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Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by dangoor on Sunday December 29, 2019 @09:44AM (#21906087)
As an indie author, I've paid more attention to what's going on in publishing than the average person over the last few years. This article has some things I could quibble with, but the overall premise is, I think, true. Publishers don't like the ebook market, and my guess is that it's because of how little control they have over it.

In the world of ebooks, indies actually have the upper hand. For one, we don't have the overhead of big publishers, so we can sell ebooks at more reasonable prices (while pocketing more than authors with traditional contracts). We have the ability to move more quickly and thus take advantage of new features (like Amazon's ad platform) earlier. We can sell worldwide with a click, instead of negotiating messy contracts.

With print on demand, we can also have our books in print. But publishers definitely have the upper hand there and, I presume, always will.

Also, as an indie I have the option to make my books available DRM-free.

Personally, I _like_ ebooks, especially for fiction. They weigh nothing. They have search. My highlights can get aggregated together. I can switch devices and even switch between ebook and audiobook. Further, I think there are very few print books that actually have real resale value, so that's not a big factor for me.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by est31 on Sunday December 29, 2019 @10:55AM (#21906488)
> I think there are very few print books that actually have real resale value, so that's not a big factor for me.

Actually, I believe that used ebooks can sell for almost the same price as "new" ones. Unlike with physical books, there is literally no difference in reading experience between an ebook that has been sold a hundred times and an ebook that's new.

However, as someone who reads books and who would appreciate a right for resale for ebooks, I don't appreciate it for being able to make money from reselling it. I am more interested about the effects: that I have actual ownership over the ebook. That the place which sold me the ebook going bankrupt doesn't disrupt my abilities to read it. That I can lend it to a friend. etc.

Now, if you allowed resale, ebooks would have close to "new" resale values, and more importantly, resale values of ebooks which have been sold three or four times would stay the same. This would create the problem that people could buy an used ebook, read it, and then resell it afterwards for the same price, basically reading the ebook for free. Now libraries are doing something similar with physical books, but they are inconvenient to use. You need to get to the library, stand in queue, handle the books, think about bringing them back in time, etc. But ebooks don't have such limitations and you could build a super convenient solution around ebook lending. While it's great that people read books, it's sadly not really good for publishers or authors. I kinda understand them that they want to close this loophole. Still, you could allow for resale in some different fashion. E.g. a resale tax of 10% of the value or something. In my opinion that would be the optimum, and a solution that's fair to everyone.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by everdev on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:16AM (#21906612)
> This would create the problem that people could buy an used ebook, read it, and then resell it afterwards for the same price, basically reading the ebook for free.

If the author still got a cut of the resale price, this might actually increase sales.

There are tons of books I'd like to read but I felt were out of my monthly book budget.

If I could recoup a good portion of my costs I'd buy more books.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by JadeNB on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:30AM (#21906720)
> If the author still got a cut of the resale price, this might actually increase sales.

Historically, this idea hasn’t gone over well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine .

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by emodendroket on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:09AM (#21906572)
But is it necessary for ebooks to succeed? You can't resell a digital movie, video game, or song you bought either.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by mastax on Sunday December 29, 2019 @12:32PM (#21907142)
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by ethbro on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:29AM (#21906707)
It'd be interesting to have a resale tax for used goods, on top of any negotiated price, that followed royalty payments for a new digital good.

As is, we're essentially artificially creating disposable goods, for the primary purpose of enriching distributors at a cost to consumers.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by snuxoll on Sunday December 29, 2019 @01:00PM (#21907318)
I think restoring copyright to sane periods is a better solution, resale of digital goods requires online DRM systems to continue functioning indefinitely and we’ve seen the issues that causes.

I would be less annoyed by essentially consumable digital goods if I knew sometime down the road they would enter the public domain in a reasonable timeframe, and not well after the eventual death of the current generation of children.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by jjeaff on Sunday December 29, 2019 @07:48PM (#21909820)
I shudder to say this, but that might actually be a use case for blockchain. A shared distributed ledger that an ebook reader consults before opening an ebook.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by est31 on Sunday December 29, 2019 @09:25PM (#21910270)
Yeah the "don't let people sell used books twice" problem maps pretty well to the "prevent double spend" problem that blockchains (try to) solve.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by incompleteness on Sunday December 29, 2019 @12:12PM (#21907009)
Archive.org already has lending queues for ebooks!

