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Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by needusername on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @05:30PM (#22303658)
> It rolls a new number every time I use it, so i can pay at sketchy gas stations at 2 AM

Nope. That's deliberately confusing Apple marketing. You get one PAN per device. The new "number" is just the EMV unpredictable number. You get that with any EMV card.

https://emvlab.org/emvtags/show/t9F37/

> and not care about skimming.

Because the PAN is only valid for online authorized EMV transactions.

Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by bret791 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @10:38PM (#22305508)
Mostly there, you get a tokenized PAN (DPAN) for every card enrollment. Remove, and re-add a card to your digital wallet and you'll get a new DPAN.

The unpredictable number is an (of a few) inputs into the generation of the CVV3, which is also based on a dynamic key from the issuer. Key rotation is on the order of weeks to months (depending on issuer). This is the "unique number" per transaction (part of tag 57 https://emvlab.org/emvtags/show/t57/ )

DPAN is only good for card-present transactions, provided CVV3, transaction counters, etc.

Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by CKN23-ARIN on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @11:01PM (#22305627)
> Remove, and re-add a card to your digital wallet and you'll get a new DPAN.

Has anyone made a habit of rotating DPANs on a regular basis like this? Does Apple or your bank get irritated at some point?

Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by avianlyric on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @04:26AM (#22307304)
I would avoid doing this. Mastercard guidance (and I assume Visa is the same) is to treat this behaviour as fraudulent.

I once had a very long call trying to explain to a very upset Mastercard person why this behaviour wasn’t an issue. I don’t think they understood.

Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by fouc on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @05:16AM (#22307571)
Mastercard client/user or Mastercard support/staff?
Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by avianlyric on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @11:52AM (#22310393)
Mastercard staff member responsible for Apply Pay best practices.
Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by jackjeff on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @01:34AM (#22306436)
I do. Every update of watchOS since version 6 seems to break activity syncing between my watch and phone. So I end up having to restore from backup every time, and thus reset ApplePay.

So far my banks have not complained.

Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by SiNTEx on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @01:12AM (#22306306)
Only possible problem I can think of is that you would trigger some of the fraud rules on Apple’s, network’s or issuer’s side as all theses parties have the ability to trigger yellow or red flows during the token provisioning. You would then probably have to call your issuer for assistance every time you want to provision new card to your device.
Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by winter_blue on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @02:27AM (#22306695)
I involuntarily do this (annually), when getting a new iPhone every year. My iOS Wallet app resets, and I'm forced re-add all my cards (although it does remember what cards where added previously). Never thought too much about it.
Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by robk on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @01:28AM (#22306408)
Why would you do this?
Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by CKN23-ARIN on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @01:43AM (#22306469)
So that retailers won't be able to use DPAN to uniquely identify me across transactions.
Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by divbzero on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @02:07AM (#22306580)
On the flip side, the ability to look up your past purchases can enable returns without receipts.

The other week a store clerk failed to look up my purchase when using my physical credit card, but succeeded when using the same credit card via Apple Pay. I would have been out of luck if I had rotated my Apple Pay number.

Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by javajosh on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @07:43AM (#22308351)
Or perhaps your device could store previous identifiers and offer those to the vendor to lookup in their system? Assuming the vendor isn't doing something shady like building an association table between identifiers, this would preserve your privacy and let you change your identifier as much as you like.
Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by nielsbot on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @03:22AM (#22306952)
I think there's also a button in settings to get a new card number?
Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by mehrdada on Saturday February 15, 2020 @12:17AM (#22333429)
That's an Apple Card thing I believe, not Apple Pay--and it rotates a different card number than the one in your physical Apple Card or device-specific card number. It's the one you're supposed to use on legacy online stores and rotating it is similar to ShopSafe, etc.
Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by jonknee on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @07:48PM (#22304639)
Yes, so unlike almost all the gas pumps before that used just the mag stripe it's much more secure. Contactless at the pump is great.
Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by anamexis on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @05:37PM (#22303725)
So, yep? They didn't claim it was a unique feature of Apple Pay.
Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by needusername on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @05:45PM (#22303808)
They make it sound like there is a special "Apple sauce" that they built and strongly suggest they generate a new PAN for every transaction. The suggest that a "token" instead of a PAN is used for the transaction. This is very misleading. If you read it very carefully they are not wrong, but for the uninitiated a wrong impression is crated.

