News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by martin_a on Thursday January 16, 2020 @06:38AM (#22063602)
Somewhat offtopic, but I'd be interested in an answer.

Do non-military planes have some kind of missile detection capabilites?

Like: Did the pilots know what was about to happen or that something was approaching them with high speed and whatnot or were they just blown out of the sky without the slightest idea?

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by pjc50 on Thursday January 16, 2020 @06:42AM (#22063625)
No - and in any case there isn't anything they can do if they are targeted, they don't have active countermeasures, the airframe can't handle evasive maneuvers, and they have a huge heat/radar signature.

It's .. not a problem the civilian manufacturers should be attempting to solve.

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by redis_mlc on Thursday January 16, 2020 @07:53AM (#22063996)
> the airframe can't handle evasive maneuver

That's not exactly true for +ve g's:

"from -1 to +2.5 (or up to +3.8 depending on design takeoff weight)"

If you were at 10,000' and you saw a radar-guided SA-2, diving downwards toward it would likely make it miss.

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by mzs on Thursday January 16, 2020 @06:46PM (#22070343)
How does a pilot see something obscured by the nose and rest of the plane coming up?
Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by martin_a on Thursday January 16, 2020 @06:45AM (#22063640)
Thanks for your answer!

> It's .. not a problem the civilian manufacturers should be attempting to solve.

No, absolutely not. I was just wondering if they had at least the slightest idea what was about to happen.

Kind of gruesome to pass away like this, if you think about it. On the other hand: You can just as surprisingly be killed by a speeding car. Really bad in any way.

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by rvnx on Thursday January 16, 2020 @08:37AM (#22064355)
I'm sure they had in mind the specific tensions and in their head that a missile can strike them.

About a similar situation (in Ukraine): "It was not possible to ascertain at which moment the occupants died"

"Victims Could Have Remained Conscious During Fall"

https://time.com/3028548/mh17-malaysia-airlines-victims-ukra...

It was likely horrible here too.

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by SiempreViernes on Thursday January 16, 2020 @08:08AM (#22064109)
In 2006 two air planes collided (almost) head-on over the Amazonas, by virtue of the impressive accuracy autopilots can maintain. Flying things move too fast for you to have much chance to notice anything after they've become close enough to see.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gol_Transportes_Aéreos_Flight_...

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by KuiN on Thursday January 16, 2020 @08:35AM (#22064345)
William Langewiesche has an excellent article on Gol 1907: 'The Devil at 37,000ft'.

Goes into a bit more depth on your point. Our expectation is that increasing use of tech in planes should make us safer, but in this case it _increased_ the chance of a mid-air collision. Of course planes have TCAS (Traffic Collision Avoidance System) to stop this happening, but it's no magic bullet ... particularly when it's turned off.

https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2009/01/air_crash200901

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by kijin on Thursday January 16, 2020 @07:10AM (#22063762)
Air Force One is based on a civilian airframe. Of course the Hollywood movie was full of exaggerations, but I wouldn't be surprised if the actual Air Force One was reinforced in some ways to afford a certain level of protection for its precious cargo.

How much could Boeing, for example, modify one of their civilian airframes to support active countermeasures and make it capable of withstanding more stressful maneuvers without altering the outside too much? Quite a lot, I would think.

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by blantonl on Thursday January 16, 2020 @07:54AM (#22064010)
Probably not much can be realistically done actually.

Airlines are hypersensitive to weight since that affects range and fuel costs. The action that American Airlines took to remove complementary magazines from their flights saved millions a year in fuel costs.

In Air Force One's case - they probably have some active countermeasures (flares) and some electronic countermeasures (jamming) built in, but that's about it. Probably useless against a foreign state's advanced SAM capabilities. Much of the extra weight capabilities are most likely taken up by communications equipment to provide the President and staff command authority. Minus some rudimentary capabilities for low-end SAMs, Air Force One is probably just as vulnerable to being shot down as your average cargo airliner.

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by avh02 on Thursday January 16, 2020 @07:52AM (#22063992)
air force one and some El Al planes were/are fitted with countermeasures.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al#Onboard_missile_defense_...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_VC-25

>All wiring is covered with heavy shielding for protection from a nuclear electromagnetic pulse in the event of a nuclear attack. The aircraft also has electronic countermeasures (ECMs) to jam enemy radar, flares to avoid heat-seeking missiles, and chaff to avoid radar-guided missiles

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by rvnx on Thursday January 16, 2020 @08:28AM (#22064276)
I think the best countermeasure in Israel is the heavy interrogation you get when leaving the airport
Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by jrockway on Thursday January 16, 2020 @08:56AM (#22064506)
People on the ground with missile launchers don't go through airport security.
Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by rjsw on Thursday January 16, 2020 @08:13AM (#22064142)
The P-8 [1] is based on a civilian airframe too, doesn't look very different to a 737 from the outside.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_P-8_Poseidon

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by kreft on Thursday January 16, 2020 @07:46AM (#22063963)
El-Al planes do.

"Since the early 2000s, El Al has been the only commercial airline to fit its planes with systems to defend against anti-aircraft missiles."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Al#Onboard_missile_defense_...