I sincerely hope I haven't made you feel the way I felt when my gramdmother told me I had, in fact, not invented scrambled eggs.

IMO if buying ebooks were super easy many people would do it, I know Steam and the PS Store had that effect on me.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by ghaff on Sunday December 29, 2019 @12:45PM (#21907237)
Years ago, Tim O'Reilly made the observation that time was really the limiting factor in how many books people read (or something along those lines). That's certainly the case with me. Spending (typically) $10 for a book that will take me 8 hours or more to read is a great value for my time--and that's not even counting libraries or out of copyright works--and I'm not sure how acquiring most books could be much easier than it is.

Books could be universally free and maybe I'd browse a bit more but I wouldn't really read more.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by dwighttk on Sunday December 29, 2019 @04:42PM (#21908714)
That may be specifically true for you and Tim O’Reilly (and even billions of other people) but it isn’t generally true
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by gbear605 on Sunday December 29, 2019 @02:51PM (#21908024)
I think it depends on the situation. I read a lot more (for myself, not for classes) in college when I had access for free to all those books. The cost of books impedes humans. Luckily there are libraries all over, but they’re not nearly as extensive.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by BenjiWiebe on Sunday December 29, 2019 @04:53PM (#21908801)
In my case, I have a fair bit of time for reading, and I read very quickly. I am forever waiting in a queue for ebooks via my library, and a lot of the books I'd like to read aren't available that way. If I were to buy all the books I read, I'd be broke.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by macjohnmcc on Sunday December 29, 2019 @12:44PM (#21907227)
I thought for sure you were the inventor of the scrabbled egg.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by eyeball on Sunday December 29, 2019 @12:01PM (#21906945)
>you could build a super convenient solution around ebook lending

my library lends ebooks using an app, works great

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by hylaride on Sunday December 29, 2019 @12:34PM (#21907161)
Libby/Overdrive? It’s great, except for the 12 weeks I’m waiting for most of the books I want, then they become available during time that I don’t have to read.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by pugio on Sunday December 29, 2019 @07:02PM (#21909577)
I've started collecting libraries (cards) from each place I live. Libraries will often have more than one digital service (Overdrive, Hoopla, Borrowbox), and each library may have sharing agreements with neighboring systems.

I use the Chrome Instant Multi Search extension to search all the libraries+services – about 12 different sites at this point. Between them they have almost every book I want in e-book or audiobook, and by placing holds I can keep a steady queue of books going. Managed 125 books this year that way, the majority of them digital, and free.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by easymodex on Sunday December 29, 2019 @05:51PM (#21909168)
What? So for borrowing e-books you also have to take turns reading it? This is just insane.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by fancyfish on Sunday December 29, 2019 @07:43PM (#21909800)
Yes, it is like a physical book where the library has a given number of books to lend at any time, and you get to borrow it for a specified time window. Likewise for audiobooks and videos. You have to use the Overdrive app (US users can also use Kindle for e-books). It is insane and exactly what I've come to expect here in the US.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by kippinitreal on Sunday December 29, 2019 @04:47PM (#21908759)
The trick (at least on a kindle) is that a book loan doesn’t get marked as closed until you go to the homescreen. Just have to be very careful to avoid that button!
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by hylaride on Monday December 30, 2019 @08:40AM (#21913239)
I wish kindle library integration was available in Canada, but alas.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by admax88q on Sunday December 29, 2019 @02:35PM (#21907934)
The whole concept of "used ebooks". Just sounds wrong.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by criddell on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:23AM (#21906667)
> Also, as an indie I have the option to make my books available DRM-free.

It's worth pointing out that at least one big publisher doesn't use DRM: Tor.

Frankly, I don't get why the big publishers insist on DRM. All it really does is cement Amazon's dominance. Sell DRM-free formats and you aren't helping Amazon lock customers in to the Kindle ecosystem.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by ddingus on Sunday December 29, 2019 @03:00PM (#21908067)
I love Tor. Appreciate the DRM free books, and have read them on lots of devices.

