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Re:Ram Dass has died by krn on Monday December 23, 2019 @06:07AM (#21862891)
"When you go out into the woods, and you look at trees, you see all these different trees. And some of them are bent, and some of them are straight, and some of them are evergreens, and some of them are whatever. And you look at the tree and you allow it. You see why it is the way it is. You sort of understand that it didn’t get enough light, and so it turned that way. And you don’t get all emotional about it. You just allow it. You appreciate the tree.

The minute you get near humans, you lose all that. And you are constantly saying ‘You are too this, or I’m too this.’ That judgment mind comes in. And so I practice turning people into trees. Which means appreciating them just the way they are."

– Ram Dass

Re:Ram Dass has died by mmcgaha on Monday December 23, 2019 @10:29AM (#21864175)
I get the concept of appreciating people for what they are, but I don't know what to do with this knowledge. Maybe I can apply it to an eccentric neighbor, but how would I apply it to an unproductive employee, lying partner, or self-destructive friend.

Thinking more about this, the forest is like a busy sidewalk full of people, but the people in our lives are more like the beautiful tree in the back yard that we take care of.

Re:Ram Dass has died by crazygringo on Monday December 23, 2019 @10:43AM (#21864285)
In practice, you deal with the unproductive employee, lying partner, etc. the same way you always have. You still need to protect your own interests and not let people take advantage of you.

But it means you don't let it affect you emotionally in the same way. While most people have a kind of internal monologue that goes "why are these people so bad, why is the world wronging me, I didn't do anything to deserve this, why does life suck so bad sometimes, it's all these people's fault" you instead learn to just accept that the world has these people and not to waste emotional angst on them. You deal with them as necessary and then move on internally without anger, hatred, etc.

Re:Ram Dass has died by tonystubblebine on Monday December 23, 2019 @12:25PM (#21865195)
I used to lose my shit at underpeforming co-workers all the time and then a more experienced guy pulled me aside and gave me a quote that was intended to do the same thing as Ram Dass's tree quote:

"Nobody comes to work to do a bad job."

What I realized that judging other people narrowed my vision so that I couldn't see any options. All I could see was that they were bad people who were going to hurt the project.

When I could hold off on personalizing other people's performance then I could start to spot other reasons and sometimes even figure out constructive solutions. Maybe the other person is not delivering the code I need because they were given competing priorities.

So, yeah, as you say, you still have to deal with these situations. I just found that I could see many more options for how to deal once I stopped being so judgmental.

Re:Ram Dass has died by DataWorker on Monday December 23, 2019 @12:31PM (#21865255)
If a man is crossing a river And an empty boat collides with his own skiff, Even though he be a bad-tempered man He will not become very angry. But if he sees a man in the boat, He will shout at him to steer clear. If the shout is not heard, he will shout again, And yet again, and begin cursing. And all because there is somebody in the boat. Yet if the boat were empty. He would not be shouting, and not angry.

If you can empty your own boat Crossing the river of the world, No one will oppose you, No one will seek to harm you.

Re:Ram Dass has died by Jamwinner on Monday December 23, 2019 @02:06PM (#21866239)
If you think someone would hold their tounge because their car got hot by an empty one, i got some youtube compilations to enlighten you.
Re:Ram Dass has died by mistermann on Monday December 23, 2019 @01:21PM (#21865733)
> In practice, you deal with the unproductive employee, lying partner, etc. the same way you always have.

This is one option, but not the only one.

"When you go out into the office, and you look at the landscape, you see all these different employees. And some of them are highly productive and collaborative, and some of them are less so, and some of them are positive high-achievers, and some of them are whatever. And you look at each employee and you allow it. You see [or try to see] why it is the way it is. You sort of understand that they didn’t get enough love or understanding, and so they turned that way. And you don’t get all emotional about it. You just allow it. You appreciate the person."

"The minute you get near humans, you lose all that. And you are constantly saying ‘You are too this, or I’m too this.’ That judgment mind comes in. And so I practice turning people into trees. Which means appreciating them just the way they are."

I think what Ram is getting at in the last paragraph is something along the lines that, while we can engage with nature in an unassuming, open-minded way, doing the same with other humans is extremely difficult. Due to our lack of control over our own minds, they get up to all sorts of mischief, jumping to unfounded and epistemically unsound conclusions, feeding our conscience minds with a representation of the world that is largely a hallucination.

