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Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by allovernow on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @04:01PM (#22417399)
>With autopilot engaged, I am monitoring everything - probably with more accuracy then if I was driving, due to the decreased cognitive load.

This sounds like a false sense of security. I find it extremely difficult to believe that a typical human can maintain their attention glued to the road in a purely passive manner for hours on end. Even if you were paying attention, without your hands constantly on the steering wheel you would have a slowed reaction time where milliseconds matter.

More importantly this kind of vigilance defeats the purpose of autopilot. I'm not necessarily saying you're doing anything dangerous since the autopilot function seems to be fairly safe, but your apologism comes across a bit like like an alcoholic claiming they drive better when drunk.

Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by zaroth on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @04:08PM (#22417480)
It's actually less exhausting than manual driving.

With manual driving you have to focus predominantly on one specific task - keeping your car between the lines. Bends in the road, poorly drawn lines, irregularities in the road surface, gusts of wind, all conspire to make this task require constant attention. Look in the rear view mirror for a couple seconds and then look back ahead and you might find that you've drifted, etc.

With AutoPilot the task has changed. You are no longer concerned with minute adjustments to the wheel, and you no longer have to maintain a constant high priority task of staying centered in the lines. Now, instead, you perform higher order functions of route planning, estimating traffic flow, observing other drivers and whether they are paying attention or drifting toward you, etc.

So by no means are you passive at all. It's actually extremely engaging, but significantly less monotonous form of driving. I find it quite pleasant, and not at all hard to stay engaged.

If I'm going to play a game on my phone, it's because I'm choosing to risk my life and the lives of the drivers/passengers around me, not because I couldn't handle looking out the window to pay attention.

Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by eaurouge on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @05:02PM (#22417958)
> You are no longer concerned with minute adjustments to the wheel, and you no longer have to maintain a constant high priority task of staying centered in the lines. Now, instead, you perform higher order functions of route planning, estimating traffic flow, observing other drivers and whether they are paying attention or drifting toward you, etc.

Staying centered in the lane should be muscle memory for an experienced driver. The higher order functions you mentioned are all things you should be doing regardless, with or without autopilot. I can perform those tasks just fine while driving a stick shift, most drivers can.

The other side of the coin is that reduced engagement in the driving process can lead to lapses in concentration. That's not just my experience, it's the same opinion expressed by F1 drivers tasked with bringing the lead car home in an unchallenging grand prix.

Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by LeifCarrotson on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @06:04PM (#22418496)
I've driven about 250,000 miles in the last 10 years (a lot of trips for work, coupled with a 50-mile commute for all but the last 2). 2 of 3 personal vehicles and 2 of the 5 work trucks were manual transmission.

Apparently it takes more than that to be an "experienced driver", because lanekeeping and speed control leave me very fatigued after a 3 hour drive. I became accustomed to eating in at lunch diners and sitting down for dinner halfway home but other co-workers were not fatigued and could go through the drive through and eat in the truck.

It's definitely easier than it was, and I don't have to think about the mechanics much at all anymore when backing up a 5th wheel or controlling a truck sliding in the snow, but this human doesn't have a chunk of my brain that can do lane centering automatically. That is not a universal brain function, every human can drive but it takes a lot more energy and concentration for some of us. My stress levels have gotten lower and my life has gotten a lot better since I realized that and cut my commute down to a 2.5 mile trip with ~monthly travel instead...

Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by AstralStorm on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @04:22AM (#22421583)
Still, you can have lane control without all the rest of alleged autopilot problems, as well as automatic speed control and emergency braking.

The system is supposed to immediately start heading when it detects you're not responding. Keeping hands on wheel is not good enough, an active attention system similar to train ones should be employed and sharper at that.

Something as simple as a steering wheel button which is required to press in half second after lighting a signal or automatic emergency system is engaged.

Perhaps even in all cars, not just automated, though it's hard to implement safely without automatic steering and lane system.

Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by spookthesunset on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @05:22PM (#22418137)
I dunno man. Adaptive cruise control with "stop and go" functionally is pretty fucking nice when you are in traffic. Just because something is "muscle memory" doesn't mean it is zero cost. Adaptive cruise control really makes stop & go a hell of a lot nicer to drive in 'cause you aren't constantly shuffling between two pedals.

As others have stated, it makes you quite a bit less irritable when the drive is over. That shit wears you out.

Next time you rent a car, get one with adaptive cruise control and give it a try. It is very handy!

Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by BluePen7 on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @06:17PM (#22418596)
> Staying in your lane should be muscle memory for an experienced driver

The amount of effort needed for this can vary wildly depending on the vehicle, it’s mechanical condition, and the speed it’s being driven at. Some vehicles are more prone to being bothered by wind, or grooves in the road, or require more constant adjustments to maintain lane position.

