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Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by 101404 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:26AM (#22422332)
An interesting learning was, how to most effectively frame a person if you want them to lose public support.

They first did the "rapist" framing. Making up a case that never existed and repeating it in the media all the time. Surprisingly, that didn't work as effectivity as expected.

So they switched the framing from "rapist" to "right wing". That seems to have achieved the intended outcome with many previous supporters.

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by odiroot on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:07AM (#22423002)
It's like straight out of Bolshevik handbook.

If you can catch a person stealing, it's open-shut case. Easy peasy.

If not, try to discredit them (appealing to the morals of the people) -- maybe they cheat on their spouse, or use prostitutes?

If that still doesn't work just try slapping an "enemy of the people" / fascist / reactionary label and see if it sticks.

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by deorder on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:08PM (#22427919)
They also tried to frame him as working for the Russians before and when that did not work as a pedophile:

https://wikileaks.org/Background-and-Documents-on-Attempts-t...

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by untog on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:51AM (#22422437)
The rape accusations were credible, he just refused to answer to them. That doesn’t mean they were invalid in the first place, it just means they’ll never be proven in a court of law.
Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by 101404 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:18AM (#22422609)
No, the police in Sweden invented them.

The UN special investigator documented the whole thing pretty thoroughly.

But apparently some people still stick with the lie.

Propaganda is pretty effective.

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by linuxftw on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:53AM (#22423402)
It was incredibly effective. His support dropped to almost nothing overnight because nobody wanted to be seen supporting a rapist.
Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by exikyut on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:55AM (#22422455)
Nope, he did offer to answer to them, repeatedly:

https://www.republik.ch/2020/01/31/nils-melzer-about-wikilea...

This article details more than I could ever have wanted to know about the entire situation. It is an excellent 10,000 ft view.

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by anonsivalley652 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:39AM (#22423254)
I would use more specific facts rather than pronouns. "They" were the Swedish prosecutor clearly acting on orders from their government either a) in furtherance of appeasing the US or b) someone who didn't like or was working for one of Assange's enemies, a con-artist, concocted a story with enough detail to convince an authority that crime potentially occurred.

It is transparent that Assange doesn't belong to either American political party but attempted to parlay the emails* into a hail-mary get-out-of-jail-(but-not-for-)free card by trying to appease Trump. On that, he gambled and lost, and now some idiots on the internet assume idiotic statements like "he's a Ruskie spy," "he loves Trump," or "he's Putin's best friend."

\* The emails were NOT from a Russian operative. Assange stresses this if anyone cares to listen. Furthermore, if someone watched Jimmy Dore, they'd know this is a continuation of anti-Russian conspiracy theories.

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by andrepd on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:21AM (#22423100)
>So they switched the framing from "rapist" to "right wing".

I don't know who is "they" but the shift in perception didn't need any prompting from anyone. It was Assange that started acting as Russia's stooge.

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by einpoklum on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:24AM (#22423727)
He "stated acting as Russia's stooge" when the Clinton people decided Russia was to blame for their 2016 elections campaign failing. Then suddenly everybody and their uncle became a Russian asset, Russian stooge, Putin puppet and so on.

Yes yes, we've heard it all before. Over 3 years of this stuff, with no evidence of any stoogery.

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by mcv on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:31AM (#22422348)
These are not things that "they" did, though. They're things that "he" did.
Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by shadowprofile77 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:38AM (#22422381)
Well, no. Assange did not accuse himself of rape and then push out a media narrative about it over successive months. "They" (in this case, Swedish and other legal authorities and various news agencies did). And though the question of his level of guilt in those cases remains somewhat ambiguous as far as I know, the now dropped rape cases have the whiff of political smear to them.

Regardless of Assange's merits or failures as an activist or human being, the current conditions he's being subjected to absolutely do indicate a man being made an example of for politically motivated reasons and in violation of basic legal guarantees. That is something that's far more dangerous than anything he himself is likely to be convicted of.

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by mcv on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:13AM (#22422576)
The way the rape case was initially dropped and then picked up again certainly seemed weird, and there may have been political pressure behind it. That doesn't mean it didn't happen, though. The stories of the women involved seemed very credible, and unlikely to have been made up, considering they were supporters of him.

But I totally agree that this treatment in this extradition case sounds terrible, and the judge seems strongly biased against him. Does not sound like a fair trial.

In any case, Assange is a controversial figure. He's done things I wholeheartedly support, and things I strongly oppose. I support his early fight against censorship and the release of the collateral murder video. I disagree with releasing all the material concerning sensitive operations unchecked and unedited. I am concerned by the rape stories, strongly oppose his self-centered grandstanding, and my working theory is that he went mad, possibly with power, due to the massive size of the Manning leaks. I supported the rape investigation, but oppose his extradition to the US, because I doubt he's ever going to get a fair trial there. And now it looks like even the extradition trial from the UK is not going to be fair.

