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Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by z3ugma on Thursday December 05, 2019 @01:27PM (#21714791)
I was a technical project management consultant for a long time. The value that most orgs get from a consultant isn't really in the advice the consultant gives them, it's the political cover to make changes they knew they should make all along, but didn't have the social capital or the focus to make those changes until they had a person in a chair across from them.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by crazygringo on Thursday December 05, 2019 @01:55PM (#21715121)
It's exactly this.

Within any organization, you can have 3 or 6 important people pushing in completely different strategic directions. And it can be clear to any unbiased observer that there's only one good, responsible choice, but within your org that gets met with essentially "but that's just your opinion, man".

So you call in a consulting firm and they deliver what most of the people already know. The consultants don't need to be rocket scientists.

But afterwards, nobody can say it's just your opinion any more. It's now expert analysis that you paid good $$$ for, and everybody who disagreed before now basically has to get on board.

So it's not even necessarily political "cover", but almost like a referee that brings enough credibility to settle otherwise intractable internal disputes.

Also, this lets the CEO appear unbiased to all the people who "lost". So they can get on board with the new policy but not feel like the CEO shot them down personally, which is bad for morale, can lead them to quit, etc. (Just because they believed in the wrong strategy doesn't mean they still can't be super-valuable in the future in executing the right strategy.)

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by slg on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:28PM (#21715542)
>Also, this lets the CEO appear unbiased to all the people who "lost". So they can get on board with the new policy but not feel like the CEO shot them down personally, which is bad for morale, can lead them to quit, etc.

The flip side is that it is also bad for morale for someone to be recommending a solution for some time, the recommendation is ignored, a consultant is hired, the consultant recommends the same solution, and then the recommendation is implemented. This is exacerbated when the consultant's fee is some large percent or maybe even a multiple of the salary of the person who originally recommended the solution. It makes the original employee feel worthless and doubt the leadership's ability to properly evaluate solutions.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by luma on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:25PM (#21716724)
As a consultant I like to flip this situation around, and let the internal staff who are already advocating for the direction I feel is best to be my biggest cheerleaders. Engage them early, let them know you're there to help them personally, and they'll help you do a better job when presenting your shared ideas to the brass.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by sailfast on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:40PM (#21716885)
But... it’s not your shared idea.

It’s their idea, and the company didn’t have a process in place to let them present it except through your consulting engagement. Sure, if it’s a good outcome for the employee to work with you to get things implemented fine, but it still stings a bit that someone from the outside was trusted more than an invested employee before any traction occurred.

See also: “let’s hire a consulting firm to recommend an operating model to us.” (Often before we’ve asked our own employees)

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by luma on Thursday December 05, 2019 @05:55PM (#21717619)
I don't control the situation I've walked into and the events preceding, but I can control the outcomes. I'm not there to take credit for other people's work, but if management isn't on board with their ideas, I can oftentimes help to frame the message so it will be better received. If the "rank and file" is willing to work with me, I'm going to bend over backwards to make sure they have a seat at the table and that their existing work is recognized. I get paid either way so there's no point in trying to take all the credit.

I understand that, as the employee whose ideas have gone unheard, this whole situation may be perceived as a ridiculous waste of time and money. Sometimes it actually is. It might be management's own inability to discern good ideas from bad, a poor understanding of the business or technology problems they face, the solutions available on the market, or lack of trust in their own staff.

More often it's simply managers looking for a broader perspective from an outsider who has engaged other organizations with similar business and technology problems. I start with the understanding that they're sincerely looking to do the right thing until they give me reason to believe otherwise.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by btown on Thursday December 05, 2019 @08:02PM (#21718412)
This is a really refreshing and inspiring approach, and it speaks to the importance of "tactically deployed empathy." You're one of the good ones :)

Do you have any recommendations on resources/articles/books, either for "rank and file" trying to ensure their messages are framed well, or for consultants or others who find themselves in situations helping ideas to cut through the noise?

I'll share one that I've found incredibly helpful in the past: "Never Split The Difference" by Chris Voss https://www.amazon.com/dp/B014DUR7L2/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by Aeolun on Thursday December 05, 2019 @11:08PM (#21719199)
I think it’s much more often managers trusting the advice that they paid $3 million for more than the advice that they’re paying $100k/year for.

It doesn’t matter that the $3M advice is given by someone barely more than an undergraduate. McKinsey wouldn’t still be a company if they fucked people over like that would they? (hint: They would)

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by sailfast on Thursday December 05, 2019 @10:21PM (#21719006)
I understand why you’re there, and I’m with you having worked as a consultant in this role a number of places. Once you’re in the seat there’s a way to do it right.

The OP’s point about morale impact,however, still stands regardless of a consultant’s intentions, I think. Further, the fact that shorter engagement consultants will not really understand your org even with outside experience which is hugely exasperating for “human capital”, “change management” or “just do X” IT improvement decks.

So many organizations go straight to the outside instead of trying to establish some healthy internal dialog around improvement. To me this is an anti-pattern, and happens to be hugely profitable for consultancies.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by slowhand09 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @06:16PM (#21717716)
My boss' (we were internal consultants) mantra was "we can accomplish anything if we don't get hung up on who gets the credit". She is one of the best I worked for.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by mjparrott on Thursday December 05, 2019 @05:27PM (#21717358)
Large firms do have the ability to offer ideas from a different perspective. Their value isn’t 0 for ability to give new ideas.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by heartbreak on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:30PM (#21716788)
Meta, but this comment reads exactly like it was written by a consultant.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by zacharycohn on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:44PM (#21716923)
They literally wrote "As a consultant..."
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by thaumasiotes on Thursday December 05, 2019 @05:08PM (#21717165)
That's one of the biggest red flags that something may have been written by a consultant. ;D
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by naravara on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:26PM (#21716739)
>The flip side is that it is also bad for morale for someone to be recommending a solution for some time, the recommendation is ignored, a consultant is hired, the consultant recommends the same solution, and then the recommendation is implemented.

Speaking as a consultant, my experience has been the opposite. I have walked into many organizations, said <obviously good thing>, and been hailed as a hero by the handful of folks who had been saying <obviously good thing> all along because FINALLY someone gets it! These are people who have been killing themselves in the trenches fighting this fight forever. When you finally show up and resolve it it's like the Army of the Dead in Return of the King. Fight's over, you can go bask in your "told you so" afterglow now.