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by Chris2048 on Thursday January 16, 2020 @06:43AM (#22063632)
I always find it funny in sci-fi: "their missiles have locked on to us!"
Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by lolc on Thursday January 16, 2020 @06:58AM (#22063699)
Granted this works only for active radar-guided missiles, but those can easily be detected by their radar shining right at you. Maybe all the missiles in sci-fi are radar-guided?
Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by radu_floricica on Thursday January 16, 2020 @07:23AM (#22063830)
Or they have behavioral analysis AI that can tell when a missile is "locked" on target.
Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by Chris2048 on Thursday January 16, 2020 @07:18AM (#22063804)
They "lock on" before the missile if fired.
Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by lolc on Thursday January 16, 2020 @10:03AM (#22065115)
How would the target know it was locked upon?
Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by jaywalk on Thursday January 16, 2020 @01:43PM (#22067525)
By seeing a constant high-energy radar signal, which would distinguish it from surveillance radar.
Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by Chris2048 on Thursday January 16, 2020 @10:54AM (#22065635)
That's my point. Maybe a notification protocol? Seems to be used as a warning sometimes..
Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by saberdancer on Thursday January 16, 2020 @04:56PM (#22069445)
Others have already commented, but normal surveillance radar is like a spotlight from the tower. It goes around and scans the area. If they determine that you are important, the radar can "lock on" to you which means that it will no longer scan around but would shine the light on you constantly.

If they want to shoot at you, they turn on another even stronger more focused light to improve accuracy.

Military today have ability to detect enemy targetting radars and when they lock on so having such a thing in SciFi does not seem strange to me.

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by lolc on Thursday January 16, 2020 @04:01PM (#22068875)
Ah sorry I misunderstood your comment. I thought you wanted to say it was obvious for the target to know. Haha yes a notification protocol would be a weird thing to have. It would be gamed the millisecond things went beyond friendly warnings.
Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by magduf on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:04AM (#22065767)
The same way they do now: by detecting whatever the attacker is using to sense and target them. Today, that's usually radar. In sci-fi, maybe it's tachyon beams or something.
Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by Nasrudith on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:10AM (#22065833)
Aside from detecting any guidance signal the trajectory changing towards them is a giveaway that it is homing and not just a dumb projectile that they are in the path of.
Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by leetcrew on Thursday January 16, 2020 @07:55AM (#22064024)
even if the missile isn't using active guidance (ie laser/radar), it's pretty easy to detect anything with an engine in space. there aren't a lot of other explanations for a small object on an intercept course for your ship at high acceleration.
Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by saberdancer on Thursday January 16, 2020 @05:00PM (#22069475)
I'm not sure if this is true, if the missile is coming head on. If it is made in a stealthy way, the "head" of the missile could obscure the engine area and make the plume invisible to the target. Having low RCS alongside with hidden plume could make a passively targetted missile relatively stealthy to the target.

Ofcourse, anyone with enough offset to the target would be able to easily detect the engine and thermal release but the target could be unaware.

Another method to hide it is if missile uses some kind of obstacle in order to accelerate behind, for example you fire your missiles and they accelerate when a moon or a planet break line of sight from the target to the missiles. This would make their acceleration burn invisible to the target and could get them very close without being noticed.

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by leetcrew on Thursday January 16, 2020 @06:57PM (#22070440)
if you're curious about this topic, I highly recommend checking out the webpage linked in the sibling comment, "There Ain't No Stealth in Space" if you're curious about this topic.

tl;dr: it's exceedingly difficult to hide anything that consumes power in space. the rcs thrusters would either be too weak to achieve the delta v to hit the target, or the friction from the thrust against the nozzle would unstealth the missile. even the radiation from the onboard computer would likely stand out against the cosmic background. a missile like you describe could potentially evade current detection systems, but would almost certainly be detected by any civilization where ship-to-ship space combat is feasible. and not in a handwavy future tech way, but just from extrapolating current tech. I highly recommend checking out that page. it makes for a great read.

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by saberdancer on Friday January 17, 2020 @03:10AM (#22072804)
I've read it and mostly agree. The article even talks about the "solution" I mentioned (they call it cold plate). Stealth in space is impossible if you use constraints they used (solar system coverage with sensors and need to hide a ship with life support).

What I've talked more is about a missile. Missile can fly "cold", it could even be multistage so that after it's acceleration burn it can drop of a hot lower stage and continue to the target completely cold. If you add a cold plate and "terrain masking" you could effectively use a missile stealthily. Ofcourse if there is a full system sensor coverage this is not possible, but I've said that in my initial comment as well. You may be able to hide the heat from your target, but not from everyone.

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by krapp on Thursday January 16, 2020 @07:59AM (#22064045)
Obligatory link to the "There Ain't No Stealth In Space" article at Project Rho[0].

[0]http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/spacewardetect....

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by mkagenius on Thursday January 16, 2020 @07:55AM (#22064021)
And how difficult it is to identify a civilian plane vs a weapon?

Few months back India shot down its own Helicopter and now Iran shot a whole air plane. And they spend gigantic amount of money on defense. How lacking is the technology!

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by chii on Thursday January 16, 2020 @08:48AM (#22064436)
> And how difficult it is to identify a civilian plane vs a weapon?

if there is such a way, then your enemy planes can just as easily masquerade as a civilian craft and evade the missile!

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by Nasrudith on Thursday January 16, 2020 @11:05AM (#22065782)
The way to make do it work is that a civilian profile would utterly suck as a missle - pbviously 9-11 demonstrated limitations of it.

Air traffic control messages and flight paths could help with that but there are complications - especially when sending out radio communication could light themselves up as a target.

Theoretically fiber optics and dedicated communication towers could separate the functions but there would be considerable logistical implications to that and well - even first world nations with a large military budget don't put that high of a priority on avoiding collateral damage.

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by mkagenius on Thursday January 16, 2020 @09:28AM (#22064797)
> easily masquerade as a civilian craft

How does one do that easily?

Re:How The New York Times Verified the Iran Missile-Strike F... by martin_a on Thursday January 16, 2020 @10:28AM (#22065384)
Well, if it's only some "signature" that is broadcasted (or not), one could flip a switch and appear as a civilian aircraft.