My tiredness is dependant on the vehicle.

I’ve had cars I’m exhausted from driving just after a 1 hour commute, and I’ve had a luxury sedan I could drive basically indefinitely (once did 3000 miles in 3 days, I didn’t mind it at all).

I wonder if the person you’re replying to previously drive a much less refined car, and would see most of the same benefits even when driving the Tesla manually.

Honestly the second part of their focus, simply being aware of their surroundings, should also be muscle memory for any experienced driver. That’s probably why they find driving so tiring, because they don’t plan ahead enough to keep a peaceful flow, rather than slightly too late scramble to gather information when they have to change lanes or something.

Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by zaroth on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @06:33PM (#22418719)
> I wonder if the person you’re replying to previously drive a much less refined car, and would see most of the same benefits even when driving the Tesla manually.

Yeah, I’ve driven shit boxes (see my comment about the Toyota Tercel stick shift).

But I still much prefer long drives in my Model 3 rather than my wife’s GL450. Before I got the Model 3 I drove an Infiniti G35 for 12 years, which was a perfectly “refined” car IMO.

> That’s probably why they find driving so tiring, because...

I guess you just have to try it. Again, I’m not saying driving is this exhausting thing that requires white-knuckled concentration. I’m saying that with AP it is just better in every way. You’re totally free to disagree if your personal experience with AP is different, but I think speculating on my driving ineptitude or poor choice of vehicle is kind of pointless / shooting the messenger.

Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by kenhwang on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @05:47PM (#22418356)
Adaptive cruise with stop/go and lane centering is a feature offered in many cars now. So it's not like Tesla/autopilot has a unique value proposition there anymore.

Mentally, I find auditing the system while it drives way more fun and less exhausting than actually driving on an uneventful highway.

Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by lostapathy on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @07:03PM (#22418910)
I have two vehicles - one older, and one a newer Honda with lane keeping assist and adaptive cruise control.

I can say, without a doubt, I am less fatigued and more alert after even an hour drive in the Honda. I was skeptical before I had it, but I'm sold now. It's not that you "aren't driving" or paying attention, but not having to deal with the most basic aspects of driving makes a surprisingly difference.

Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by rusticpenn on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @07:07AM (#22422242)
I disagree. I recently drove a VW tiguan with lane correction tech and it was really helpful on a long drive, helped me focus on other things as the previous poster said.
Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by zaroth on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @06:08PM (#22418533)
I’m not saying that staying in lane is “difficult” in any way. I haven’t been in an accident since I was 18 years old, save for someone who backed into the rear quarter-panel of my car in a parking lot as I drove past them. I also spent several years driving stick, back in high school and for several years after when I drove an old beater Toyota Tercel.

Staying centered in a lane requires constant minor adjustments which are not entirely predictable. It’s perfectly easy and totally muscle memory when you keep a distant gaze, as they teach in driver school.

Because of this we are taught to take quick glances in your mirrors, and to check blind spots before changing lanes, etc. But you have to maintain focus ahead pretty much constantly. Everything else is secondary because it will cause drifting in your lane while you address it.

That same distant gaze—which is taught because it increases peripheral vision—can also, by the way, contribute to “drivers stare” or “blind staring” where your eyes are open and focused on the horizon but your brain isn’t really registering what’s happening around you.

I’ll also add that observing other drivers on the road, it is rare to see someone perfectly centered and maintaining that perfect center for mile after mile. They will drift left and right in the lane, sometimes enough to make you wonder what their plan is, or what else they may be doing in there. AutoPilot doesn’t just make driving easier for the driver, it makes driving easier for cars around you because the car moves more predictably.

My main point, speaking from experience, is that you actually can be totally engaged in the driving process even without your hand on the wheel. It may sound paradoxical to you just because it’s the only way you’ve ever driven.

Between the 1) constant touches that Tesla needs to feel on the wheel, the 2) guidance computer showing your immediate surroundings, upcoming traffic conditions, and route planning, and 3) the ability to spend more time on higher order driver functions... basically without trying to nerd out, it’s more like piloting a spacecraft than driving a car. It’s fun, and engaging, and IMO a lot safer. By no means is it boring.

Here’s what I will say — that someone who would drive recklessly by using a phone while driving, they may feel like they can “get away with it” better with AutoPilot, just because the car isn’t swerving in the lane when they take their eyes off the road. And you know what, most of the time they actually are safer making that reckless choice with AP than without it.

So the issue is actually incredibly nuanced. Cars today are not built to always prevent drivers from driving recklessly. We do this because driving is a form of freedom, and being subjugated to a machine which is supposed to “enforce perfect driving hygiene” is going to be a very frustrating and at times a buggy and unbearable process.