They are using an industry standard protocol that is 25 years old.

Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by sjwright on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @08:29PM (#22304876)
You are right that the core of Apple Pay security is functionally identical to chip and contactless transactions.

However a seemingly trivial but important difference with Apple Pay is that it doesn't use your physical card number—instead it uses a different card number randomly assigned to your device. The payment networks can therefore recognise Apple Pay-assigned numbers and know to demand full Apple Pay authentication when they are used.

This reduces the scope for downgrade attacks.

Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by alextheparrot on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @12:44AM (#22306155)
Insightful commentary on some of the value-adds of Apple Pay.

I do wonder if the security gain is significant enough to make Apple Pay integration a gross-positive for all parties. Apple appears to charge a ~0.1-0.2% fee per transaction made via Apple Pay [0], so it might be reasonable that the security adds enough value in its own right to make sense from a fraud/insurance perspective.

Might also be the fact that possibly being "Top of wallet" on Apple Pay (Which users might use anyway, irrespective of if their normal card is supported) provides enough value to take a small hit in fees.

[0] https://appleinsider.com/articles/16/02/22/apple-halved-tran...

Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by muppetman on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @04:17AM (#22307252)
I live in New Zealand and both Google Pay and my Garmin watch have unique numbers. This doesn't seem to be Apple exclusive at all? I have 2 Garmin watches, 2 Google Pay capable devices and a single physical card and the numbers are all different. At least, the last four digits are.
Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by sjwright on Thursday February 13, 2020 @07:07PM (#22322669)
Nobody said it was an Apple exclusive.

But to be fair, after trying to do payments in various other ways, Google eventually built their Android payments platform to be an almost perfect 1:1 recreation of Apple Pay.

(And this is a recurring theme with Android. I'm not saying Google aren't within their rights to build things however they wish, but it is remarkable how often Google make loud smug noises about how they've done things differently to Apple—only for those points of differentiation to quietly disappear a few years later. Say what you will about Apple, a company that makes plenty of horrible mistakes, but it's remarkable how often they do get things exactly right the first time.)

Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by muppetman on Monday February 17, 2020 @10:55PM (#22353317)
How does one read "However a seemingly trivial but important difference with Apple Pay is that it doesn't use your physical card number" that as not suggesting it's something only Apple does?
Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by blub on Wednesday February 12, 2020 @11:43AM (#22310310)
Is that US-only maybe? I've had the last 4 digits of my CC printed on receipts paid with ApplePay in Europe.
Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by sjwright on Thursday February 13, 2020 @07:25PM (#22322773)
The last four digits of your physical credit card number are stored by Apple Pay for the purposes of account identification.

There are varying reports of people seeing unfamiliar (i.e. device) numbers and their card number on receipts. I've no knowledge about exactly why there's no consistency, but my suspicion is that Apple Pay sends these four digits as metadata during the contactless transaction. Older contactless terminals would ignore it and naively print four digits of the account number, whereas newer terminals might recognise that metadata and print that on the receipt instead.

It's also possible that the physical card's last four digits are being sent back to the terminal by the network.

Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by function_seven on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @07:24PM (#22304485)
> but for the uninitiated a wrong impression is created

I'm somewhat uninitiated, and I definitely got the wrong impression. So thanks for your clear-up.

Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by reaperducer on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @06:49PM (#22304244)
suggest that a "token" instead of a PAN is used for the transaction

Maybe because people know the word "token" and don't know what a "PAN" is. Apple has built a trillion-dollar company by speaking at the level of its customers, not technobabble.

Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by bcrosby95 on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @07:49PM (#22304645)
Your average customer doesn't know what either really mean.
Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by lilyball on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @08:24PM (#22304834)
I know that a "token" is some value that is used in the transaction. I still have no idea what a PAN is.
Re:Apple Pay on pace to account for 10% of global card trans... by MXfive on Tuesday February 11, 2020 @10:12PM (#22305391)
Primary account number, the 16 digit card number.