One way of dealing with this in the case of a problem employee, is to talk to them. Easier said than done though of course, because that process is subject to the very same problem, and others.

Re:Ram Dass has died by teddyh on Monday December 23, 2019 @03:18PM (#21866967)
> In practice, you deal with the unproductive employee, lying partner, etc. the same way you always have.

> But it means you don't let it affect you emotionally in the same way.

“When the great doctor D. T. Suzuki was asked what is it like to be enlightened he said, ‘It’s just like ordinary everyday experience, except about two inches off the ground.’”

— Alan Watts

Re:Ram Dass has died by np_tedious on Monday December 23, 2019 @10:08PM (#21869532)
Spot on! You shouldn't go to bed upset with that lazy/bullshitting coworker, yet you keep your healthy skepticism and protect yourself. And while you aren't "mad" at it, you don't pitch your tent beneath that dying, leaning tree with the exposed roots.
Re:Ram Dass has died by cainxinth on Monday December 23, 2019 @10:42AM (#21864279)
I think that quote is describing the fundamental attribution error: "the tendency for people to under-emphasize situational explanations for an individual's observed behavior while over-emphasizing dispositional and personality-based explanations."

When you see someone cut you off in traffic, you might instantly assume they are just a born jerk that doesn't care about others, but maybe they are rushing to the hospital.

Re:Ram Dass has died by everdev on Monday December 23, 2019 @11:30AM (#21864718)
Many spiritual gurus don't get married, have kids, run companies or live in violent areas. These are some of the most challenging (and potentially rewarding) social structures we have. They test you in deeper, more unexpected ways.

While "appreciating what is" is a great general rule, like any world-view it can be limiting.

I can imagine it's much easier to follow these concepts when you're safely surrounded by admirers. It's probably much harder to walk into a hostile / life-threatening situation and "appreciate what is".

Re:Ram Dass has died by mikestew on Monday December 23, 2019 @03:07PM (#21866856)
I can imagine it's much easier to follow these concepts when you're safely surrounded by admirers.

I can imagine that Vietnamese Buddhist monks of the 60s would share your sentiments. But they, too, could only imagine how much easier it might be. Well, I guess they didn't have to imagine very hard, as it was a lot easier just a few years back. (As background just in case, puppet pro-Catholic government was installed in Vietnam, and the national religion of Buddhism was effectively outlawed, leading at least one monk to set himself on fire in protest.)

I appreciate what you're driving at, I really do as I sit here on my couch in my warm house in one of the most wealthy U. S. suburbs in the country. Easy to do White Guy Suburban Buddhism in that environment. But just because many have it easy doesn't mean it's useless when times are hard.

Re:Ram Dass has died by qazpot on Monday December 23, 2019 @11:41AM (#21864822)
> I can imagine it's much easier to follow these concepts when you're safely surrounded by admirers. It's probably much harder to walk into a hostile / life-threatening situation and "appreciate what is".

Except a handful of spiritual gurus who get famous, a overwhelming majority is not surrounded by admirers.

Re:Ram Dass has died by adamsea on Monday December 23, 2019 @10:48AM (#21864330)
Just 'cause you appreciate a tree doesn't mean you're going to stand by it if it's about to fall on you.
Re:Ram Dass has died by nerdponx on Monday December 23, 2019 @10:37AM (#21864234)
If a tree is harmful (poison?) or dangerous (about to fall and crush you?) you either cut it down or stay away from it and warn others to stay away from it.
Re:Ram Dass has died by gbuk2013 on Monday December 23, 2019 @02:00PM (#21866158)
You see them for what they are, without emotions and judgement and you do what is right.

In your mind, sincerely wish them well. Even if you can do nothing else for them it's OK - you are already doing good in the world.

Most people, when they look at life see it through a haze of memories of the past and worries of the future. To be able to see things as they are is the aim of spiritual practice.

