I completely agree. It should be a fixed price, incentivizing the driver to take the most efficient route.

I also don’t want my driver to see where I’m going, because not all rides are big fares. Sometimes I must get somewhere close and I don’t want a hassle.

Uber has gotten a lot of bad press lately and I think unfairly so.

What’s worse is Amazon’s gig program. Let’s say your doing jobs like assembling BBQs and Treadmills for customers. They don’t pay trip time to the job, so you can drive 40 miles only to find out half the screws are missing. You must get the customer to request the parts, come back, only to find it’s wrong again.

You take a big hit refusing the job but you have to take all the shitty work to get the chance of a real profitable gig.

Much worse than ride share semantics, IMO.

Anyway - another reason to use Lyft.

Don’t the same laws apply to lyft too?

It does, but Lyft might respond to the law differently.

Indeed. When I was visiting the US, this was one of the prime reasons I used Uber over regular taxis.

In Uber I just added my destination and then I could decide if the price was acceptable to me or not. With a taxi you end up at your destination and pray the price isn't too bad.

That's exactly why I used Uber in new cities - I don't know which cab company is honest and which is crooked, I don't know what's the good rate looks like, I don't know whether the route from airport to my hotel is supposed to take 10 minutes or 40 minutes... I don't have time or desire to conduct this research, yet less after a long and tiring flight. In Uber, I get price upfront - if it sounds reasonable, I go, if it sounds too much, I look for the other options. Much simpler.

Maybe for taxi apps. But usually with taxis, if you hail one, or call an operat you can ask for a quote? Or doesn't that work in the US?

> But usually with taxis, if you hail one, or call an operat you can ask for a quote?

They can give you a quote but there's no telling if it's going to be accurate or not, as the final price is based on a meter for hail taxis in almost all locations within a defined area. When you get to your destination what you were quoted is irrelevant, you just have to pay the price. So what's the point in the quote?

I'd expect the driver to stop the meter, if it's on its way over the given quote. I'd also be prepared to pay the quote, even if the meter shows less. If not, what'd be the point in getting a quote?

> I'd expect the driver to stop the meter

That’s not allowed in most jurisdictions - the driver would lose their licence. They have to drive on the meter and can't barter separately unless it's outside the region.

> If not, what'd be the point in getting a quote?

There isn’t one! That's what I was saying!

Interesting. At least in Norway its quite common in my experience for a driver to turn off the meter if they've made a wrong turn or similar obvious mistake that makes the trip go long, were the driver is clearly at fault.

I guess that means that the only way for a driver to give discounts, would be to pay the difference themselves, incurring tax on the discount?

They're a blue collar guy trying to feed their family on a low-wage job with variable income, they have like zero incentive to do so man. They're also gambling that they can potentially intimidate a rider who says they won't pay x price because of a detour, mistake, or misquoted price. The driver could be larger or tougher than the rider, and you're in a small space with them.

I had a larger driver try to intimidate me into giving them a cash tip on top of the one I'd already written in via credit card. (I refused). This is why I never, ever use taxis now

They were already doing that! Last year, I needed a ride to get home and was quoted $11.88 in their app, but we got stuck in an unusually bad traffic jam for an hour and they billed me $28.26 instead -- that's more than double what they quoted me!

Playing devils advocate here. I prefer the predictability as well. But assuming an honest driver, it’s not usually their fault you got stuck in traffic or the ride took longer than expected. Should he/she not get paid for the extra time they drove?

Driver getting paid and the passenger paying are two different transactions; that's one of the reasons there's a company in between them. So while the driver should be compensated, this doesn't necessarily means the particular passenger should be charged extra. The company in the middle has an opportunity to pool such risk.

On top of that, with all the tech specialists Uber hires, with all the complex tech they brag about, with all the data they suck in - and given that they know your starting point and your destination - how come that they can't include traffic in the price estimation? It's not like traffic jams materialize suddenly, out of nowhere, and disappear in the flash. With the data it has, Uber could tell in advance that your ride will be stuck in traffic, and price accordingly.

> how come that they can't include traffic in the price estimation? It's not like traffic jams materialize suddenly, out of nowhere, and disappear in the flash.

Even traffic indication in Google Maps isn't that accurate, I often get into a red section where there might have been a jam 15-20 min ago but it cleared up when I got there.

Those traffic indicators aren',t really live, more like how it was 30 minutes in the past.

And why should a company give you some insurance for a traffic jam? Can you find another example where companies are paying for "things happened"?

Options? Fixed-rate mortgages? Salaries that are stated as a number of dollars, not a percentage of company profit? "We will charge you perhaps a bit more / pay you perhaps a bit less but in exchange we will take the risk of the real value fluctuating and your number is guaranteed" is a super common deal.