I keep very good books. Will re read sometimes. Reasons aren't important, just that a reread makes sense. Maybe the best reason is looking at a great story in a new light, different times.

Anyway, DRM free ebooks means I can keep them like my physical books and in a decade, read them again just like my physical books.

Love it. I gladly buy and pay full list. I want them to make their money because they are delivering great value.

I pretty much do not use Kindle. I prefer plain text, PDF, or an easily displayed and or converted pub, etc.

Bonus, I just dont need a kindle, or Amazon, or anything. If it can render text, or a PDF, reading happens just fine.

Just for fun, I have read some great fiction on my Apple Platinum. Honestly, it is kind of a cool experience. That task is a heavy lift for the machine, but it does it. The fonts, display, etc. take me to a different time. Fun. Frivolous.

Just as frivolous as say, reading on a beach, or something.

Tor is on a good path here.

All that said, I buy both ebook and print.

Also, samples. These are great. One can read enough to see if the book makes sense. Same as print, sans just being able to pick a section.

If they kill ebooks, I will buy fewer books. Both formats have their sweet spots.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by criddell on Sunday December 29, 2019 @04:45PM (#21908735)
> If they kill ebooks, I will buy fewer books. Both formats have their sweet spots.

That's a great point. If ebooks were killed , then I would simply be buying fewer books. I enjoy both formats, but I do end up reading the most on an e-ink Kindle.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by ddingus on Sunday December 29, 2019 @05:04PM (#21908874)
When I travel, I lean ebook. Otherwise physical.

Right now, 70 / 30 ebook here too.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by dwighttk on Sunday December 29, 2019 @04:44PM (#21908731)
What is an Apple Platinum?
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by ddingus on Sunday December 29, 2019 @05:07PM (#21908896)
Typo: Apple 2e Platinum

8 bit 6502 Apple computer, 128kb RAM, 1mhz.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by dwighttk on Monday December 30, 2019 @06:16PM (#21917574)
][e if I remember correctly.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by ddingus on Tuesday December 31, 2019 @05:12PM (#21925130)
You do, and it is also //e

I did the ebook for fun. Had a space opera that I was chipping away at. The experience was nice. Just fire it up, settle in, read.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by pkaye on Sunday December 29, 2019 @06:19PM (#21909338)
A lot of tech book publishers don't use DRM when bought on their website. Informit, Peachpit, Apress, Packt. O'reilly also didn't when they used to sell it directly.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by stakhanov on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:13AM (#21906593)
I'm surprised that you're giving it a positive spin from the "indie author" perspective, or maybe I'm just missing something about the way you do your marketing & distribution.

If you want your ebook on Amazon, then Amazon will take 70% (The 30% might be available to you if you plan on retailing at a low price and in mainstream markets, but an indie author serving niche topics will often want to set a higher price; Also you can't do public domain content on the 30% option).

70% commission strikes me as being extremely high. Compare that to bandcamp, which takes 15% for being an extremely well-known platform for indie music.

Competitors who try to eat at least a little of Amazon's lunch (like Rakuten's Kobo, or national book chains like Barnes & Noble's Nook in the U.S., Thalia's Tolino in Germany etc) are following Amazon on pricing. Only outsiders like Google & Apple offer better deals, but those platforms aren't all that interesting for e-books.

Of course you can try to sell e-books by offering downloads from your own store, but you'll have to work a lot harder and spend more on marketing, plus I'm not sure that, outside of specialist techie audiences, people would be willing to endure the friction around downloading an EPUB, connecting an ebook reader via USB, transferring the file etc.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by paulsutter on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:15AM (#21906610)
Whoever owns the customer relationship will take the lion’s share of profit, true in books as in everything. Amazon takes 70% because people are willing to share 70% to get distribution, because Amazon is where anyone searches for books.

It raises interesting questions about the definition of monopoly. Especially as Google gradually fades the distinction between ads and results and starts to take over categories like travel.