It also turns out that most of the time, those people may have been smart enough to get <obviously good thing>, but were pretty bad at communicating the value of <obviously good thing> to anyone who mattered or at making a plan for how to get from <bad thing> to <obviously good thing>.

All of this is not to credit McKinsey or any of big consulting. They mostly provide a "signature method" to launder your your obvious observations into a glitzy powerpoint presentation to make it look like you applied rigorous testing and experience to what was really a cursory observation your entry level analyst made. All the people with actual experience are too busy killing themselves at business development and facilitating this "observation laundering" process to apply their brain power to developing actual insights.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by pseudalopex on Thursday December 05, 2019 @05:39PM (#21717457)
The "told you so" afterglow wears off when the people they told take credit, get bonuses, and still don't listen.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by thkim on Thursday December 05, 2019 @11:19PM (#21719238)
When you are a junior staff you don't understand why decisions are made rather inefficiently. You only come to understand as you move up the ladder in the organization.

There is nothing stupid or evil about how "organization" behaves. It's exactly same as the society we all live in, just at a smaller scale. When you are in the position to make the call, you see that someone's idea may be as good as someone else's idea. How do you decide which idea is right? Do you choose one and fire the other with another idea? What happens when a wrong decision is made? This is the exactly reason why CEO or executives make compromises. They have responsibility to make sure that the organization survives no matter which scenario pans out. Junior staff often don't understand this because they can always move onto another opportunity when things collapse. As their career progresses, they also come to understand that you can't torch the field just because you don't like the crop growing there - it's much harder to find fertile land to begin with.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by bkor on Friday December 06, 2019 @05:02AM (#21720452)
> Junior staff often don't understand this

As people move up they either still know the business or they don't. Not trusting the people whom are running the actual business is IMO terrible.

The COO at the company I work for (recently left) could describe the daily work in detail. He could have conversations with any recently hired staff, various level of management, but also with the board, investors and customers. Lastly, he (amazingly) knew all the people he worked with before. No matter if that person 10+ years later is still in the same position (or not).

IMO having a good network, being able to communicate with various levels is highly beneficial. Your post seems to suggest some staff should not be taken seriously. That's utterly weird to me.

> How do you decide which idea is right?

From your post it seems one of the options is not to listen to staff. Further, junior staff won't gain experience if you do not let them develop.

> They have responsibility to make sure that the organization survives no matter which scenario pans out.

For one, why isn't this explained? Secondly, some decisions are bad without actually going into it any further. Then multiple years are wasted while everyone involved knew this from the start; they were just not listened to.

IMO regarding "scenario pans out": for some cases it's entirely true. But also sometimes it's not the case at all... just nobody listened to the people running the business and too much disconnect.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by munchbunny on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:50PM (#21715781)
Wasn't sure if this was an autocorrect problem, but if it wasn't, by "exasperated" did you mean "exacerbated"?
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by slg on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:56PM (#21715832)
Yep, although I can't blame autocorrect. I simply spelled it wrong and lazily chose the first suggestion from the browser's spell checker without giving it much thought. Thanks for the heads up.

Ironically the situation is exacerbated leaving the person exasperated.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by braythwayt on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:01PM (#21715891)
Also /s/moral/morale, although they can be closely related: People imposing immoral policies definitely create bad morale!
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by slg on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:10PM (#21715971)
Thanks. At this point I should probably go ahead and hire an editor to review my comments before publishing.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by braythwayt on Thursday December 05, 2019 @07:00PM (#21718033)
Speaking as a frequent commenter and author, I suggest this is teh system working as intended. There are not letters to the editor you put in in envelope and mail away.

When HN "published" your letter to the editor, it's not printed on atoms and distributed all over town, or mailed out to subscribers.

You can post a comment, edit it, and maybe even fix something based on feedback. I suggest that without being completely slipshod, it's better to go ahead and make a comment when you have a coherent thought.

The community will help you sort out any spelling, grammar, or attribution hiccups. I think this is a good thing for everyone, reducing friction and eliminating even self-gate-keeping.

Mixing up two homophones is not a tragedy. Someone not contributing because they fear that they'll be snubbed for getting a word wron? That's a tragedy.

JM2C, &c.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by antjanus on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:49PM (#21716320)
if you don't want to feel like you're pandering to HN comments, you can probably hire a consultant to do the proof reading for you! =D
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by ineedasername on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:07PM (#21716506)
I cut out the middleman and just pay people to comment for me entirely. This one cost me $34, one dollar per word. But punctuation is free so it is not a bad deal.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by underdown on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:35PM (#21715624)
Wouldn't one enjoy some benefits from being proven right?
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by spamizbad on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:03PM (#21715905)
I've been in this position. The feeling of satisfaction wears off in a few minutes. My resume was updated later that week and I was on to the next adventure within two months.

And this was with a DR who stuck up for me and mentioned to the CEO directly that we paid a consultancy big bucks to tell us something a chorus of engineering team members have been saying for years.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by ScalaFan on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:46PM (#21716950)
Their loss. Your new employer's gain.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by underdown on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:30PM (#21716778)
Sorry to hear that. Hope things worked out.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by spamizbad on Thursday December 05, 2019 @07:09PM (#21718094)
It did! I wasn’t even super pissed about it, was just the straw that broke the camels back
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by geodel on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:43PM (#21715713)
I haven't seen enlightened management who appreciate people who are proven right. It is mostly interested in people proven wrong face consequences. Those who got it right are just doing their day job.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by alistairSH on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:45PM (#21716284)
Right up until you realize the 23 year old snot who made the recommendation billed ~$3 million against your ~$100k salary.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by agiamas on Thursday December 05, 2019 @05:10PM (#21717192)
McK will bill $3 million, the 23 year old may get at best same as your $100k salary. Which makes everyone feel sour, esp the youngster for getting 3% of what their boss charged the client...!
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by Aeolun on Thursday December 05, 2019 @11:11PM (#21719211)
I think the snot is pretty happy with his ‘all expenses paid’ little vacation.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by LameRubberDucky on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:30PM (#21716787)
The person billed that for the consulting company, but I doubt they got that much. Consulting companies burn both ends.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by crazygringo on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:37PM (#21716845)
If you look at entry-level consultant salaries at McKinsey and then divide by the fact that they're often working 7-day, 100-hour workweeks... you'll quickly discover that your "23 year old snot" is actually making around minimum wage on an hourly basis. They could be flipping burgers instead with a lot less stress.