More fundamentally, why should they do it? Because they think it'll get customers, and as a big company they can absorb the risk.

Every single company that ships things to customers. If it gets damaged in transit it is their problem not your problem. If traffic is bad it is the shipping companies problem.

Every single company that offers a warranty. If something unexpected caused an issue in creating the good (in this case a ride from a to b) it is their problem not your problem.

>Can you find another example where companies are paying for "things happened"?

Airlines.

How much Uber pays their drivers is not the customer's problem. If Uber has to take a loss because they quoted too low a price, so be it.

That is the entire point, they are not "Ubers drivers", that is what most people do not want to accept

You are hiring a contractor to pick you up, and drop you off, not a "uber driver"

This is no different than going to Angie's List to find a Contractor to fix your broken pipe

Now Uber has been attempting to talk out of both sides of their mouths on this topic, but I find it hard to believe people do not understand the reality here.

Maybe I have too much faith in the intelligence of people

Wait, does that mean that if I'm an uber driver, I could decide to just give a flat 100 USD quote, and anyone wanting to pay a premium could choose me in the app? And I could theoretically build up a loyal following based on quality of service?

Because that would make it a marketplace for contractors.

I always assumed Uber claimed some standard of service (all trips will be of equal quality, drivers and cars are replaceable) - in which case it's just a race to the bottom, with desperate people operating at a loss, or close to it?

I don't know how Angie's List work, but the drivers are contractors hired by Uber or Lyft not you, they aren't the ones setting the price.

So how do these "independent contractors" negotiate compensation?

No, I am obviously hiring Uber. I am going to the Uber app, putting a destination, looking at the price Uber quotes me, and clicking "go". In no meaningful way am I choosing my contractor myself.

Whether Uber chooses to structure the workforce as contractors or employees is their problem, not mine.

hmm many of the freelancing sites operate the same way,

I go to acme freelance, I put in the work I want done, acme freelance sends me quotes and profiles for people willing to do the work, I click go..

I guess in that instance i am not hiring a "contractor" either I am hiring acme freelance.. good to know

To the rest of the world when I have my software developed by a contractor I found on Acme Freelance I did infact hire a contractor, but I guess because this is driving it is some how different? Or because the rates are more standardized?

I am trying to figure out why you believe uber is different from the 100's of other freelance websites? or maybe you dont and you believe all of the people selling services on all of those sites should also be Employee's of the sites?

> acme freelance sends me quotes and profiles for people willing to do the work

This is the step that doesn't happen with Uber.

> This is no different than going to Angie's List to find a Contractor to fix your broken pipe

If I find a contractor I like, I can keep working with them. How do I do that with Uber?

Not sure why this is comment is being downvoted. This is literally the point Uber is trying to make. They are a platform to connect drivers with passengers.

Too many people want to believe in the Myth that Uber is this evil company stealing all the money from the Drivers..

Most of them are Uber Customers that believe that if Uber makes the drivers employee's the drivers would be treated fairly, well compensated, and they will still get Cheap rides

Of course this is all a delusion, because as always "Price, quality, or service: Pick 2"

They believe they can "have it all" but reality does not work that way

Cool, how do I offer an Uber driver more money in exchange for better quality/service? It's a platform, right? Where's the button for that?

The Uber Black button is right there in the app.

No, I'm already taking Uber Black. I'd like to offer them more money in exchange for better service. How do I do that?

Or are you saying all Uber Black drivers are exactly the same quality and provide exactly the same service?

It's called tipping. You go ahead and pay the driver whatever the heck you want for better service, $1M, whatever. Hand cash to the driver if you want.

Great, how do I tell the driver ahead of time that I'm willing to tip more for better service? For instance, how do I communicate to drivers, I know I'm in the middle of nowhere, but you should drive over here and accept my request because I'll tip more heavily?

I mean, it's just a platform for communicating with independent drivers the way that Angie's List lets me communicate with plumbers, right? So there's definitely some box in the app which lets me send this message out, I just need to find it?

That's why I didn't contest it; I knew the driver would just get shafted by Uber, even though it wasn't his fault. I'm still mad at Uber for pulling a bait-and-switch but that's not really the point of my post. The point was that they were already doing this last year!

If a plane is detoured due to weather the crew are paid for the extra hours. Why would you assume the customers should pay more for their ticket to cover the cost?

It’s just part of the company’s cost of doing business.

Yes, but I ride only a few times and they drive thousands of times. Assuming the estimates are accurate on average, they will be fairly compensated overall, whereas I could have a very skewed result.

In that case, there should be a market for an original-Uber-like service that does comply with the law (so it will probably have to charge more, but at least you know in advance how much).