(not proposing anything, just making an observation)

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by stakhanov on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:18AM (#21906626)
That is certainly not true of everything. Ask a car dealer how much commission/margin they get.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by Transfinity on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:33AM (#21906742)
I would argue that reinforces the point. Car customers don't really have a relationship with a dealership until they're far into the process of selecting and buying a car. Even then the dealership doesn't own the relationship, there's lots of competition and the customer can play dealers against each other.

OTOH, a customer certainly has a relationship with the car manufacturer, through advertising and mental image.

When you shop for a car you choose the make and model first, then find a dealership that will sell it to you. If you get your media from Amazon, you go to Amazon to see what they have and choose from that. Amazon controls the relationship in a way the dealer does not.

IIRC, this is basically why car dealerships exist and you can't just order a car out of a catalog.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by ethbro on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:33AM (#21906743)
It's probably more accurate to say 'Whoever owns the numerically limited chokepoint will take the lion’s share of profit.'

There are many car dealerships. There are only a few car manufacturers. So the latter have forced the former into a bad deal.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by ghaff on Sunday December 29, 2019 @12:12PM (#21907012)
I'm not sure it's a bad deal. New car dealership owners are often pretty successful and politically connected small local businessmen. It is generally true though that distribution isn't a business that the auto manufacturers wanted to be in at the time the current system developed. It's not a wildly profitable business to be in but, like other types of franchises, it's a decent enough living for many of the owners.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by pkAbstract on Sunday December 29, 2019 @01:16PM (#21907405)
It's not that they didn't want to be in the business, but that manufacturers couldn't scale their own dealerships across the country fast enough. So they opened up ownership to third parties.

Tesla, however, was in the unique position of having enough capital to open their own dealerships, which has caused a lot of friction with more traditional, "family-owned" dealerships.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by soapboxrocket on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:40PM (#21910855)
There are a lot of laws surrounding the selling of cars and dealerships, ask Elon.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by michaelt on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:18AM (#21906630)
70% commission might sound bad to you - but imagine an industry where the standard commission had historically been 85-90%.

Of course, historically an 90% commission on a print book would cover expenses like editing, printing, and marketing which Amazon doesn't provide; and the risk/cost of unsold copies, which ebooks don't have. Still, if you think your publisher wasn't putting much effort into the marketing anyway....

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by stakhanov on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:28AM (#21906703)
Yes, as you correctly point out, the economics behind that royalty structure became obsolete when the ebook came around. The new thing was the low unit costs. The other new thing was channel economics. The latter triumphed and gave Amazon the bargaining power they needed to make sure that none of the economic advantage of e-books would find their way into creators' pockets. That is what I'm lamenting.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by ghaff on Sunday December 29, 2019 @12:16PM (#21907043)
And discounting generally. New book sales used to be pretty much a list price operation. Publishers did a lot more gatekeeping and tended to provide more services for the authors they selected.

I've gone both the indie route and the traditional publisher route and I'm honestly not sure the publisher is worth the other tradeoffs. TBH, the biggest value of the publisher was that it still carries a certain (not entirely warranted) gravitas.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by thaumasiotes on Sunday December 29, 2019 @12:43PM (#21907226)
Editing is still valuable, judging by the writing quality of self-published books.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by ghaff on Sunday December 29, 2019 @01:01PM (#21907330)
You can hire someone to do that though--along with cover design etc. And publishers often don't do an awful lot of heavy editing in my experience.

(I'd argue that if you're doing a book by yourself without a co-author, you pretty much have to hire at least a copy editor but that's pretty inexpensive.)

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by ggm on Sunday December 29, 2019 @03:02PM (#21908077)
As the partner of a copy editor, I'm intrigued you think this is inexpensive, because she's been doing this for years for PhD and scientific papers, and the book she did took a lot longer and cost several thousand dollars at her below market rate. Admittedly it was for an english as a second language author, but my observation is that for a work of any significant length, copy editing is not cheap. For a self published book, it might exceed the revenue: you'd have to sell thousands of copies to recoup the copy edit cost.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by ghaff on Sunday December 29, 2019 @05:17PM (#21908965)
I guess I write fairly well; I'm a professional writer by most definitions. By copy editor I mean someone who mostly just fixes spelling and grammatical errors--and maybe flags stuff that doesn't make sense. When I hired a copy editor for a book, I paid a few hundred dollars to someone who had interned for a magazine editor friend of mine.