Re:Ram Dass has died by cambalache on Monday December 23, 2019 @01:51PM (#21866050)
The same way you dont hang a hammock in a tree with a feeble trunk or dont sleep below a tree infested with poisonous insects.
Re:Ram Dass has died by jonnycomputer on Monday December 23, 2019 @01:00PM (#21865517)
Have you ever tended a garden? practical garden experience makes the answer pretty clear. You don't get angry at the rose bush for not having the roses you desired. You fix the problem, or get rid of the rose bush, or just let it be.
Re:Ram Dass has died by petrogradphilos on Monday December 23, 2019 @09:22AM (#21863718)
It’s correct to regard trees, but not people, as products of their environment. Trees don’t make choices. People do.
Re:Ram Dass has died by blinkingled on Monday December 23, 2019 @09:33AM (#21863779)
People's choices also are in some way a product of their environment (heritage, parents, neighborhood and so on) and their suchness/nature, both of which they can't do much about - aren't they? Besides, judging them is hardly useful - they're what they are and society has already got the consequences part covered so what's judgment adding here?
Re:Ram Dass has died by kgwxd on Monday December 23, 2019 @10:29AM (#21864181)
Isn't expecting society to take care of the consequences part just delegating judgment?
Re:Ram Dass has died by blinkingled on Monday December 23, 2019 @10:45AM (#21864305)
Idle mental judgement vs formal societal one with physical consequences.
Re:Ram Dass has died by MiracleUser on Monday December 23, 2019 @01:41PM (#21865933)
but we only have formal societal judgements because we people made idle judgements and then talked about them with each other and formalized it - no?
Re:Ram Dass has died by blinkingled on Monday December 23, 2019 @02:47PM (#21866660)
Do we need to keep making personal judgements to keep the social ones going? Was it really a bunch of people idly judging that really lead to the formal ones to be defined?

IOW sure if objective judgement is needed towards some utility - making formal/societal ones - do it. The point like with every 'don't' is not to say don't judge no matter - point is don't generally judge unless it is fair/useful/targeted towards general betterment.

Re:Ram Dass has died by MiracleUser on Monday December 23, 2019 @03:07PM (#21866860)
I think there is inherent value to openly judging people, and there is nothing inherently wrong with having and expressing "negative" emotion. IMO where we are actually failing as a society is in our acceptance of /being judged/. And I do not mean acceptance in the way where you must feel positive about it - my point is exactly the opposite; openly judge them right back. If two people judge each other harshly and also are accepting of each other then they may still carry on with seizing opportunities to help each other rather than creating distance and trying to forget each other exists. Over time, the confrontation is a catalyst for evolving our behavior with each other but only if we are all accepting of being judged

If I am truly honest, I think it is ironic to preach for people to not do something (like judge) as a means of supporting an acceptance of people's behaviors. I feel like there is an underlying assumption to your stance that judgement and harsh language is inherently bad. You can both accept someone the way they are and judge them for it.. and I personally believe it is /required/ to accept them the way they are in order to provide a more "objective" judgement.

edit: to answer your question, yes i believe idle judgements are the grassroots to future formalized societal rules. formalism is a well studied idea in philosophy and is ultimately a self sustaining illusion built upon informal phenomenon. In other words, you cannot create a formal system to govern subjective behavior without informal subjective behavior laying the groundwork first.

Re:Ram Dass has died by felixgallo on Monday December 23, 2019 @09:26AM (#21863737)
Then I advise you to read what you’ve posted on an obituary thread and change.
Re:Ram Dass has died by dakom on Monday December 23, 2019 @11:47AM (#21864875)
This comment should not be downvoted. We have yet to explain all the inner workings of the brain nor the exact mechanism that drives human behavior. Some future discovery will, perhaps, make our current understanding look downright stupid and primeval in retrospect.

Let's state the obvious: humans _choose_ to modify themselves and their surroundings in a way trees do not, and it offers us the ability to move away from the light if we want. Failure to recognize this apparent difference stunts any drive to investigate further and it's insulting to both humans and trees.

On a level of empathy, I get it. We need compassion for eachother and predicaments that are often not of our choosing. Fine. Let's at least say that in some ways people are like trees and in other ways they are not. Ultimately that's not a very deep insight and rings very much like the kind of thing teenagers say while stoned.

However - I mean no disrespect to Richard or Ram or however he wanted to be called. The man did incredible work toward helping his fellow humans and for this reason alone he deserves great respect. I'm sad for his loss and I hope I can do even a portion of the good he did during his life.

Re:Ram Dass has died by shamnreturns2 on Monday December 23, 2019 @09:33AM (#21863780)
Maybe the point is that most people are also products of their environment (culture, family, etc).
Re:Ram Dass has died by carapace on Monday December 23, 2019 @10:47AM (#21864329)
I've come to believe that humans are only really responsible for their behaviour when present, and then their behaviour is compassionate and kind. Most people, most of the time, are more-or-less running on automatic, like meat-robots.