The consultants aren't the ones taking the money home, the firm is. So don't blame the 23 year old. He or she is honestly just doing their insane best to pay off their huge student loans.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by opencl on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:58PM (#21717067)
100 hours a week at federal minimum wage is less than $38k. These people are not making anything remotely close to minimum wage.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by solveit on Thursday December 05, 2019 @07:23PM (#21718208)
But federal minimum wage ($7.25) is a lot smaller than, say, the NYC minimum wage ($15), which is more relevant. At the NYC minimum wage, 100-hour work weeks get you about 80k a year, which is about the base pay for an undergraduate new hire at McKinsey.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by dctoedt on Thursday December 05, 2019 @10:00PM (#21718914)
The 23 year old is hoping to become a partner someday and then really rake in the bucks by leveraging successive new crops of 23 year olds.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by bonestamp2 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:24PM (#21716106)
Ideally, but unless that person was well known for their opinion then the consultants usually get all the credit.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by cgio on Thursday December 05, 2019 @08:01PM (#21718402)
Consultants fill positions with responsibilities that are short term. You have to ask yourself whether you are in a position that bears saying in what will happen from your long term viewpoint. If not then lobby the consultant to make it so e.g. by changes in operating model, creation of a Centre of Excellence etc. If there is a failure in hearing people ideas the presence of a consultant is as much a symptom as it is an opportunity.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by MiracleUser on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:23PM (#21716706)
I completely agree with this sentiment, and now I add any and all analyst responsibilities I come across to my desk just so that I can better articulate my recommendations in c-level business language
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by jkestner on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:08PM (#21715956)
I know y’all want to repeat the whole thing about consultants we've all heard before, which sure, is “exactly this”, but the article goes much deeper, and is specific to the government.

Here, consultants are ripping off taxpayers because a Clinton-era rule financially incentivized the government to outsource work to “entrepreneurs”. This department is literally given a percentage of the money it gives to consultants.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by sailfast on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:44PM (#21716931)
GSA gets a cut of contract purchases that go through them but this makes sense because it incentivized them to be better alternatives than an agency’s own contract shops. Typically working through a GSA schedule like this can lead to faster turnaround and lower prices - nobody can charge the government more than their best commercial customer, legally, under this framework. If you don’t get value, put your own RFP on the street.

The incentive to get more dollars if you get more under management as a contract-service-provider does make sense. They’re not a monopoly on procurement in government, despite the author writing a book about monopolies.

Note: in some cases they have monopolies on some things in government, but not procurement.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by iudqnolq on Thursday December 05, 2019 @06:35PM (#21717860)
Thanks for providing the background on how this came about, it makes a bit more sense now.

Could we get the same result by allocating the GSA a flat amount based on what they need and then penalize them by cutting the budget if no one uses their services, just like we do for other agencies?

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by sfuller808 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @08:45PM (#21718589)
No, the structural/legislative design of the GSA protects it from penalties because most of Gov't procurement is routed through its offices both Military (with caveats of course) & Civilian. The GSA spends money to reduce spending.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by iudqnolq on Thursday December 05, 2019 @10:02PM (#21718924)
Interesting. I was discussing hypothetical possibly better arrangements, however, it's clear from the original article that the GSA doesn't currently operate this way.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by LameRubberDucky on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:33PM (#21716810)
Isn't this the definition of a kickback?
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by defen on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:55PM (#21717035)
A kickback is when you personally get reimbursed for your decision, which isn’t the case here. A government office is being funded by a fee on services rendered.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by beambot on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:26PM (#21715519)
"Referee" is too unbiased a word. Shocking how frequently the consultants' conclusions mirror the arguments posed by the side that pays their fees.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by kube-system on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:09PM (#21715961)
Money is one thing, but there's also just plain old information bias. Politics don't go away when the consultants come in. The consultants are going to be working closer with the group that brought them in. It's not uncommon in my experience for the 'other group(s)' to ghost the consultants.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by ACow_Adonis on Thursday December 05, 2019 @06:51PM (#21717963)
Except the consultants don't always put forward the one best solution, they put forward the solution of the person paying the dollars.

I remember one awkward situation i was familiar with where two diametrically opposed groups both notionally hired the same consultancy firm to write their respective proposals/submissions.

No points for guessing whether the consultancy offered the same advice...

Funny in one sense, but only because if you don't laugh you'll cry...

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by coffeemug on Friday December 06, 2019 @02:06AM (#21719813)
See, the problem is that when companies get big they stop thinking in terms of values and start thinking in terms of equilibria.

A values approach to this problem would be promoting people with good taste, and then building a culture of acquiescing when they decide to step in. If someone doesn't like that, fuck 'em. Yeah it might hurt in the short term, but every time you let people with bad taste stall the show you erode your culture a little, until one day you come to work and realize that nobody can decide anything anymore.

An equilibrium approach is to say "well, a consultant will cost $3M/year, and potentially pissing off Alice and Bob and Carol and maybe Dan is painful and it's difficult to calculate how much that will cost, and $3M < UNDEFINED == TRUE so let's hire McKinsey".

I have a huge soft spot for economics, but the thing about equilibria like this is that they never account for externalities and long term costs, and $3M < UNDEFINED is just bad logic to use, and also it's spineless and cowardly and people should know better.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by jrochkind1 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:47PM (#21716307)
> Within any organization, you can have 3 or 6 important people pushing in completely different strategic directions. And it can be clear to any unbiased observer that there's only one good, responsible choice,

Or, there ISN'T a clear exactly one good responsible choice, it really is a matter of judgement and/or choice of priorities/values... and then whoever can exert the most control over the contractor can still get their way by getting the contractor to pick their side.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by abbadadda on Thursday December 05, 2019 @06:36PM (#21717864)
> "but that's just your opinion, man".

TIL The Dude is a phenomenal businessman.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by braythwayt on Thursday December 05, 2019 @01:37PM (#21714911)
This.

I have done lots and lots and lots of enterprise sales and consulting, and a big part of bringing in outsiders is to provide the illusion of social proof.

"Well, we had the experts in, and they found..."

That sounds really, really terrible when put so cynically, but the flip side of that is to view it as insurance. If you bring the consultants in, hoping that they will recommend Plan A, and Plan A is truly terrible, a reputable consultant will find a way to sell you on Plan B, by couching it as "A few adjustments to Plan A."

