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Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by awb on Sunday March 08, 2020 @07:31PM (#22521460)
> As someone who’s been 1099 as often as not for the last few years, I don’t like the idea that these things are only available to employees, and would prefer a system that priced stuff equally for temps as for the elect.

I never understood why healthcare was tied to employment. Yes, it's a nice benefit, but it's not like your health needs change significantly if your job changes.

Maybe employers for dangerous jobs could offer supplementary insurance in effect at the workplace or job site. But access to affordable day to day healthcare is something we all need from birth to death without interruption.

Especially when you consider infectious disease, the health of the community impacts all of us.

Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by didgeoridoo on Sunday March 08, 2020 @07:44PM (#22521546)
> I never understood why healthcare was tied to employment.

Pre-WW2, many unions in the US had negotiated employer-paid health insurance as a (taxable) benefit. When the government capped wages as part of wartime price controls, these unions threatened to strike, which would have gutted industrial production. To avoid a strike, the government offered to temporarily make employer-provided health insurance a tax-free benefit.

Temporarily. And here we still are.

Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by slg on Sunday March 08, 2020 @08:03PM (#22521647)
As software developers we can probably empathize. I know I have been working on production code and found years old comments written by me along the following lines:

//Hacky solution to get a working prototype, should be refactored before deployment.

Legislative and regulatory debt can be a problem just like technical debt.

Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by Ericson2314 on Sunday March 08, 2020 @08:53PM (#22521923)
> Legislative and regulatory debt can be a problem just like technical debt

I really wish there was more appreciation for this outside of tech. I'm disdainful of a lot of SV libertarianism, to say the least, but will gladly make common cause on this one point.

Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by blaser-waffle on Monday March 09, 2020 @11:01AM (#22525914)
Debt implies that we know there is a shortcoming and want/need to fix it, but don't have the time or knowledge.

The healthcare situation in the US may have started out as a hacky WW2 era fix, but has been explicitly and aggressively lobbied against for years at the highests levels of government.

Framing it in a technocratic context as "technical debt, but for laws and stuff" completely misses the intense crusade against it in the US.

Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by Ericson2314 on Monday March 09, 2020 @03:07PM (#22528607)
I'm not sure it misses the point. Technical debt is always poltical too, whether it's system admin / database admin work being automated away (or not!), or manager<->engineer friction on costs and deadlines.
Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by gnusty_gnurc on Sunday March 08, 2020 @08:07PM (#22521667)
I’m glad this is being raised, because it’s almost never discussed in the same “why is American healthcare so screwed up” discussion. It’s also a relatively important point re: the arguments people make against for-profit healthcare, precisely because we’ve had a system for almost a century where third parties are negotiating prices with providers under heavy regulation/incentivizing of the government.
Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by sseveran on Monday March 09, 2020 @08:35AM (#22524851)
There is nothing as permanent as a temporary solution.
Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by gizmo686 on Sunday March 08, 2020 @07:41PM (#22521516)
> I never understood why healthcare was tied to employment.

During World War 2, the US implemented a national wage freeze, with an exemption for insurance and pensions. Since companies still needed to compete for workers, this led to a significant growth in those benefits.

Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by HumblyTossed on Sunday March 08, 2020 @07:35PM (#22521476)
> I never understood why healthcare was tied to employment.

Because the people who keep it that way are the same people you hear say dumb crap like, "I don't want to pay for someone else's healthcare (ignoring the fact that that is the definition of insurance!)" when anyone brings up changing the way healthcare is run in the US of A.

They think only people who work deserve healthcare.

Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by macintux on Sunday March 08, 2020 @08:34PM (#22521822)
I suspect there's also resistance at the corporate level. Employee retention is easier when life itself is effectively conditional on employment.

You can save up enough money to pay the bills for a few months, but you effectively can't save up enough money to cover your own health care costs without some sort of insurance.

Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by orangecat on Sunday March 08, 2020 @11:36PM (#22522781)
Employee retention is easier when life itself is effectively conditional on employment.