In other words, if they are asleep they're blameless and if they are awake they're harmless.

I'm not claiming it's true, I'm just saying that it's helped me to be more forgiving and easy-going.

Re:Ram Dass has died by deesep on Monday December 23, 2019 @01:52PM (#21866059)
>I've come to believe that humans are only really responsible for their behavior when present.

True. Being present means you observe the heart feeling, the mind thinking and the body acting. It means you bring yourself into focus, becoming aware of your own existence, watching the motives and the results of your actions, and Studying the person you have built around yourself, inadvertence. I became less judgmental, and calmer since i began learning to 'query' and question my motives. These days I don't do it as often as I used to, but i am much less on auto-pilot.

Re:Ram Dass has died by eric_cc on Monday December 23, 2019 @04:34PM (#21867628)
> Trees don’t make choices. People do.

There are philosophies that believe otherwise.

Re:Ram Dass has died by ghevshoo on Monday December 23, 2019 @10:16AM (#21864077)
An exercise I learned from Sam Harris that finally started to convince me that free will is an illusion goes as follows:

1. Choose a movie title

2. Now do it again with your eyes closed and try to figure out precisely how you chose the movie title.

3. Keep doing it.

After a while you realize that stuff just “appears” to us. The same holds true for more than just movie titles. How exactly that process works, or why it appears like as if we have free will is an interesting subject.

Re:Ram Dass has died by pmoriarty on Monday December 23, 2019 @12:59PM (#21865505)
"I do not believe in freedom of the will. Schopenhauer's words: "Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills" accompany me in all situations throughout my life." -- Albert Einstein
Re:Ram Dass has died by basilgohar on Monday December 23, 2019 @10:32AM (#21864198)
I can agree that you are factually correct, but I disagree with the conclusion. Namely, "coming-up with something" in your head definitely looks a lot like things are appearing out of nowhere.

But we also make choices and decisions as we encounter situations. I'm not a particularly creative person, so I see my freewill expressed more in the form of the decisions and choices I make. I am fully conscious that if I do this, that is a likely outcome, good or bad. I have emotions that affect my judgment and decisions, but I also have the ability, with my own willpower, to choose to overcome those as well.

To describe this process as just thoughts appearing to me seems overly simplistic. Just because we don't understand a process in intimate detail doesn't mean we can ascribe to it sheer randomness. There are very real things happening, and we acknowledge this through other, more complex emotions like guilt, regret, sadness, and so on based on our actions that go a certain way and then with pride, happiness, and confidence when they go another way.

It seems like an overly complex system for things that just "appear" in out head. The fact that we experience these emotions as a result of choices indicates to me that we are capable of acknowledging when we've made a "right" or "wrong" choice, and sometimes it's also "complicated", like almost everything else in this world is (i.e., somewhat in between).

Re:Ram Dass has died by nemo on Monday December 23, 2019 @10:32AM (#21864195)
You really think you didn't choose to engage in and persist in that exercise? You don't think you had any choice in considering the arguments and whether to accept/reject them?

I honestly understand why determinism sounds like a compelling theory, but it's not just experience that defies it. I see no compelling reason to argue for determinism if you sincerely believe in it.

Re:Ram Dass has died by Emphere on Monday December 23, 2019 @10:53AM (#21864382)
Ok, let's go one level deeper. How do you decide which argument makes sense to you? For example, say you choose 'X' or 'Y' because of criterion 'A'. Why criterion 'A'? What makes you think that that's a suitable criterion in this situation? Repeat ad infinitum."It's obvious", you say in frustration at the end. But is it really? There's a reason we are nowhere near AGI...

Anyway, try defining free will precisely. You'll find that it's an extremely incoherent concept (within our current model of causality) . Try posting your definition and I'll be happy to poke holes in it. There's a reason that the free will vs determinism debate hasn't gone anywhere for thousands of years. Perhaps we need a new way of thinking about causality.

Re:Ram Dass has died by nemo on Monday December 23, 2019 @12:50PM (#21865414)
The fact that we use intuition in choice and not some formal rational system seems orthogonal to whether we're making choices or only experience an illusion of choice.

Legally determinism is rejected out of hand, interpersonally we assume that individuals bear responsibility for their choices, it's only in some abstruse metaphysical sense that determinism means anything, and there it's largely meaningless.