So in effect, yes, it is about making changes management wanted all along, but in addition to providing the illusion of social proof, you can also get an extra set of eyes to make sure that you don't completely footgun yourself.

Sometimes. Maybe. If the consultants are good at both analysis and selling management on adjusting their plans...

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by bonestamp2 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:28PM (#21716132)
Agreed, and even if the consultants aren't more credible than the intern people, they at least have less bias than internal people, which can sometimes give their opinion a little more weight.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by taneq on Thursday December 05, 2019 @11:04PM (#21719185)
Another big part of it is liability management. If you're a high level exec and you make the wrong call, it's on your own head. If you hire a reputable expert and they make the wrong call, you're in the clear, even if it's what you would have done anyway.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by ndarwincorn on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:35PM (#21715623)
This entirely misses the forest for the trees. And granted the author's bias gets in the way of his attempt to point out that forest. Their bias aligns with mine, but with less editorialization IMO the following would be more clear:

It's not that the work is or isn't valuable, or where that value is. It's that McKinsey charges 72% more than a competitor for the same consulting, and that there's a massive perverse incentive for public servants in charge of awarding contracts to pick the most expensive one.

From the article, bias left in:

Back in August, I noted that McKinsey’s competitor, the Boston Consulting Group, charges the government $33,063.75/week for the time of a recent college grad to work as a contractor. Not to be outdone, McKinsey’s pricing is much much higher, with one McKinsey “business analyst” - someone with an undergraduate degree and no experience - lent to the government priced out at $56,707/week, or $2,948,764/year.

...

And this gets to the second reason why McKinsey can charge so much, which has to do less with McKinsey and more with an incentive to overpay more generally. It’s more likely something called the ‘Industrial Funding Fee,’ or IFF. The GSA’s Federal Acquisition Service gets a cut of whatever certain contractors spend using the GSA’s schedule, and this cut is the IFF. The IFF is priced at .75% of the total amount of a government contract. In the case of McKinsey, since 2006, “FAS has realized $7.2 million in Industrial Funding Fee revenue.”

...

Does McKinsey do a good job? The answer is that it’s probably no better or worse than anyone else. I’m sure there are times when McKinsey is quite helpful, but it’s in all probability vastly overpriced for what it is, which is basically a group of smart people who know how to use powerpoint presentations and speak in soothing tones. You can just go through news clippings and find areas McKinsey did cookie cutter nonsense. For instance, McKinsey helped ruin an IT implementation for intelligence services. In the immigration story, MacDougall shows that the consulting firm encouraged ICE to give less food and medical care to detainees. That’s cruelty, not efficiency.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by unreal37 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @06:20PM (#21717753)
One could argue that $3 million per year for a university undergrad with no experience is not merely "72%" overpriced, but is in fact 1000%-3000% overpriced.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by bumby on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:29PM (#21716144)
> there's a massive perverse incentive for public servants in charge of awarding contracts to pick the most expensive one.

I'm not quite following your logic here, could you elaborate a bit more? There's nothing prohibiting well-funded competitors from similar GSA approval, is there? My understanding is that this method is used to streamline contract awards...being listed on a GSA schedule means you've gotten a stamp of pre-approval (i.e., you've checked all the boxes to meet government contract requirements).

An overly simplified example would be that an agency can go from a whole soup-to-nuts bid process that takes, say, nine months to award. Or, they could select a contractor from a GSA schedule list of contractors and have it awarded in two months. Those numbers are arbitrary, but hopefully you get the point. Agencies have a variety of reasons they may want to hurry the process along, but over-paying isn't likely one of them.

Further, most government contracts go to "lowest bidder"; in order to be awarded to a higher priced contractor, they usually need to be part of a "best value" contract that is generally more difficult to justify.

I could be off on this, but understanding has been that the government is almost overly incentivized to award to the lower bidder, even when the lower bidder is the riskier bet.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by ndarwincorn on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:04PM (#21716472)
Everyone replying answered this, I'd just like to point out that the answer to 'could you elaborate a bit more' is to read the parent article.

Another excerpt:

> In 2013, the GSA Inspector General traced a similar situation with different contractors. Managers at GSA overruled line contracting officers to raise prices taxpayer pay for contractors Carahsoft, Deloitte and Oracle. Government managers at GSA micro-managed and harassed their subordinates and damaged the careers of contracting officers trying to negotiate fair prices for the taxpayer.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by bumby on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:10PM (#21716542)
Thanks, what I'm not quite getting is that the other contractors are listed. What seems to get lost is that the GSA doesn't select the contractors, they just list them.

The connecting dot that's missing is why agencies choose the more expensive option when it benefits the GSA, not the agency using their schedule.

For the perverse IFF incentive structure logic to hold true, it seems like GSA would be incentivized to approve rate increases across the board. Why just McKinsey?

In other words, the GSA sets the contract but not the order. If there are cheaper contracts available in place on the GSA schedule, I would think agencies are incentivized to choose the lower bid.

edit: mistakenly stated "agencies" instead of "contractors" regarding what gets listed

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by ndarwincorn on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:25PM (#21716726)
This is reading more and more like you're begging the question. One of the sibling replies that predates this comment by a quarter of an hour already addresses your specific missing connecting dot here. Not to mention the article itself, which is also well cited.

It's good. I suggest you read it. Interrogating my two sentence oversimplification of the forest is not a useful way to learn about this.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by bumby on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:36PM (#21716837)
I get the impression some of the commenters don't really have experience with government contracts on either the public or private side.

The IG report points out real problems, but I think people are extrapolating too far because they don't truly understand how contracts are awarded via the GSA schedule. I think people are confusing being awarded a listing on a GSA schedule with an actual order. Being on the GSA schedule just means is there is an agreed upon price for a product or service. An agency still needs to chose that product or service before any money changes hands.

The GSA essentially produces a catalogue of products and services. Like the article mentions, it seems like the GSA allowed McKinsey to name their price and that is, as the article says, "honest graft". The article also implies other contractors are also listed, although they don't get similar preferential price treatment. So the GSA isn't down-selecting the number of "items" listed in the "catalogue" to force agencies into selecting the expensive McKinsey. It's just inflating the price of one item. What isn't covered is why agencies are selecting the more expensive item. To me, that is where the real corruption would be.

To play devil's advocate, the whole IG issue could potentially be attributed to a bad contracting supervisor who reassigned the contracting officer who was fighting against the price increase. The fact that the other companies were denied similar price increases indicates to me that it's not a cultural issue of "honest graft".