The entire market for Uber was because it cost less then Taxi's

People have this mythical believe that prices are infinitely elastic and that all uber drivers can magically make 100K a year with out causing the company to fold

That is not how any of this works, as service like you are talking about has been around for decades, they are called black car services. They employ professional drivers at reasonable wages, they DO NOT however have a mass market because the costs of those cars are $$$$$$ and only people in the Upper income levels can affords to use such a service

When Uber started (then called UberCab), they weren’t cheaper than taxis. They instead were more convenient (no trying to hail a cab, no fighting drivers over taking cards, no expectation of tip despite subpar service) and consistent. I miss those days.

If you can automate part of it with an app it could be cheaper. Maybe it won't work out cheaper than a taxi, but pretty likely cheaper than those black car services. And since there is a market for the latter, there might be enough market for something in between; I don't know how large.

So you believe the booking is the most expensive part of running a professional car service? and that by automating the booking they would cut costs significantly?

Really?

In the UK, they have already automated it. Many cab companies allow booking by app, with a _similar_ experience to Uber (though with worse service, usually).

Importantly, they charge the full meter price as set by the licensing authority, and engage in the usual cab of tactics arguing about credit cards, taking sub-optimal routes and espousing disagreeable politics for the entire trip.

This is simply incorrect. Black car services are just as unreliable as cabs in many parts of the world (and in many others, the distinction does not even exist).

So honest question ... "in response to California worker law".

- How did this law get enacted?

- Why wasn't I, a resident of California, asked to vote on it?

- Was the law buried under some legalese and just slipped past the eyes of 39 million Californians? And nobody made any noise about it?

>>>- How did this law get enacted?

the same way all other laws do, passed by the legislature and signed by the governor

>>> Why wasn't I, a resident of California, asked to vote on it?

because neither the US nor the State of California is a Direct Democracy, it is a Representative Constitutional Republic

>>> Was the law buried under some legalese and just slipped past the eyes of 39 million Californians? And nobody made any noise about it?

No there have been several thousands of News reports about it, even I as a Midwestern knew about this law months ago (I think I first heard about it mid 2019), if you did not then I would recommend you update your news sources you are in some kind of Bubble or echo chamber

> the same way all other laws do, passed by the legislature and signed by the governor

In CA, there are also a fair number of propositions that are voted on by the general public. It would be interesting if there were some sort of mechanism through which a pending law could be put on hold until after a popular vote, say, if enough voter signatures were gathered within a certain timeframe.

There is. A proposition could be filed to stop the law, get enough signatures, and then get voted on during the next election.

If what you’re asking is for an “emergency proposition” where everyone votes now, that’ll never happen.

I'm asking for something in the middle — basically pause a new law from coming into effect because enough residents have given signatures for a proposition that would invalidate it. What I think you're describing is invalidating it after it comes into effect. It would seem reasonable to have an avenue for pre-empting a very unpopular law (passed by legislators and signed by the governor) from coming into effect, given that the proposition system already gives residents a way to later overturn it.

Do you think it was necessary to be this hostile?

The poster didn't claim to be an American and even if they are American, there are lots of different opinions on what things are important to spend time on and not everyone agrees that it's following the news or reading up on various ways places structure their government.

>>the poster didn't claim to be an American

they claim to live in the state of California, and are concerned about voting so that would imply they are at minimum a Naturalized Citizen of the US...

>> there are lots of different opinions on what things are important to spend time on

True, however they are the one acting shocked about a new law being passed, if they do not believe new laws in their state is something important to spend time on, they should then not be shocked when a law passes they were no aware of.

There was a lot of noise about AB5: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Assembly_Bill_5_(20....

AB5 supposedly just clarifies what the law already said: that workers should be classified as employees except in narrow circumstances when they're clearly independent. As employees, they're entitled to minimum wage, sick leave, etc.

It's a plausible interpretation of some old laws designed for a different world, but it doesn't seem like good policy for today.

If you're US citizen residing in California, you had an option to vote for (or against) people that enacted it. If you didn't, now you learned that elections have consequences regardless of whether you participate or not. If you are, like me, an alien living in California, you can be happy that at least the weather is nice, so far they didn't find the way to mess this up too.

>Well that sucks big time. One of the main reasons I used Uber was I know what it's going to cost me, upfront, no matter what, I just click

And I can't care less about this change, when estimate was for £5-£7 but actual price was £8.80. Estimate never worked for me, only once in several trips in last 2 years actual price was in range of the estimates.

The change makes Uber work in California how it already worked in the UK. As in, the way youre complaining about.

Surely by now they can upgrade their estimate algorithm, given how many trips they can analyse.

This isn't how Uber, or indeed any competently-written service, works. I'd be beyond shocked if there was some hard-coded algorithm for estimating fares that they do one-off manual upgrades on. It's far more likely that they have a statistical method for doing so, that's constantly doing the equivalent of the "upgrade" you're describing. Such systems have nonzero error.