Re:Ram Dass has died by nyolfen on Monday December 23, 2019 @01:36PM (#21865884)
determinism is frequently weighed in consideration of criminal cases; eg mental illness and insanity affecting sentences
Re:Ram Dass has died by nemo on Monday December 23, 2019 @03:26PM (#21867047)
While there are qualifiers for things like mental illness, the system assumes free will by default making rare exceptions for responsibility for people in some states of mind. Whatever that is, it's not determinism.
Re:Ram Dass has died by nyolfen on Tuesday December 24, 2019 @05:31PM (#21875382)
if a person is not held responsible for the actions they carry out, what can the underlying logic be but a rejection of free will? things will get truly interesting this century as we get better at projecting probabilities based on genetics and personal data; if a man is less culpable because of predispositions, why should we even let him out? this is a fundamental tension in our justice system.
Re:Ram Dass has died by MiracleUser on Monday December 23, 2019 @01:55PM (#21866088)
Being capable of feeling like an observer to your free will does not make it any less yours in my opinion. Also everything you think of in this moment was seeded in the past by your free will.

And you can use ideological systems, like math or economics or even your impression of another person, to generate endless amounts of ideas. And for each of them you veto all other possible options in order to generate the one you do at the time you do so. Then on top of that you have the conscious power to accept or reject the idea you've generated.

Re:Ram Dass has died by carapace on Monday December 23, 2019 @10:51AM (#21864366)
In re: free will, illusion of: see "Planet Without Laughter"

> excerpted from "This Book Needs No Title: A Budget of Living Paradoxes" by Raymund Smullyan

https://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/smullyan.html

Re:Ram Dass has died by ghostbrainalpha on Monday December 23, 2019 @02:46PM (#21866654)
Ram Dass just made me feel really bad about my hobby of Tree Shaping.

https://images.app.goo.gl/J5wzRAKuMjjZ8Lsv5

Re:Ram Dass has died by eric_cc on Monday December 23, 2019 @04:36PM (#21867638)
> Tree Shaping.

Tree mutilation

Re:Ram Dass has died by frogpelt on Monday December 23, 2019 @01:57PM (#21866118)
That's neat. But trees don't cut you off in traffic or steal your packages off your porch or murder your aunt or cuss you out or talk too much or tell lies, etc. etc. etc.

They also don't make you soup, buy a birthday card, bring you flowers, hold the door for you, give you a hug, say I love you.

So, people aren't trees.

Re:Ram Dass has died by zzzeek on Monday December 23, 2019 @02:37PM (#21866552)
trees will fall on you and kill you. so just like people, trees will hurt you.

trees will recycle carbon into oxygen, provide cover from the sun and rain, and strengthen the soil. so just like people, trees will help you.

Re:Ram Dass has died by habitue on Monday December 23, 2019 @01:58PM (#21866139)
I like this quote, but it's good to remember why judgement exists. Judgement exists because it puts pressure on people to conform. You disapprove of their actions, and you let them know either explicitly, or implicitly through your behavior towards them. We all exert pressure on each other to conform to expectations. In an environment with no judgement, nobody conforms, everybody does what they want.

I'm saying something pretty banal really, everybody knows this. Ram Dass's quote here is emphasizing that you can be overly judgemental. You can be stuck in an endless rumination cycle where you stew over the failings of people around you. If you're in this mode of thinking, it's good to take a step back and think of humans like trees. But similarly, if you're constantly being taken advantage of because nobody thinks you care strongly about anything, well, maybe consider becoming more judgemental

Re:Ram Dass has died by zzzeek on Monday December 23, 2019 @02:28PM (#21866471)
> But similarly, if you're constantly being taken advantage of because nobody thinks you care strongly about anything, well, maybe consider becoming more judgemental

Being judgmental will do absolutely nothing to stop those people from taking advantage of you. only if you change your behavior can you change the situation. Looking at your situation fully and completely without fear and reactivity, that will save you. Judging all those people who are "doing this" to you, will do nothing but make you miserable. It is of course our nature to be judgmental but the work of Ramm Dass was to separate out those judgements to arrive at a state where you are truly not judging people. Has nothing to do with seeing what it is they do. an earthquake could level your town, and you see exactly what it is this earthquake did, and it was horrible. but you don't "judge" the earthquake, it just is. that's ultimately the state of all people too.