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by ndarwincorn on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:52PM (#21717005)
I get the impression you're over-simplifying this and grasping for whatever assumption you need just to try to make your point.

While some of us have run with my oversimplification, there are plenty of comments in this sub-thread about down-selecting. Your answer to that is a giant assumption on what the article (which again is rigorously sourced) 'implies'.

> The article also implies other contractors are also listed, although they don't get similar preferential price treatment.

In fact, the IG report[0] that is cited in the selection of the article I replied with has nothing to do with McKinsey, but a different contractor altogether. Reading comprehension is your friend here: "In 2013, the GSA Inspector General traced a similar situation with different contractors."

Agencies aren't necessarily selecting the more expensive item. As you point out, in most cases they have a mandate not to. They're awarding the bid to an already-short list designed to generate the highest IFF possible for the GSA.

Which is what the article's about.

[0]https://www.gsaig.gov/sites/default/files/audit-reports/A120...

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by bumby on Thursday December 05, 2019 @05:48PM (#21717537)
If anything, my intent was to guard against the oversimplified conclusions by adding some nuance. I concede the point that it's larger than just McKinsey. But it seems like people are extrapolating to make a point that the government is forced into picking between just a few favored firms. That point is central to the author's larger theme about the politics of monopolies. The issue I have is, while there seems to be some graft, it doesn't mean there is a monopoly. In the same vein:

> They're awarding the bid to an already-short list

This makes it sound like the GSA is forcing agencies to select from a small handful of contractors from a list catered to make the GSA the most money. I don't think it's actually true and it seems like it's inferred from the article without evidence. There are literally thousands of vendors just in the IT Services schedule mentioned in the article[1].

What seems more likely is what another commenter stated. Agencies select the excessively expensive McKinsey because they are essentially buying social capital.

Edit: there’s actually over 13k vendors listed under IT services [2]

[1]https://www.gsa.gov/technology/technology-purchasing-program...

[2] https://www.gsaelibrary.gsa.gov/ElibMain/scheduleSummary.do?...

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by ramblenode on Thursday December 05, 2019 @10:17PM (#21718989)
I was also wondering this. There seems like a pretty good case for the headline, but the more interesting question from the article is whether funding the GSA through some alternative (appropriations) would save the government money compared to the IFF. Which may come down to the kind of behavior the IFF incentivizes, whether it be corruption or self-serving yet legal optimizations. The information you provided about the base rate would have benefited the article by giving some idea of the scale on which the GSA operates.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by GlenTheMachine on Thursday December 05, 2019 @05:17PM (#21717249)
This is actually quite a good question, and I don't understand why you're being given such grief for it. But I also might have an answer. TL;DR: the government isn't paying McKinsey for services rendered. It's paying for bureaucratic capital, which is a Veblen good.

There is a confluence of two dynamics going on here. The first is that once a contractor is listed on the GSA schedule, you don't have to justify their price. The process of getting listed on the GSA Schedule is supposed to mean that the government has already vetted the goods being offered and the price they're being offered for. No further competition is needed. You can simply place an order for the goods or service listed and like magic it sails through the government procurement process.

So the next question is, if contractor A and contractor B are both listed on the GSA Schedule as providing a given service, and contractor A is twice as expensive as contractor B, why would any rational individual choose contractor A? And the answer is, in this case, you aren't paying for the advice. You're paying for the social capital needed to make the advice stick. If all you wanted was the advice, you could certainly go to contractor B and pay them twice minimum wage to get a 23-year year old college graduate to give you advice. But that advice would not carry the weight you need to get upper management to take it as gospel, because you clearly didn't pay enough money for that. Nobody cares if you pay $50,000 to get consultant advice and then ignore what they told you.

So what you do instead is pick the name with the most cachet out of the entire list, given that you don't have to justify the price on a cost-benefit curve any more since it's already been GSA approved, knowing full well that they'll give you identical advice but now with a million-dollar price tag attached... and that fact will carry enough weight to get the changes they recommend all the way up to your agency director, who'll either sign off or have to take an incredible amount of public heat explaining why he/she didn't take the advice his/her own agency spent millions of dollars to get.

Basically, a straightforward application of the Washington Post rule.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by alistairSH on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:52PM (#21716349)
GSA gets paid a % of the fees charged by the consultant.

Therefore, the GSA has an incentive to have a very short list of highly paid consultants.

The individual agencies using the scheduled are supposed to pick the low bid, but if GSA has restricted the schedule, well, we all get ripped off.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by bumby on Friday December 06, 2019 @09:12AM (#21721871)
That is the way the article reads, but I think it reaches too far in it's conclusion.

Take the example schedule used in the article:

>McKinsey asked for 10-14% price hike for its already expensive IT professional services (which is a catch-all for anything).

The IT services schedule lists over 13,000 vendors [1]. McKinsey is listed on this schedule under four categories: 132-32, 132-50, 132-51, and 70-500. The most relevant to the article is 132-51, "IT Professional Services" which has 3,872 other contractors listed besides McKinsey. I personally wouldn't consider that evidence of the GSA restricting the schedule or indicative of a monopoly. This is what led me to my previous question as to why an agency would select the more expensive McKinsey given a reasonable amount of competition.

The ghostwriting brought up is a genuine concern and I would be in favor of investigating other funding mechanisms outside of the IFF pay structure. However, the author admits they are selling a book about how politics and monopoly are intertwined. Speaking of perverse incentives, I worry that the conclusions drawn are too heavily biased to support the book thesis rather than objectively looking at the broader context.

[1] https://www.gsaelibrary.gsa.gov/ElibMain/scheduleSummary.do?...

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by zentiggr on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:50PM (#21716330)
Reread the part about the IFF - GSA gets paid a percentage of their contracts.

So the bidding process gets corrupted, ignored, anything and everything the staff can do to inflate the contracts so they get more IFF back.

That IFF honestly sounds like the cleverest pork barrel hack since all the military contractors got theirs set up...

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by bumby on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:05PM (#21716483)
The part I don't understand is what's keeping competitors like the Boston Consulting Group from listing similar services on the GSA schedule at a better rate.