I don't doubt that even a few hundred dollars may exceed revenue for a lot of self-published works. But I'd argue that someone needs to do a careful read-through of a book. You simply don't see mistakes after a while and most friends just aren't going to do a careful enough read through for free even if they're otherwise qualified.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by ggm on Sunday December 29, 2019 @07:12PM (#21909631)
Well, I think you're right about needing a fresh pair of eyes. And, as a pro writer you probably made less mistakes than most.

You paid low-to-below market rate to an ex-intern early stage career and I compared to a 20+ year proofreader in academic for ESL. Probably fishes to bicycles. I think you got what you needed which was a light touch confidence spellchecker.

A new to writing solo author, bursting with ten years of bildungsroman, who got Scriviner and has dumped two thousand disjoint paragraphs of prose into word...

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by thaumasiotes on Sunday December 29, 2019 @05:46PM (#21909141)
> You can hire someone to do that though--along with cover design etc. And publishers often don't do an awful lot of heavy editing in my experience.

I bought and read a few self-published books on Amazon. The lesson I learned was that you should never, under any circumstances whatever, pay for a self-published book. The average quality of writing is atrocious.

Publishers may not do much direct improvement of your writing, but even if they perform a purely censorious function of printing good writing and refusing to print bad writing, they're adding a lot of value.

(And my understanding is that they do in fact work with you to improve your writing, but I have no experience in the field.)

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by grey-area on Sunday December 29, 2019 @12:46PM (#21907243)
If you think 70% commission is high, you should look into the deals authors get from publishers. Typically author gets low single digits, the shop gets around 50% and the publisher gets the rest. Sometimes the author gets only a fee, then zero commission.

30% is the norm from Amazon anyway, though I agree the terms are onerous and a world in which Amazon (or any other large corp.) dominates distribution would not be a pleasant one for authors. The nice thing above the that though is that the Internet means that monopoly on digital distribution can be broken relatively quickly by a superior solution.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by syshum on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:19AM (#21906636)
>>then Amazon will take 70%

You have a source on that? Everything I see and read shows amazon takes the "standard" 30% platform rate that Apple started years ago, I think 30% is way to high as well but I see nothing in any of Amazons documentation where they take 70% of revenue for selling an ebook

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by stakhanov on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:25AM (#21906677)
https://kdp.amazon.com/en_US/help/topic/G200644210

On the "70% royalty option" (=30% commission), the retail price of the ebook must not exceed $9.99

If you write a college textbook that normally retails at $80, that $9.99 will be a joke to you.

This way they keep prices down (at the author's cost), or when there is real profit opportunity on the table, take the lion's share.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by syshum on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:31AM (#21906730)
Well IMO no ebook should be more than $9.99 in the first place, and no TextBook should be $80 either

The prices of TextBook has long been insane largely because they are "required" by the professors that write them or getting kickbacks from publishers

No Free Market will support $80 textbooks

I am sure we are not going to even come close to agreeing on this topic so....

as to 35% royalty, how do that compare to a standard publishing contract from a publisher? I have a feeling that is still more than what the Traditional Publishers give their Authors

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by stakhanov on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:58AM (#21906926)
"Traditional Publishers" is a whole different game though: They will try to make money by moving huge quantities of something. So they start with something that has potential mass-appeal, like a cookbook, and then 99% of the value is a result of marketing. The publisher will have the ability to get the author on cook shows on television, will advertise it on billboards, will have the distribution power to get the book into the display window at bookstores etc etc. -- In such a case, the publisher is executing all of the strategically important functions, and the author is almost exchangeable.

Compare that to someone whose life's work is some academic area where their book has become the standard textbook. If it weren't for that person's work, there wouldn't be a product here. That person can choose between a handful of publishers, and whichever publisher they go with has a product, and the others don't have one. -- The recent backlash against Elsevier and the drive towards open journals is basically showing how different the economics are here.

But the fact is: There is a spectrum here, and the above are the two ends of the spectrum.