On the other hand, companies also spend significant resources being health insurance brokers. Getting rid of that burden would be particularly helpful for small businesses and startups.

Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by macintux on Monday March 09, 2020 @12:34AM (#22523021)
I agree, and I initially assumed that would be a more widespread attitude within the corporate world. I later found out about the retention motivation.
Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by Frost1x on Sunday March 08, 2020 @09:50PM (#22522213)
This is absolutely critical. Giving the workforce reasonably attainable healthcare decoupled from employer would increase job mobility significantly. This is a win for labor and a loss for capital owners.

I would be far more willing to risk assets I had if I knew I'd still have basic necessities in life. You know, the luxuries the very wealthy have...

Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by throwawayjava on Sunday March 08, 2020 @10:46PM (#22522503)
Based on issue polling, we know that a majority of people who are opposed to the individual mandate also strongly support a ban on pre-existing conditions clauses. And also those same people oppose any form of universal healthcare.

But abstaining from health insurance right up until the point where you need it is the same as having other people pay for your healthcare. A ban on pre-existing conditions without an individual mandate is a form of welfare. So in actual practice many people who are nominally opposed to universally subsidized HC are in fact not opposed to universal subsidization of healthcare... as long as there's some nominal involvement with the insurance industry prior to use.

The broader point: many people don't realize that just because you're paying into something doesn't necessarily mean it isn't welfare. In a democratic society with a lot of individualism and distrust of government, sometimes this "hack" is the best way to deliver a welfare state. See also: social security.

Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by zaphirplane on Monday March 09, 2020 @01:52AM (#22523276)
Leaving the compassionate and human aspect out, because it’s not part of your point. Clearly if a subset of people are paying to cover those that are not, then the point is valid. Then you get into how much should a person pay thresholds, sliding scales ? Well then some are paying more than the cover they would get for themselves.
Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by maerF0x0 on Sunday March 08, 2020 @07:33PM (#22521466)
> I never understood why healthcare was tied to employment.

+1 its unclear to me why the pricing would go down for higher number of employees? The risk profile is still spread across many people in the case of contractors.

Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by toast0 on Sunday March 08, 2020 @08:01PM (#22521636)
A small employer (or individual payer) is buying insurance, and the insurance company is going to need a good reserve because the maximum benefit is large relative to premiums.

A large company often self-insures the healthcare cost, and is buying health plan administration. If high costs are not observed, the reserves can roll over to future years. Even if they don't self-insure, the possibility can be used to negotiate lower prices, and having data on past claims can show a less risky pool, etc.

Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by kgwgk on Sunday March 08, 2020 @08:02PM (#22521643)
Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by dboreham on Sunday March 08, 2020 @07:35PM (#22521471)
This is due to tax policy dating back long time.
Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by karljtaylor on Sunday March 08, 2020 @08:04PM (#22521655)
agreed, it goes a lot further back than ww2 https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=114045...
Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by marcinzm on Sunday March 08, 2020 @07:36PM (#22521481)
>I never understood why healthcare was tied to employment. Yes, it's a nice benefit, but it's not like your health needs change significantly if your job changes.

It's tied to employment because we have private health insurance and that doesn't really work without group plans. Employers are the most readily and widely accessible set of groups (unions are another for example).

Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by manigandham on Sunday March 08, 2020 @08:37PM (#22521840)
Employer as a group is completely arbitrary and can be redrawn by insurance underwriters to anything else (city, state, region, etc).
Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by marcinzm on Sunday March 08, 2020 @08:44PM (#22521879)
Insurance underwriters can't force a city to all take insurance with their company. Which is what employer group plans do.
Re:Quarantine will normalize WFH and recession will denormal... by manigandham on Sunday March 08, 2020 @08:57PM (#22521942)
We already had that on a federal level with ACA coverage penalties, now repealed but still enforced by California.

I think it would be much more viable if we get rid of the employment requirements.