The article talks about the IG finding evidence that the GSA improperly approved cost increases for McKinsey. This makes sense in regards to perverse incentives but I didn't see anything about the GSA shutting out less costly competitors from the schedule of approved contractors. Since the GSA generally doesn't award contracts, I would expect to see some evidence that McKinsey was unduly favored in the schedule listing for stronger evidence of corruption.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by zentiggr on Friday December 06, 2019 @04:12PM (#21726039)
It's the fact that the affected staff deliberately didn't follow policy, and chose the inflated bids regardless of any others, that drives this.

There's no reason at all why BCG can't submit better rates. But that ensures the corrupted decision making will have the awards go to someone else. No one was preventing other bids, they just had the selection process locked up.

McKinsey wasn't favored in listings, only in the off-the-record selection bias.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by bumby on Friday December 06, 2019 @05:01PM (#21726421)
I think maybe people are conflating being awarded a contract on a GSA schedule to a purchase order. A GSA contract award is just a listing on the GSA schedule.

The GSA schedule mentioned in the article has 3000+ other vendors offering similar services. They all have been awarded GSA contracts. However, no purchase orders are attributed to those contracts until a government employee looks through that list of thousands of vendors and selects a specific vendor at the contract rate. The GSA doesn't actually select the execution of the contract, they just list the contract as part of the schedule of approved vendors.

It's like listing an app on the Google Play Store that charges 30%. That 30% is like the IFF from the article. Is it unethical if Google allows you to specify a really expensive app price? You could set your app price arbitrarily high like McKinsey but your app price is a moot point if nobody selects your app and instead chooses your competitors. What's interesting is that agencies do select McKinsey, indicated they at least perceive those costs are justified over the competitors listed on the same schedule.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by Freestyler_3 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:49PM (#21716326)
They pick more expensive because they get a percentage.

They get to ghost write their own assignment.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by bumby on Friday December 06, 2019 @10:43AM (#21722751)
The GSA awards the contract which sets the price for the services/products. The contract just sits there until another agency decides to leverage it. (i.e., the GSA isn't spending money executing the contract or forcing other agencies to do so either).

That contract isn't executed until another agency decides to use that service or product. The end-user agency benefits from a streamlined procurement process but does not receive any percentage of the contract. They are generally de-incentivized from selecting an expensive contract from the schedule, all things being equal.

Contractors influencing an unfair price is still a problem, but much less so if there are other contractors offering comparable products/services at a better rate because agencies are forced to buy the expensive option. What I haven't seen is discussion or evidence that the price inflation is systemic across a schedule that would elevate this to a full-blown scandal.

As stated in other replies, this doesn't appear to be nearly as outrageous as the article is interpreted in this discussion unless the GSA is inflating costs across the board. In the absence of that, end-using agencies can just select the cheaper option.

What was eluded to by another comment is that the more expensive contract may be selected if it's perceived to carry other social value above competitors. (e.g., "If it's coming from the prestigous McKinsey, it must be accurate")

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by JoshTko on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:20PM (#21716070)
I've seen this trend get worse on HN were top voted comment is just a response to the title and not the actual heart of the article.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by kinkrtyavimoodh on Friday December 06, 2019 @02:45AM (#21719942)
HN in the last 3-4 years has had the discussion quality of a mediocre subreddit (there are plenty of subreddits which are better than HN), but with an extreme air of self-importance.

I sometimes wonder what the demographic looks like, since most replies betray 1) lack of actual domain expertise and 2) the humility required to recognize (1)

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by organsnyder on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:09PM (#21715305)
That's also Epic's (the healthcare software vendor) big value proposition. Their software is okay—among an industry filled with shit, their turd is at least polished.

But their delivery model is incredible: they make customers woo them (shouldn't vendors be doing the wooing?), and they have a prescribed way of doing things if they decide you're worthy to purchase their product. What you get in return is a constant cudgel of "this is the Epic way" to yield when talking with practitioners who are used to doing things their own way (especially doctors—nurses are more flexible and pragmatic, in my experience). This can be especially useful when you have a system of multiple facilities that's grown through acquisitions, with each facility having decades of accumulated practices that aren't quite aligned with your other locations.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by TurkishPoptart on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:20PM (#21716069)
Very interesting. I'm part of a project to unify EHR systems for a number of giant hospitals in my area...all under Epic! The way they're selling it is "One patient, one bill, one record." There's all these Epic people running around, and they're all quite young and presentable, and they probably make some _killer_ slide decks. The funny thing is, our institution (a state body) actually hired some Deloitte people for their expertise. They told us to stick with Cerner, from which we're migrating. Nope, not gonna happen, we're too invested in Epic!
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by sjg007 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:57PM (#21715845)
I mean, honestly, for a medical record system, if you allow a million doctors specific customization then as a company you are going to be in for a bad time. Epic is basically the Borg at this point as well. Any customization should come from a consultancy via some well defined interface.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by sbuttgereit on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:23PM (#21715483)
I have been on the "client" side of consulting engagements and a consultant myself. I think you identify the central truth of consulting: that usually we're not bringing any magic knowledge to the table.

However, I think there are other circumstantial values that appear alongside the one you identify. I find that consultants not only provide cover, but also provide a level of focus on non-immediate, but important, problems that doesn't otherwise materialize on its own. Nobody wants to be seen wasting the highly paid consultant's time so you often get people paying attention when they might not otherwise. There's also setting the stage for what ends up as a sort of professional group therapy sessions and with the consultant as a mediator. I think you touch on that, but maybe I see some greater emphasis on that bit.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by Ill_ban_myself on Friday December 06, 2019 @09:44AM (#21722143)
Consultants have usually seen 10-20 successful versions of what you are trying to do and 3-4 failed versions materialize over the last three years.

The difference is usually whether the companies involved had the money and focus to mostly follow the consultant’s plan or whether it gets bogged down in customizations and committees of internal stakeholders at the company.

I’ve also seen a couple stall because 3rd party vendors over promised and totally dropped the ball but it’s usually the vendors that the company was locked into before the consultant came on board or some niche product with no good vendors in the space.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by gowld on Thursday December 05, 2019 @01:54PM (#21715120)
This is why consultants hire Ivy League graduates. To create a myth of "Ivy League" "quality" justifying the decisions they are hired to recommend.

The other thing management consultants do is industrial espionage -- they go into a company to learn how it work, and then advise other companies on how "industry leaders" operate.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by shantly on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:09PM (#21715316)
> The other thing management consultants do is industrial espionage -- they go into a company to learn how it work, and then advise other companies on how "industry leaders" operate.