He's a complex figure with good and bad sides. His are a bit more extreme than most. I find it hard to form a simple opinion about him, because nothing about this is simple. But it seems obvious to me that both blind support and total condemnation are wrong positions to take in this. I agree he's being made an example of for political reasons, and that's very wrong, but that doesn't automatically mean he's entirely innocent either.

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by johnrackles on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:34AM (#22422711)
> The stories of the women involved seemed very credible, and unlikely to have been made up, considering they were supporters of him.

The UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, Nils Melzer, disagrees: https://medium.com/@njmelzer/demasking-the-torture-of-julian...

Specifically, this section:

"Surely, I thought, Assange must be a rapist! But what I found is that he has never been charged with a sexual offence. True, soon after the United States had encouraged allies to find reasons to prosecute Assange, Swedish prosecution informed the tabloid press that he was suspected of having raped two women. Strangely, however, the women themselves never claimed to have been raped, nor did they intend to report a criminal offence. Go figure. Moreover, the forensic examination of a condom submitted as evidence, supposedly worn and torn during intercourse with Assange, revealed no DNA whatsoever — neither his, nor hers, nor anybody else’s. Go figure again. One woman even texted that she only wanted Assange to take an HIV test, but that the police were “keen on getting their hands on him”. Go figure, once more."

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by FireBeyond on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:27PM (#22428110)
"Go figure" seems such an odd phrasing for someone writing an objective investigation on such a serious matter.

I think there's a cake and eat it too. That the rape campaign was an organized smear campaign. That the combined resources of Sweden and the US (and possibly the UK) too's best ability at a smear campaign at someone was "may not have used a condom when he implied he would during a sexual encounter". That's a pretty sad indictment of those intelligence communities (regardless of the merits either way).

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by squarefoot on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:27PM (#22428096)
The important part is that the woman would have had consensual sex, then walked away with the condom to use it as evidence for something that didn't happen. This makes it sound like it was planned from the beginning.
Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by BigJ1211 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:40AM (#22422751)
The rape case is rather odd to say the least, as posted above by a user you might want to read this article: https://www.republik.ch/2020/01/31/nils-melzer-about-wikilea...

Basically it comes down to the story not adding up, drummed up charges, testimony that was changed by the police. After the headline was made on August 20th (accusing him of rape) the person that 'accused' him (she hadn't (yet)) was questioned on the 21st and only after that did she accuse him of 'rape' (not actually rape, but stealthing).

According to her he had intentionally broken the condom during sex. However the broken condom that was submitted into evidence had no DNA of her, nor of Assange.

Neither woman accused him of anything before headlines were being made apparently.

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by mcv on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:55AM (#22422889)
Not sure what "stealthing" is. I know that in Sweden, having sex with someone in a way they don't want, still counts as rape, and I think that's not unreasonable. It's certainly a different case than violent rape, but that doesn't mean it's 'not actually rape'.

I hadn't heard that the condom contained no DNA. That certainly sounds odd to me, but I'm no forensic expert. If that's sufficient proof that the whole story is a lie, then that's certainly worthy of investigation. False rape allegations are as serious as rape in my opinion.

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by BigJ1211 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @12:02PM (#22424856)
The page I linked is an interview with a United Nations investigator (Nils Melzer, UN Special Rapporteur on Torture). I'm just relaying what was written in a condensed format.

The lady who went to the police to force assange to do an HIV test never accused him of rape, they had unprotected sex and she wanted to ensure that she was safe.[1]

The second lady only accompanied the first. But the article had already been made and she only made a statement the day after. As for the reason to not clasify it as rape, it's probably due to a contradiction in her statement. [2]

Per the article: [1] "S.W. never accused Julian Assange of rape. She declined to participate in further questioning and went home. Nevertheless, two hours later, a headline appeared on the front page of Expressen, a Swedish tabloid, saying that Julian Assange was suspected of having committed two rapes."

[2] "... But she said that during sex, Assange had intentionally broken the condom. If that is true, then it is, of course, a sexual offense – so-called «stealthing». But the woman also said that she only later noticed that the condom was broken. ..."

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by einpoklum on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:36AM (#22423875)
> That doesn't mean it didn't happen, though.

As you well know, it is usually impossible to prove a negative, especially when it supposedly occurred in a private setting between an accuser and an accused.

> The stories of the women involved seemed very credible, and unlikely to have been made up, considering they were supporters of him.

They did not seem very credible. That is, it is credible that they encountered Assange, but the accusations not so much. At any rate, they were not credible enough for the Swedish authorities to decide to indict Assange (which they could have done).

> In any case, Assange is a controversial figure. ... I am concerned by the rape stories. I agree he's being made an example of for political reasons ... but that doesn't ... mean he's entirely innocent

Assange's current imprisonment is not about any allegations of sexual misconduct. He is not accused of any of that. Also, be aware that Assange was _made_ controversial by the treatment of those allegations and by the UK's insistence to put Assange in custody. Yet we know that the UK was motivated not by the Swedish affair but by the US, and went as far as to pressure Sweden not to drop their extradition request. So, regardless of whether you are skeptical of Assange's personal/sexual conduct - that matter was cynically used to persecute him politically.