Amazon's model is basically encouraging the cookbook-stuff and being extremely hostile towards the latter kind of content.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by cosmodisk on Sunday December 29, 2019 @12:41PM (#21907210)
Could you share some links regarding backlash against Elsevier?
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by stakhanov on Sunday December 29, 2019 @01:03PM (#21907336)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20606718

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19273955

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6996052

As you can see they are much loved with the HN crowd ;-D

Some of the highest ranked top-level comments start like

"Man, I hate Elsevier with a passion. As well as being shady, dishonest, shifty, moneygrubbing toerags, they also [...]"

"Elsevier is really, really bad. At this point, I think they are already seeing the end and investors are trying to [...]"

"Elsevier employees should just quit and work somewhere else. It's just [...]"

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by ethbro on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:39AM (#21906783)
I have as much beef with textbook prices as anyone else, but they have their own screwy economics.

I'd be 110% in favor of mandating open source textbooks, where available, for any course taken by a student receiving government educational grants.

Essentially, you get to have (a) high textbook costs, or (b) monopolies over categories (e.g. one single mathematics textbook publisher).

Legacy / static topics (intro linear algebra) and evolving topics (intro biology) also have very different economic models.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by stakhanov on Sunday December 29, 2019 @12:12PM (#21907011)
My own opinion is that I don't have a problem with a textbook costing around $80. I started buying college textbooks even before I was in college, and I still do now, 10 years after graduating, often even for topics that are quite remote to my actual profession.

When I was into sailing, I bought meteorology textbooks, because I reckon "What the heck, I pay $100 for a weekend on the water. For an extra $60 I might as well be able to read the skies and the synoptic charts for added pleasure." I recently bought the standard textbook on equine hoofcare, because a visit by the farrier costs $200 a pop, happens every 6 weeks, and I reckon "What the heck. For an extra $100, I want to be able to tell the difference between a good farrier and a bad farrier."

I think college textbooks provide extremely good value for money. Working though one attentively, including doing exercises and checking the answers etc is pretty much as good value as actually doing the course at university (if it's a theoretical subject; obviously you can't learn surgery that way). This is also reflected in the way that they are now routinely being up-sold from mere books into online courses. The market for online courses hasn't quite equilibriated yet. But it's not uncommon for authors of textbooks to recycle the book into a slideset, play the slides on video at the same time as reading the book into the audio track. Throw in a meaningless certificate, and, bang, your $100 textbook is now a $1000 online course. People pay it because, often times, it's actually still worth it. (Although I prefer the bang-per-buck ratio of textbooks to online courses).

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by barry-cotter on Sunday December 29, 2019 @04:15PM (#21908539)
> But it's not uncommon for authors of textbooks to recycle the book into a slideset, play the slides on video at the same time as reading the book into the audio track.

Examples? What you’re describing does not jibe with my experience doing MOOCs. Even the better ones cover a lot less ground than a textbook on the same topic, for the same reason a lecture course does.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by michaelt on Sunday December 29, 2019 @04:07PM (#21908485)
The weird thing about textbook pricing is, to listen to debates on the internet, textbooks simultaneously cost $$ AND don't make the author any money AND the main market is people who've already paid $$$$ for an in-person college course.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by lolinder on Sunday December 29, 2019 @01:32PM (#21907515)
The funny thing is that my experience has been that the static topics are just as bad or worse for students.

For my Newtonian Physics class, the textbook we were using was on its 14th edition and cost more than $100 new. I was fortunate that my professor asked us to use the 13th at the latest, and gave the mappings to the 12th edition problems (because the only difference between 12th and 13th was which order the problems were in). This for a subject that's been essentially the same for centuries.

Meanwhile my Computer Science classes all had $40 textbooks that were in at most the 2nd edition.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by ethbro on Sunday December 29, 2019 @06:06PM (#21909268)
This is the one thing that should be made out and out illegal -- version churning without a fundamental reason.

Inclusive of: (1) altering problem sets or numbering, (2) reordering chapters, (3) organizing chapters.

Where if any of the above are done, a free mapping must be available on the internet.

I presume there are actual university guidelines prohibiting using older editions (i.e. ones the official college bookstore couldn't buy in bulk), but most professors just didn't seem to care (in between everything else they were juggling).

