> the 12 step program is super light on the spirituality stuff and very atheist friendly

This is highly dependent on where you are. I experienced verbal abuse and was made to feel unwelcome at meetings when people found out I'm an atheist. People have told me, verbatim, "You don't belong here if you're denying God".

Needless to say, I am no longer a part of that little cult. I'm doing fine without it.

You know, I've gone to these meetings with a number of people (my mother, who unfortunately lost her battles with it, and other family members/friends). I'll note that I've done this worldwide, to some degree - Japan, USA (east and west coast). I'm saying this to point out that I'm in there as an observer for these people attempting recovery, so this experience is cultivated from multiple viewpoints/locales/etc.

I have witnessed _exactly_ what you're saying, and I've seen people feel so unwelcome that it hurts them more than helps them. It blows my mind the stranglehold that AA has on this industry, given how demeaning it can be to people who are looking for help.

I've seen more success with people going to SMART recovery meetings, which focus on providing a space to talk and seek help without the judgement level associated with AA.

I reached a point where I realized I needed help to quit drinking. I looked into AA and a coworker whom I knew had gone through the program gave me a little red book. It felt very dogmatic and turned me off to the program. I never attended a meeting.

Instead I read a different book that could be summarized as "There are lots of good reasons to stop drinking and lets go over them." I also used r/stopdrinking as a support group for daily check-ins.

I can't say whether Alcoholics Anonymous would have helped me had I gone to the meetings but the literature was really unattractive. My understanding of SMART is they don't let you refer to yourself as an "alcoholic" or "addict". I feel that framing was much better for me than what I read in the Alcoholics Anonymous pamphlet.

That sounds really rough. If you ever want a group that won't badger you like that, look for "S.O.S" meetings: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_Organizations_for_Sobr...

I, too, went to AlAnon meetings when I was a teen. I honestly don't think I would be where I'm at today without going when I was younger.

Can you share about how it helped you?

Not the person you were replying to, however for me it mainly helped me understand that my loved ones' drinking was not something I could control, and it allowed me to let go of the anger and resentment (easier said than done).

I'm sorry you had to go through that.

Thank you for telling me about Al-Anon - I will look into it myself.

My understanding is that they don't even need you to acknowledge a God, just that "there is cosmically something bigger than you and you have no power to govern it"

Is that about what you experienced?

While that is touted as being the case, many groups make use of the Serenity Prayer[1]. Most of the time, it directly invokes the use of "God" or "Father" which can turn off non-believers. Some groups use a variation that omits direct reference to a religious entity, while a few groups are committed to avoiding the prayer altogether.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer#Use_by_twelve-...

In my experience, some meetings don't care much about that. Others have told me if I'm not into the whole Christian God thing that I'm not welcome.

The experience varies from group to group, and even between different meeting times at the same group. They all have their own interpretations and subcultures.

> A power greater than ourselves

No cosmically, nothing about governance.

Should be loving and tolerant.

At least that’s my experience so far working the steps.

even that is just silly. it is true only when the idea devolves into that kind of tautology.

I would obviously let it slide if I needed this kind of thing, but it is clearly cruft.

I won't pretend I understand how it works but I think it has to do with accepting that you aren't in control of things, especially your addiction.

I suppose but as an existentialist/atheist there are dice rolls that govern my entire life and most are not under my control. Using that belief as a tool to cleave apart guilt, shame, and blame is handy.

The same “dice roller” in the sky that brought me trauma also brought me a high affinity with math and science, some pathway to a great tech career so acknowledging a higher power is really about saying “shits gonna happen, good and bad”

Please let's not dip a toe into religious flamewar.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Same here, been to Al-Anon meetings in London UK, all hosted in church basements and with zero religious nonsense being spouted... just the Serenity Prayer and tbh that one is just plain good advice so I did not mind :) I have nothing but praise for the 12-step system as I experienced it