And thus IMO you too have been manipulated to effectively support Assange's ordeal, including the extradition possibility, because of your - understandable - concern for possible victims of sexual misconduct.

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by FireBeyond on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:35PM (#22428180)
> And thus IMO you too have been manipulated to effectively support Assange's ordeal, including the extradition possibility, because of your - understandable - concern for possible victims of sexual misconduct.

I think this is entirely unfair. There are numerous implications in the parent, and others, posts that they recognize that other things, claims, etc. are going on. The assumption that anyone who fails to discount the other issues has been "manipulated" is bad faith...

... no more than assuming that Craig Murray is an impartial observer of events occurring here too, and not entirely biased as well.

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by resters on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:38AM (#22422382)
You believe that Assange is both a rapist and a right wing zealot? There is no evidence to support either claim.
Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by mcv on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:59AM (#22422476)
As pointed out elsewhere, the rape allegations are credible. And while I'm not calling him a right-wing zealot, and considered him left-libertarian for his dedication to free information and opposition to censorship, he did at some point seem to work with Trump and Russia in order to falsely discredit Clinton and get Trump elected. So again, there is evidence to support it.
Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by simiones on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:30AM (#22422682)
As pointed out by the UN Special Rapporteur on torture, they were not, and the Swedish authorities did everything to indicate that they didn't care about Assange's answers, they just wanted to force him out of the embassy.
Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by bjornsing on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @11:03AM (#22424177)
This is kind of how prosecutors in Sweden think though. They don’t want to ask some questions over the phone, to be answered by someone feeling physically safe. They want to lock you up for a day or two, to shake you up a bit, and then ask you the questions. It’s primitive as fuck, but kind of how it works here.
Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by boomboomsubban on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:11PM (#22427944)
This isn't the only case that has involved Sweden questioning people in another country, they have a treaty with the UK explicitly setting up a method of questioning people over video link in the UK. This was unacceptable for some reason with Assange.

And I doubt anyone involved thought that Assange has felt physically safe for the past decade.

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by 9HZZRfNlpR on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:15AM (#22423046)
Muellers report doesn't say so, I've read the whole thing from cover to cover and they do talk about him a lot. Yes, he was useful for Russia, just like he was when the American liberals hailed him as a hero and next Jesus when he was beneficial for them, shat on Bush, leaked Palin's emails etc. All politics are full of hypocritical behavior but Americans sure put it to next level, possibly because of the two party system, but I personally couldn't care less about it. It's sickening and vile.
Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by einpoklum on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @10:39AM (#22423909)
It should be noted that Mueller's report - the redacted version at least - doesn't contain evidence for any of the claims it does make. So even if Mueller had concluded "Wikileaks was working with Russia", you would not have found any basis for the claim in that report, besides more assertions to that effect.
Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by fit2rule on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:04AM (#22422513)
How credible is a rape case when the police themselves admitted to altering the reports of the accusers to fit the narrative given to them?
Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by tyingq on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:36AM (#22422722)
That is pretty curious.

“police officer IK, who had formally questioned SW on 20 August 2010, modified and replaced the content of SW’s original statement in the police database, upon instruction of her superior officer MG and without consulting SW.”

https://spcommreports.ohchr.org/TMResultsBase/DownLoadPublic... (The report itself)

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by mcv on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:57AM (#22422907)
Is that not tampering with evidence? If true, I'd expect some serious investigation into this.
Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by tyingq on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @09:45AM (#22423308)
Yes. The "ohchr.org" is the "Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights". I would imagine that's enough weight to warrant a local inquiry.
Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by BigJ1211 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:45AM (#22422792)
Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by hedwall on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:36AM (#22422725)
Citation needed.
Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by 101404 on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:22AM (#22422635)
Propaganda works.

You probably once supported his fight for free speech, until they made up the "Trump supporter" story.

With that, they actually managed to catch many people who previously supported him.

Of course, he was "left" and they told all his friends that he "now supports the enemy".

Was a really clever framing move.

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by mullingitover on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:03PM (#22427853)
Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by FireBeyond on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @05:37PM (#22428200)
Made up how, exactly?

> On Oct. 3, WikiLeaks, writing a day before it was set to announce the release of hacked Democratic emails, wrote to Trump Jr.: "Hiya. It'd be great if you guys could comment on /push this story."

* https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/the-sec...

* https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/14/563996442...

* https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-campaign...

Which aspects of these stories were "made up"?

Re:Assange Hearing Day 2 by FireBeyond on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @06:50PM (#22428819)
Further:

In a subsequent message to Trump Jr., WikiLeaks proposes what it acknowledges is "an unusual idea":

"Leak us one or more of your father's tax returns," the message suggests, "Most of the harm has already been done by the nyt [New York Times] and pre-empted by your father (tax writedowns)."

"If we publish them it will dramatically improve the perception of our impartiality," the message continues. "That means that the vast amount of stuff that we are publishing about Clinton will have much higher impact, because it won't be perceived as coming from a 'pro-Trump' 'pro-Russian' source, which the Clinton campaign is constantly slandering us with."