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by galangalalgol on Sunday December 29, 2019 @04:54PM (#21908809)
How is author compensation for library ebook rentals like overdrive, or subscriptions like kindle unlimited?
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by pojntfx on Sunday December 29, 2019 @10:58AM (#21906505)
YES! The DRM-free books are amazing. It feels so good to finally be able to _own_ a book and be sure of being able to read it for long into the future.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by emodendroket on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:06AM (#21906551)
It's hard to give away print books, let alone resell them.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by markbnj on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:56AM (#21906914)
This is true, for all but a minority of titles and editions imo. I have probably a couple of hundred hardcover and paperback and most of them nobody really wants. Collectively they are also quite heavy and difficult to transport from place to place. We haven't moved in a number of years but the last time we did my crates of books made up a significant portion of the total load weight. In the end I will probably sell a very few volumes that have a little value, give away a few more, and dispose of the rest.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by falcolas on Sunday December 29, 2019 @12:01PM (#21906943)
I’ve found this to be the case too, especially mass market paperbacks. Book resellers aren’t interested, libraries are better (but they’ll also occasionally turn them away).
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by Jamwinner on Sunday December 29, 2019 @02:28PM (#21907887)
I have not found this to be the case with anything but old tech and pulp novels.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by soapboxrocket on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:42PM (#21910867)
Setup a Little Free Library, almost everything I put in my goes.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by syshum on Sunday December 29, 2019 @12:09PM (#21906996)
hmm, I buy 1 or 2 printed books every month, and I try to buy Used when Possible, it is just cheaper
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by ghaff on Sunday December 29, 2019 @02:02PM (#21907714)
That's the buyer's perspective though. I buy used books as well although I'll often actually pay a premium for an eBook because I have the most reading time when I'm traveling.

But selling low cost goods as an occasional thing is incredibly time consuming for the return. In the past I sold on Ebay every now and then and basically came to the conclusion that unless I was making $50+ on a transaction it just wasn't worth the hassle. Books are easier in general but they also are usually a race to the bottom in terms of pricing.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by vixen99 on Sunday December 29, 2019 @12:03PM (#21906958)
If only that was true. Tell it to the Amazon subsidiary 'ABE books' and their customers who buy and sell secondhand books via booksellers worldwide.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by emodendroket on Sunday December 29, 2019 @12:30PM (#21907135)
If you're willing to keep the book in storage indefinitely and ship it anywhere in the world that improves your odds. If you just want the library to take your old books you might have worse luck.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by ghaff on Sunday December 29, 2019 @01:07PM (#21907351)
My local library has a book sale every year. I don't give them trash like outdated software manuals but I take them some bags of books over the course of a year to at least offset any new books I bring in. I'm sure a lot of them end up getting pulped anyway but at least I've tried to give them new homes. No way I'm going to the trouble of trying to sell books (or anything else for a few dollars) at a sub-minimum wage value of my time.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by lokl on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:14AM (#21906603)
"Publishers don't like the ebook market, and my guess is that it's because of how little control they have over it."

I heard a different explanation in the early days of ebooks: that publishers were afraid ebook pricing and lack of physicality would diminish the perceived value of print books. This from a few in the print publishing industry, but I don't know how widespread it was or is.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by ghaff on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:37AM (#21906764)
>lack of physicality

There was definitely some truth in that. When eBooks were relatively new there was a widespread trope that they "should" be a lot cheaper than physical books because they didn't have all the printing/distribution/return/etc. costs associated with dead tree versions. In fact, these costs were pretty trivial (maybe $2/copy as I recall).

And pre-Amazon, in 1990s dollars, B&N 25% discounts on bestsellers was a big deal when non-discounted $25 hardcovers was the norm. (Mainstream eBooks came a bit later of course but the basic point that the cost of providing a physical book was a lot less of the cover price than most people assumed it was.)

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by mcguire on Sunday December 29, 2019 @01:44PM (#21907586)
"...because they didn't have all the printing/distribution/return/etc. costs associated with dead tree versions. In fact, these costs were pretty trivial (maybe $2/copy as I recall)."

The weird part about that is that, back in the 80s-90s, book prices took a big hike and the publishers blamed paper prices.

Their reasoning is amazingly flexible.