Re:Ram Dass has died by habitue on Monday December 23, 2019 @02:54PM (#21866722)
> Being judgmental will do absolutely nothing to stop those people from taking advantage of you.

You're right if we're talking about people who know you wouldn't like something and do it anyway (sociopaths / assholes). But you might be surprised how un-subtle the effect of knowing "that person will get pissed if I do this" is on changing people's behavior. Most people are reasonable, and they try to take the feelings of other people around them into account when deciding how to act. If your demeanor is always "Everything's cool, I'm taking it all in with no judgement" you can't really be surprised if people don't consider your preferences when making decisions.

Re:Ram Dass has died by zzzeek on Monday December 23, 2019 @03:03PM (#21866814)
> If your demeanor is always "Everything's cool, I'm taking it all in with no judgement"

No, you can walk away, or curse them out, or punch their lights out. These are all actions that do not imply you've "judged" them for what they do. There are multiple levels of perspective at play, but if you want to read Ramm Dass' writings with the assumption that being non-judgmental is a crock, that's pretty much how you'll come out of it. He was totally OK with that so in honor of his passing I will try today to be OK with it also.

Re:Ram Dass has died by habitue on Monday December 23, 2019 @03:20PM (#21866982)
I don't necessarily think his writings are a crock. I haven't read much of his work, but I read Paths to God and found it enjoyable. Largely, I guess I'm trying to contextualize judgement vs. non-judgement. If you're saying you can punch someone's lights out without judging them, my interpretation is that you're going through some process like this:

1. Suppress emotional judgement. (Maybe do this by re-framing their actions as something that is the way it is, like a tree or a river)

2. Evaluate the situation with a calm mind

3. Come to the conclusion that their behavior is undesireable in one way or another

4. Decide that in order to dissuade them from behaving that way in the future, you should punch them in the face.

5. Punch them in the face

I think it's probably a reasonable goal to insert a "stop and think" step before doing drastic things like punching someone in the face.

But I also think there's a non-negligible effect from using your emotions (in this case, the emption of judgement), to propel you to actually take action. I think it's very unlikely people are spurred to action by something that doesn't move them personally. There's just a bit of difference between "I'm mad about Trump. I'm definitely judging the hell out of him." and "I've come to the conclusion that Trump is a suboptimal president." I think a person in the former mindset is more likely to actually take action.

And again, I think in the context where people are too judgemental, and spend a bunch of time unproductively stewing about things, Ram Dass's advice to remove judgement is a good corrective.

Re:Ram Dass has died by stjohnswarts on Monday December 23, 2019 @02:37PM (#21866567)
This is where I feel Reason comes in. While emotions are important, facts are always more important. Judging people is good if it's to further your own self interest otherwise it's a complete waste of mental energy. "Judging others" is a fact of life and has to be done, what shouldn't be done is doing it unnecessarily, especially when other people have no affect on your life. For example judging people over sexual/religious choice reasons is most often a waste of energy and shows your own unfair biases and character failures and just a projection of lack of self-esteem.
Re:Ram Dass has died by ydb on Monday December 23, 2019 @02:48PM (#21866668)
> In an environment with no judgement, nobody conforms, everybody does what they want.

And the problem with that is, when nobody conforms, no profit can be made. A large part of Silicon Valley is predicated on people conforming (Facebook/Instagram, Twitter,WeWork, Snapchat, Amazon, Microsoft).

Judgment has been carefully bred in us, otherwise neoliberal capitalism would be unable to function and so the fat cats wouldn't be able to get their salami.

Re:Ram Dass has died by habitue on Monday December 23, 2019 @03:06PM (#21866841)
I know that "conforming" is a short-hand in literature for authoritarianism, lack of creativity, etc etc. But it gained that connotation in a context where our culture moved from a high conformity past, into a slightly lower conformity present. Much was gained when we allowed individuals more freedom.

By contrast, "no conformity" is a truly terrifying thing. Acting together towards common causes is a direct result of the ability of humans to sublimate their own personal desires to some degree and conform. Basically everything humans have accomplished is because of our ability to work together, and cooperation means not acting exactly how we'd like in every situation.

> Judgment has been carefully bred in us,

This is 100% true, but it isn't neoliberalism that bred it into us, it's that successful cultures had certain attributes that allowed them to conform, cooperate and accomplish things. This is humanity self-domesticating, not a sinister movie plot about corporations