This one doesn't get mentioned enough, I think. They'll happily sell you an outline of what you need to do to be in line with "industry best practices", where those practices are all the things your competitors are doing better than you (and guess what they'll sell those companies if they spot anything you're doing better than they are? Where do you think they learned about those "best practices" in the first place?).

It's basically a kind of weird, expensive, inefficient, unofficial business process collaborative R&D program.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by organsnyder on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:12PM (#21715359)
> It's basically a kind of weird, expensive, inefficient, unofficial business process collaborative R&D program.

That's a great elevator pitch for Gartner.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by crazygringo on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:02PM (#21715212)
Well, it's not just that.

Basically they need a bunch of people who are really good at ingesting a ton of data, analyzing it, and summarizing it.

Turns out those are exactly the same skills involved in writing academic papers, which gets you good grades.

So these people really are statistically disproportionately the people in Ivy League schools and similar who also got high GPA's in those schools.

So there's some reality behind what you call a myth.

(Obviously you can still be awesome at that and not have gone to an Ivy League school, that goes without saying.)

Edit: in response to a comment below... also you can of course be at an Ivy and not be a good writer too. Which is why consulting firms tend to have extremely selective hiring on campus through interviews with many rounds where most applicants get rejected, and pay huge attention to your GPA at college.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by kortilla on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:13PM (#21715364)
Not really. To get into an Ivy League school you only need to perform well in high school and have the right connections and/or guidance to build the perfect resume.

With college grade inflation and the fear of blowback from failing well-connected ivy students, the only guarantee you get from hiring an average Ivy League student is that you have someone who can write high school essays well. The typical undergrad graduate still barely has any critical thinking ability.

If you want people fresh out of school who can ingest data, analyze it, and summarize it, you want good grad students. Good grad students come from non-Ivy schools more often than not.

The only industries that care about Ivy League at this point are the ones where connections matter more than intellectual ability. Everywhere else has recognized that the pedigree is not a useful signal (see Google’s hiring data on this).

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by xnyan on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:22PM (#21715472)
Is there any empirical evidence of the claim that ivy league and similar grads are objectively better analytical writers than the mean college grad, and if so, how much better? How is that quantified?

The only conclusion you can always make about someone who graduated from a prestigious college is that many people will find this impressive. That's not to say this has no value, clearly it does.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by csa on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:37PM (#21715649)
> Obviously you can still be awesome at that and not have gone to an Ivy League school, that goes without saying.

One can also graduate from an Ivy and definitely not have these skills.

Although one might think that these folks are not consultants at McKinsey, I humbly suggest that this is incorrect — there are plenty of folks who McKinsey brings in for their social capital and/or social skills. Certain athletes and certain folks who know how to socialize with a given class of clients are just as valuable as the grinders, perhaps more so since the “face” of the organization leads to sales and client retention.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by theresAppleBias on Thursday December 05, 2019 @11:26PM (#21719264)
The longer I live, the more I've realized it's a myth.

The person/human is significantly more important.

After working with duds from top schools, I'm not sure why it happens. How do they get accepted? How do they graduate? How did they get past interviews?

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by crusso on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:03PM (#21715236)
it's the political cover to make changes they knew they should make all along

No argument here. Every single time that I've been in an organization that has brought in management consultants, the results of their work were almost exactly in line with advice that we had been feeding upper management for some time.

It's infuriating to have the right answers to solve problems while people at the top ignore good advice and then spend huge amounts of money to get that good advice repeated to them by other people.

Even worse is when upper management acts like the consultant advice is the first time they've heard those recommendations.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by Icathian on Thursday December 05, 2019 @01:34PM (#21714885)
Absolutely this. It baffles me how many people can understand and repeat ad nauseum "nobody ever got fired for buying IBM" but don't get the role a consultant plays in corporate strategy.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by globuous on Thursday December 05, 2019 @01:45PM (#21715002)
This !

In france, its a classic move by big companies to have mbb formalize what they already know: a need to restructure which unfortunately involves firing people. Its easier to justify restructuring because mbb said so than because the company says so for some reason ^^

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by salamander014 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:03PM (#21715233)
Companies trust capital expenses more than operational expenses for some strange reason. I don't know why.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by bumby on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:50PM (#21716329)
Cost Bias: A fallacy of ethos (that of a product), the fact that something expensive (either in terms of money, or something that is "hard fought" or "hard won" or for which one "paid dearly") is generally valued more highly than something obtained free or cheaply, regardless of the item's real quality, utility or true value to the purchaser.[1]

[1] http://utminers.utep.edu/omwilliamson/ENGL1311/fallacies.htm

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by organsnyder on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:12PM (#21715349)
I think it's psychological. With capital expenses, the decision to spend a lot of money tends to be a discrete event/process, while operations usually grow slowly over time. We place inherent value in big purchases—after all, I decided to make the purchase, so it must be valuable.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by sjy on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:04PM (#21716467)
Are consultants’ fees generally accounted for as capital expenditure? Seems more operational to me.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by bsder on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:24PM (#21715494)
> Its easier to justify restructuring because mbb said so than because the company says so for some reason

Is it a legal thing? European regulation tends to be quite aggressive when people get laid off, so I imagine that an external assessment helps give some cover for that.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by jerven on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:32PM (#21715587)
No it's a people thing. People want a scape goat and McKinsey delivers those by the billable hour. Especially in near government institutions.

Firing is somewhat more expensive, but if you want to close a location it is just an X million more not anything really complicated. Bigger chance the employees will be organized and fight in court, but in reality if management wants you out you will be.

The consultants are for the people who stay. You fire some group A, then you fire your consultations then group remain feels "Safe" again, when the bad consultants are gone.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by user5994461 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:02PM (#21715898)
It's both. In France for example, there isn't a sane and legal way to unilaterally lay off a permanent worker.

However there are provisions that allow a company to lay off whole percentages of its workforce if the company is planning to face financial difficulties or similar. This has to be justified somehow so better get external reports to cover your ass.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by ownagefool on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:25PM (#21716109)
I don't know if this is always the case.

High end consultancies have sold oursourcing that decimated the UKs IT orgs, and are now selling in-sourcing, whilst in reality many are just selling outsourcing to them with new buzzwords like DevOps and microservices.

It might be what the businesses wanted to do all along, but I'm not sure it's what they "knew they should be doing".