Also note that all of the non-printing, etc., costs are one time affairs. Except for the distribution channels, which take ~50% of the cover price (and which don't apply to e-books).

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by catalogia on Sunday December 29, 2019 @04:05PM (#21908471)
Ebooks are also more accessible than print books. Text-to-speech and the ability to change font size mean ebooks are accessible to people with vision disabilities, and many people with learning or attention disabilities find text-to-speech helpful as well.

Braille and large print books exist, but only sometimes will you find the book you want in those formats. And those traditional accessible formats aren't nearly as flexible as an ebook. Depending on the individual, a particular level of contrast, certain colors, or font may make a big difference, particularly for people who are legally blind but still have some limited sight. There is little chance of finding a print book with precisely the right formatting for you, but with ebooks the problem evaporates.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by germinalphrase on Sunday December 29, 2019 @10:16AM (#21906264)
Are there any platforms you find more effective than others for sales/building an audience?
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by KloudTrader on Sunday December 29, 2019 @01:46PM (#21907613)
If you want to build audiobooks on a budget, give us a try:

https://auditus.cc

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by thaumasiotes on Sunday December 29, 2019 @07:08PM (#21909606)
> Personally, I _like_ ebooks, especially for fiction. They weigh nothing. They have search.

They are easy to ship overseas.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by yarrel on Sunday December 29, 2019 @06:21PM (#21909350)
Thank you for making your books DRM-free!
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by chiefalchemist on Sunday December 29, 2019 @10:56AM (#21906497)
> "Publishers don't like the ebook market, and my guess is that it's because of how little control they have over it."

My interpretation is slightly different. They don't line it because of the commitment it creates.

1) From a legal perspective, it's only a matter of time before someone says, "You sold me this book. What do you mean I can't access it any more? I want my money back." What call action lawyer wouldn't love that opportunity?

2) The upfront cost of the ebook might be cheaper, but again, there's the ongoing infrastructure, etc. Those costs over time add up. Vs print the book once and be done with it.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by mcguire on Sunday December 29, 2019 @02:32PM (#21907916)
I think you may be confusing the e-book reader (which may well have infrastructure behind it) and the e-book itself. The latter is just a file and, modulo DRM, doesn't carry any more legal or infrastructure costs than a physical book.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by chiefalchemist on Sunday December 29, 2019 @05:28PM (#21909026)
So there's no accounting involved with dealing with Anazon? No internal systems to manage digital assets? Etc.?

Those ebooks don't create and maintain themselves. Print is finite. Digital is forever.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by emodendroket on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:12AM (#21906586)
What infrastructure? A third party is managing the sales and downloads.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by chiefalchemist on Sunday December 29, 2019 @05:31PM (#21909058)
And those asserts come from where? And you simply trust the payments Amazon sends? Just because someone else is handling the transaction doesn't mean you have nothing to do otherwise.

As mentioned above: Books are finite. Ebooks are forever.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by Rychard on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:16AM (#21906614)
> What infrastructure? A third party is managing the sales and downloads.

Somebody is paying to run that.

It's reasonable to assume that they'll stop paying the second it stops making money for them.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by emodendroket on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:18AM (#21906618)
Do any of us anticipate that Amazon is going to leave the digital book business anytime soon? It's about as theoretical as saying you shouldn't use EC2 because Amazon might get out of the cloud services business.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by cameronbrown on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:44AM (#21906818)
It shouldn't be all on Amazon/one-company. The whole industry needs to be responsible.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by emodendroket on Sunday December 29, 2019 @11:48AM (#21906860)
There's Apple, B&N, Kobo, and other also-rans but let's not kid ourselves.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by mailslot on Sunday December 29, 2019 @01:55PM (#21907671)
A slightly different, yet more relevant example: digital music.

Microsoft had their “plays for sure” DRM. No one thought Microsoft would get out of the music game. They did. “Plays for sure” no longer works. Does not play.

Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by emodendroket on Sunday December 29, 2019 @04:43PM (#21908724)
Did Microsoft at some point absolutely dominate the music market? No.
Re:Publishers Determined to Kill E-Books by naniwaduni on Sunday December 29, 2019 @04:22PM (#21908588)
The key word here is "DRM".