News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by hyperman1 on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @09:10AM (#21824956)
The 3 tier architecture was a reaction to VB and RAD-like tools, where things like data validation and database I/O were coupled directly to the input component. It was common for these frameworks to not even have an object for data transfer sitting between UI and DB.

This was the timeframe where more and more manual work was automated. Hence it was a common situation where input used to be given by a human, but now comes from another application. The simplest way to do that kind of retrofit was to drive the UI from the application: The application fills in its own gui fields which triggers the validation, then simulates a click on OK.

This caused al kinds of ungodly messes. You need a gui for background processes, reliability was low, etc.. 3 tier architecture were a way to say 'never again' to this style of programming. Forcing people in to it was necessary.

But that was another time. Mindlessly applying an architecture without understanding why is of course dumb. But not applying an architecture without understanding it's pros and contras is just as dumb. It all depends on the quality of the architects in question.

Not that I want to call you dumb, of course. IT today is different from 20 years ago.

Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by specialist on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @09:54AM (#21825403)
n-tiered architectures were born during the transition from "workgroup" to "client/server". This upheaval caused an industry-wide loss of programming lore.

It wouldn't have been too bad, except the ODBC interface inadvertently led to abandoning schema-aware programming models like VB's ADO, Paradox, FoxPro, etc.

At the same time, object oriented became fashionable.

So we ended up with ORMs, ActiveRecord, and various offshoots.

Mostly because no one remembers life before client/server.

Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by pjc50 on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @10:41AM (#21825918)
I was always a bit hazy on what these terms actually meant, and what we lost. It does seem like there was a brief golden age of easy "rapid application development" tools like FoxPro where you could wire some UI fields to a database without too much trouble. Now we have people trying to do the same in the web, badly.
Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by specialist on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @12:24PM (#21827103)
I also had no idea what client/server meant (at the time). My current oversimplified distinction:

Workgroup: I/O thru file system, clients responsible for locking, concurrency, etc.

Client/Server: I/O thru DB's protocol (eg TDS), server responsible for locking, concurrency, etc.

--

As for what was lost, I spent way too long (10+ years) trying to figure that out, trying to fulfill the desire to recover the ADO (Access Data Objects) programming paradigm. I think I succeeded, more or less, and am currently reorienting my life to work on it full-time.

Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by ksec on Thursday December 19, 2019 @02:53PM (#21838548)
I used to loathe FoxPro, now I actually miss it, it was simple enough to quickly get the job done. I have always thought in the 2000s that something better, more powerful and even easier to use would come. And looking back I felt a lot of times technologies general we reinvent the wheel and nothing better actually came out of it.

FileMaker may be an alternative, but I never understood why it hasn't caught on.

And I am not even sure if there are any product similar that is good on the Web.

Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by hyperman1 on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @10:32AM (#21825833)
I assume that's the windows 3.11 era? It was a simpler time, with small non-hostile networks, less critical software, and more humans in the loop. While 'workgroup' mostly means PC/DOS to me, the mainframes of the day had a comparable story unfolding.
Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by ratww on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @11:16AM (#21826343)
Funny thing, I remember lot of similar apps in enterprise businesses until the late 2000s. That only started to change when web apps and cloud-hosted software became the norm.
Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by aprdm on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @10:00AM (#21825484)
Can you talk more about workgroup?
Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by ratww on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @11:27AM (#21826470)
Not the GP, but I used to work in desktop development for enterprise businesses.

Most multi-user apps were two tiered: client and database. The way they worked was by connecting directly to the database and/or a shared filesystem in the local network. All validation happened client-side.

Database credentials and fine-grained file/directory permissions were the only security measures. That and the NAT. ;)

There's still software in the market that uses this model, like some niche ERPs from the 90s and software catered to small/mid businesses.

Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by johnchristopher on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @12:09PM (#21826925)
> Database credentials and fine-grained file/directory permissions were the only security measures. That and the NAT. ;)

It baffles me that the CCNA materials is still based around these use cases.

Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by wayoutthere on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @11:46AM (#21826684)
> The simplest way to do that kind of retrofit was to drive the UI from the application: The application fills in its own gui fields which triggers the validation, then simulates a click on OK.

> Not that I want to call you dumb, of course. IT today is different from 20 years ago.

The meteoric rise of RPA within IT shops is recreating the same situation. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by dandelo53 on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @12:29PM (#21827151)
I think RPA is the merging functional and technical, which is what all the debate is revolving around... Change can't happen without change
Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by walterbell on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @12:25PM (#21827112)
What is RPA?
Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by dandelo53 on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @12:31PM (#21827166)
This link should resist time rot: https://www.google.com/search?q=top+rpa+vendors
Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by walterbell on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @01:08PM (#21827517)
"Robotic process automation" was indeed what came up in my web search for the term, but it seemed an unlikely fit for generic distributed app development. Why is robotic process automation sweeping "IT shops"?
Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by wayoutthere on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @01:15PM (#21827571)
Because rather than upgrading software and building APIs that integrate at a low level, IT shops are building software and APIs on top of UI automations. Some new fancy service desk platform the suits want may not have a connector to your 15 year old heavily-customized SAP instance (which is run by another team you have no influence with), and budget / time constraints leave RPA as the only option.

It's pretty easy to see why this would cause problems, but the consulting companies have been pushing hard on RPA because when it blows up in 5 years, who are you going to call? I say this as a consultant who has to sell this awful crap because "partnerships".

Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by walterbell on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @01:54PM (#21827981)
Thanks for the context. Seems like the latest incarnation of scripting 3270/mainframe terminals, telnet/expect sessions or web/selenium/headless browsers.

Copy&paste is the enterprise API/data integrator of last resort. Image/video is another integration point. iOS can screen capture full-page images of web pages, with tools for human annotation. Soon the local ML/bionic processor and AR toolkit can perform text recognition on those images, which means they can be live edited, re-composed and fed into another system.

> fancy service desk platform the suits want may not have a connector to your 15 year old heavily-customized SAP instance (which is run by another team you have no influence with)

This intersects with DRM and the title of the OP story. When OrgA and OrgB fail to partner/cooperate (e.g. no formal integration) or are actively hostile (implement DRM to prevent data movement between OrgA and OrgB products), it creates pain for customers and new business opportunity for OrgC and OrgD.

Which is why scraping and reverse engineering are never going away, they are society's last line of defense against vendor org dysfunction.

Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by wayoutthere on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @03:40PM (#21829183)
Oh it's so much worse than that. Swivel-chair / copy-paste integrations are often a better solution than RPA in today's world.

It was one thing scripting mainframe terminals, but the equivalent today are SaaS apps. The major enterprise vendors like Salesforce are pretty good about roadmaps and release schedules, but a lot of the smaller ones work on more of a continuous deployment model. This means your RPA integrations are constantly breaking, and suddenly you have to hire a whole bunch of RPA analysts to deal with fixing them. Or you can just hire a few more data entry people to do it manually.

Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by foobiekr on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @10:35PM (#21831851)
I ... I feel bad saying this, but I can totally see a use for RPA.

One, and more often than not, applications embed a ton of business logic in the client which is not easily available in the API.

Two, and honestly I feel dirty writing this, the UI is usually a lot better tested. Or tested at all.

I'm just the messenger, here. We were very adamant about NOT doing this in my previous company or our current projects, but I can totally understand the "it's good enough for humans, it's good enough for machines" attitude. It makes me sad though.

Re:The top bug predictor is not technical, it's organization... by m463 on Wednesday December 18, 2019 @06:07PM (#21830415)
Is MVC a good thing?