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by sjg007 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:00PM (#21715875)
I don't subscribe to this viewpoint. You have to have the clout to bring in the consultant in the first place. Now it may be a buy vs build decision and you are looking for advice on the buy side but I don't see it being about political cover when your "reputation" would be tied up with the consultant.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by kube-system on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:20PM (#21716065)
There are many projects where the build vs buy decision itself is politicized. Political rifts between business and IT is a story that is just as old as business software itself.

Super common scenario:

* The business thinks IT is too slow to implement, and doesn't understand business needs

* IT thinks the business changes priority too much and doesn't even understand their own business processes, and it's leading to technical debt because the demands of the business are half-baked

* So, the business brings in a consultant who says they will do everything they want, without any push-back, in half the time

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by potta_coffee on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:42PM (#21716245)
Two years later, the outsourced work is half-finished and what has been delivered is near-total garbage. All the best engineers have left the team and the business is scrambling to hire someone competent to cleanup the mess.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by kube-system on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:49PM (#21716323)
Sometimes a company with a competent IT department hires a bad consultant. Sometimes a company with an awful IT department hires a good consultant. Roll a dice.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by sjg007 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @07:14PM (#21718142)
Yeah... I don't really subscribe to this viewpoint. I think it's a meme at this point. "Politicized" is a trope in my opinion.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by kube-system on Thursday December 05, 2019 @10:35PM (#21719066)
Are you saying that you don't think office politics ...exists?
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by sjg007 on Thursday December 05, 2019 @11:07PM (#21719193)
I think it is important to avoid figurative language and stereotypes and develop an argument based on specific examples. To clarify my original comment, the assumption is that if you have to have clout to bring in the consultant (either by fiat or consensus) that does not absolve negative consequences nor provide political cover if a project fails.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by kube-system on Friday December 06, 2019 @12:37AM (#21719524)
Nobody in this thread suggested it would absolve negative consequences or provide political cover if a project fails.

It gives someone the political cover to make changes beyond their typical power that they knew were necessary.

Many large organizations are compartmentalized into divisions that act almost as independent sub-organizations. In these organizations, someone might have plenty of clout/budget/authority to bring in a consultant in their division, but not enough clout to convince a cross-divisional decision maker without some help.

For example: The President of MegaCorp North America thinks the Director of MegaCorp Widget Sales is whiny and asks for too many budget increases without a plan to the President's standard. Meanwhile, the reality is that everyone in MegaCorp Widget Sales knows they need this new piece of software. So, the Director of MegaCorp Widget Sales uses $100,000 of his existing budget to bring in some consultants to do a strategy plan for phase 1. Those consultants write up the same things that the Director and his employees have been asking for, but they put it in a shiny proposal with plenty of buzzwords. This satisfies the President sufficiently enough to award the budget increase for the phase 2 implementation project.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by sjg007 on Friday December 06, 2019 @01:07AM (#21719621)
Again, I don’t subscribe to this viewpoint which was my original comment. You can dress it up with hypotheticals but I don’t agree. Regardless of success or failure I think that “political cover” is a stereotype and not useful. Roll a dice as you say.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by thinkloop on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:07PM (#21715941)
There's another piece to it too: they are able to legally sell trade secrets between organizations. They update their "knowledge base" every engagement and become "specialists" in the field.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by dpeck on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:14PM (#21715374)
Exactly. Early in my career I learned that a consultant is almost never hired by an organization, a consultant is hired by a faction within an organization who already knows what they want the deliverable to be.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by CharlesColeman on Thursday December 05, 2019 @01:37PM (#21714913)
> it's the political cover to make changes they knew they should make all along

Or the political cover to make the changes they wanted to make all along.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by servercobra on Thursday December 05, 2019 @01:52PM (#21715086)
Yup, definitely true. I just got paid a fairly handsome sum for a one week gig at a large organization to write a report about a technical change. It was clear what the outcome was supposed to be and that the manager (who was just taking over some new orgs) already knew what they wanted to do, and just needed an external report to both bolster their decision and CYA. Luckily, what the manager wanted to do is also what I would have recommended, or it could have gotten a bit awkward.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by taude on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:28PM (#21716764)
Yeup, this. I worked at a former company who paid 7 figures for a re-org (lay-offs), and it was run mostly by 25 year olds, with the occasionally pre-recorded video by a big-co partner. Was really interesting dynamic that felt more like "Up in the Air". But it was obvious they did it for liability reasons and so they wouldn't have to take the blame for the lay-offs since it was the consultants who told them findings.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by bduerst on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:15PM (#21716605)
One of my profs in business school said that 1/3 of the time you hire consultants is because you know what you want to do but you need a fall guy in case it goes south. You're paying a premium to offload the liability.

Wash, rinse, repeat with the big 4.

Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by greggyb on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:18PM (#21716042)
An additional aspect is focus. By being expensive and not part of the normal reporting hierarchy, a consulting firm working on a project can have the luxury of focusing on just that project. This is a huge benefit.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by timwaagh on Thursday December 05, 2019 @05:06PM (#21717145)
That's just one type of consulting. Perhaps a very important type but governments tend to hire them for far more mundane reasons as well: government workers at some places rarely (never) get fired so it's more efficient to hire a consultant for a while instead of being stuck with a lifer even if the consultant is four times the cost.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by mathattack on Thursday December 05, 2019 @01:58PM (#21715171)
Same as “nobody got fired for hiring IBM”
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by lazyasciiart on Friday December 06, 2019 @02:39AM (#21719922)
That's not always the case. Sometimes they bring a consultant in with no intention of doing anything that gets suggested, so they can point to how much serious effort and money they spend on the topic.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by skydoctor on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:00PM (#21716443)
This calls for a P2P model of consultancy then: Company A acts provides neutral consultancy to Company B (in a unrelated field) and Company B or C provides neutral consultancy to Company A.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by chaostheory on Thursday December 05, 2019 @04:00PM (#21716442)
If we’re including the other consulting firms, it’s not just that. These companies effectively also function as a contracting platform ie a “AWS” for on demand employees instead of servers
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by maxkwallace on Thursday December 05, 2019 @02:12PM (#21715346)
On the positive side, I do think that if we repeat this truth enough times we can decrease the "cover my ass" value of consulting and help more orgs make change autonomously.
Re:Why Taxpayers Pay McKinsey $3M a Year for a Recent Colleg... by reallydontask on Thursday December 05, 2019 @03:04PM (#21715910)
it's the political cover to make changes they wanted to make all along

There is a difference, sometimes subtle sometimes not so