Instead, with or without ADAS, we rely on personal responsibility. This is a terribly flawed and imperfect solution, but until we actually have FSD and humans are totally out of the loop it is IMO the only option.

Once true FSD is live, we can regulate a date when manual driving can become illegal.

Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by FriendlyNormie on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @07:14PM (#22418989)
You want a world where one powerful company can decide to kill you remotely with the click of a button and make it look like an accident. They don’t even need to be the ones to do it, all it takes is one Bluetooth RCE worm to infect all Teslas and stay dormant until a specific time and date when the payload activates and steers them all into trees at 90 mph. Hopefully the opposite of your twisted fever dream happens and we can make all forms of computed driving illegal.
Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by docspace on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @04:23PM (#22417602)
This is why I’m such a strong critic of the vehicular operating habits of others (read: backseat driver). I don’t care about the lines, the lines are the least of our worries. STOP TAILGATING THAT TRUCK, DAVE.
Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by veritas3241 on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @05:41PM (#22418302)
I completely agree with how you framed this and I articulate very similar points to people when they ask me about Autopilot.

I'm no longer exhausted after a long drive and it's amazing.

Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by Fricken on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @04:20PM (#22417574)
Making an activity more boring does not help people to pay closer attention to it. Though not obvious in principle, it has been studied.
Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by zaroth on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @04:29PM (#22417683)
My contention, and speaking from experience, is that AutoPilot makes driving less boring, and also less exhausting.
Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by clairity on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @04:29PM (#22417674)
> "You are no longer concerned with minute adjustments to the wheel, and you no longer have to maintain a constant high priority task of staying centered in the lines. Now, instead, you perform higher order functions of route planning, estimating traffic flow, observing other drivers and whether they are paying attention or drifting toward you, etc."

i dunno, if you have trouble doing both the minute adjustments (which is usually a mostly subconscious task) and the higher-order functions while driving, maybe you need more practice/training.

there are 30-40k motor vehicle deaths per year in the US (and over a million worldwide). distracted driving is the main culprit (not speed, as most people assume).

we should expect no less than this kind of active driving from every driver.

Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by tristanb on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @04:43PM (#22417803)
Im not having trouble. It enables me to be less tired on a long trip, and as a result, have quicker reaction times than without. I'd highly encourage you to try it.
Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by tristanb on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @04:44PM (#22417821)
FWIW I'm also a fairly experienced pilot, motorcyclist and I have had one driving accident of no fault in 18 years of driving.
Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by bananabreakfast on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @05:13PM (#22418050)
This is an insane take on driving a car.

And you've very clearly never tried autopilot.

"Where milliseconds matter"? You are wildly overestimating the abilities of literally any driver. No one reacts that fast, in any situation.

Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by clouddrover on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @08:59PM (#22419600)
> "Where milliseconds matter"? You are wildly overestimating the abilities of literally any driver. No one reacts that fast, in any situation.

Which is precisely the problem. When autopilot goes wrong at high speed the driver needs to react that quickly and that's an unrealistic expectation to put on the driver.

Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by stefan_ on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @04:23PM (#22417611)
You know how it goes, every driver is better than the average driver. Much like in science, the ones who think they have it all figured out know the least.
Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by loa_in_ on Wednesday February 26, 2020 @08:57AM (#22422910)
I would say that I do very much have an incentive to be extremely wary of what's going on ahead even when not driving: my safety, people's safety, children safety, insurance premiums, cost of vehicle repairs. How can you say there's any less reason to stay focused.
Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by jliptzin on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @04:35PM (#22417732)
I think you should give it a try yourself. I use autopilot every day and I understand and agree with exactly what he is saying. I consider myself a very safe driver and my record proves that.
Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by ceejayoz on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @05:11PM (#22418031)
These sorts of claims are hard to evaluate.

I've heard people claim to drive better drunk, and justify it with their perfect crash record. I remain fairly dubious.

Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by bananabreakfast on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @05:14PM (#22418063)
If people who have never tried autopilot refute the claims of those that have with pithy aphorisms, I remain unconvinced.
Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by ceejayoz on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @05:17PM (#22418086)
Do you treat "essential oils cured my cancer and depression" claims with similar credulity?
Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by tristanb on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @04:07PM (#22417464)
Cool - you're welcome to your opinion, but I disagree. I do the same in an airplane, though reaction time is less important.
Re:Federal safety official slams Tesla, regulators for misus... by foepys on Tuesday February 25, 2020 @04:27PM (#22417649)
Since reaction time was GP main and only argument, I don't understand what your comparison to an airplane is supposed to tell us.