pre-modern sense, than the extremely abstract idea that is modern finance.
Re:Rai Stones by haecceity on Saturday March 21, 2020 @02:52PM (#22648912)
Don't forget the citation needed.
Re:Rai Stones by jackhalford on Saturday March 21, 2020 @11:57AM (#22647399)
I believe the Disappointment Islands have one of these [1], in a community of ~40 inhabitants.

[1] http://www.bbc.com/travel/story/20190319-a-journey-to-the-di...

Re:Rai Stones by yostrovs on Saturday March 21, 2020 @09:44AM (#22646419)
Money Mischief: Episodes in Monetary History by Milton Friedman is a great read about this and similar topics.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/97822.Money_Mischief

Re:Rai Stones by Ice_cream_suit on Saturday March 21, 2020 @07:08PM (#22651051)
"Economist Milton Friedman has compared the monetary role of the stone money to the reserves of gold held in Fort Knox for foreign governments"
Re:Rai Stones by ur-whale on Saturday March 21, 2020 @02:16PM (#22648513)
Very few people actually understand money (what it is, how it works), and the Yap stones are a perfect reminder of that fact.

And unfortunately, the few that do use that knowledge in a profoundly irresponsible way (e.g. QE)