How were you able to visit it, honest question? As an American myself, I wouldn't dare set foot in that country. Was a visit there an easy experience? Would you go back?

I went when Americans were still allowed to go, with Koryo Tours, who I'd recommend strongly. As the only way to get in is with a tour agency, it's actually a very easy trip to arrange. All you have to do is get to Beijing, the agency takes care of the rest.

That said, I wouldn't call it an easy destination while you're there, depending on your personality type. You have no freedom of movement, are pretty transparently being used for domestic propaganda purposes, and you're with your NK tour guides 100% of the time (and they're very vocal about their distaste for America/Americans, even if they're friendly to you directly). If you're the kind of person who can't follow rules, or if you get vocal/aggressive/unpredictable (particularly when drinking), it is not the destination for you. Most (but not all) of the foreigners who've been detained in NK did something dumb while there that resulted in detainment; if you can imagine yourself acting similarly dumb, don't go.

That said, I had a great time, loved the group I ended up with, and saw a part of the world that few else have. I'd go back in a heartbeat as soon as the political climate between the US/NK changes for the better.

>if you can imagine yourself acting similarly dumb, don't go.

Funny, all the people I know that do dumb things can't imagine themselves acting dumb.

Great feedback ! From your first sentence, i assume you are american ? Would you recommend it to non americans that wish to enter us soil within the decade ?

Correct, and yep would highly recommend going. Tough to imagine it causing an issue getting into the US, as the trip originates/terminates in China and doesn't get you a passport stamp.

(Disclaimer: US immigration politics are crazy right now, so obviously take all that with a healthy grain of salt)

It's hard for me to understand why someone would want to go after reading about the case of Otto Warmbier[1]. There are plenty of interesting and exciting places to visit in the world that don't put you at the mercy of DPRK officials and their reaction to geopolitical events.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier

Is it also hard for you to understand why someone would go to the US after reading about the case of Eric Garner[1]? There are plenty of interesting and exciting places to visit in the world that don't put you at the mercy of police officers and their reaction to selling cigarettes.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner

Orders of magnitude apples and oranges here. Only a couple thousand westerners go to north korea a year. Compared to the 35 million people who smoke in the US and live to see another cigarette, I'd say you have better odds visiting the US.

Not that I condone traveling to North Korea, but Otto is almost definitely the example of "don't do something dumb" the op was thinking of.

>The tour group celebrated New Year's Eve by carousing in Pyongyang's Kim Il-sung Square before returning to their accommodations at the Yanggakdo International Hotel, where they continued drinking alcohol. Early in the morning of New Year's Day, Warmbier allegedly tried to steal a propaganda poster from a staff-only area of the hotel.

He stole a poster. [1] In North Korea. It was young and stupid and he shouldn't died for it, but he did break a law while he was over there.

[1] https://globalnews.ca/video/3544639/video-appearing-to-show-...

> don't do something dumb > he stole a poster

How are we certain that he did in fact steal the poster? For all we know he could have been entirely innocent and any other tourist could have been arrested and tortured for forged reasons too.

Well in this case there is a video.

It’s not clear in the video that it was him

Or where have said to have done something dumb.

You can't enter the country anymore with a US passport, but you certainly still can if you're a dual citizen.

Many tour operators regularly take people into North Korea to see guided tours. Keep in mind though, these are highly structured tours that are designed to keep you in line and only see certain things. You will be extremely safe while in the country, it's basically like a giant airport. Play in the boundaries and you're fine. Tens of thousands of tourists go there annually.

I am actually running a Hockey tournament in Pyongyang as a way to bridge the gap if anybody is interested. Unlike most tour operators, because we operate directly through the Ministry of Sports, we get a lot more liberties that you typically do not get through a regular tour agency that is only looking to provide to provide a cut and dry experience.

https://inertianetwork.com/pyongyang-cup

Before the state department banned travel there, it was quite easy as a US passport holder. You apply through a tour company based in China who will handle the arrangements. You show up in Beijing, collect your visa booklet (they don't stamp your passport), and fly into Pyongyang.

There's a school called the Pyongyang University of Science and Technology (https://pust.co) that invites foreigners to come teach North Korean citizens.

I spent 2 semesters teaching computer science at PUST and it was a wonderful experience. You really get to know the locals (both students and staff) much better than on a short tourist trip. Some highlights include teaching Dijkstra's algorithm by showing them google maps images of Pyongyang (which they hadn't seen from space before), talking about Snowden and how he used encryption to hide from the NSA, and having North Korean citizens contribute to open source machine learning projects (vowpal wabbit and mlpack). All the students I met with were also surprisingly well informed about both events in the US and American history.

You also get to do as much touristy stuff as you'd like. Two highlights for me were, visiting the Pueblo and the subway system. As a former naval nuclear officer, it was quite surreal to visit these places. The subway system is one of the few places in the world that US nuclear weapons cannot effectively target because it is buried so far underground (>100m). You have to spend about 5 minutes riding the longest escalator I've ever seen to get from the surface to the trains. It's a daily reminder to North Korean citizens that they've been targeted by US nuclear weapons for decades.

Educational exchanges have a long history of improving relations between countries, and so I'm a huge advocate for the PUST exchanges. Unfortunately, I had to stop going because President Trump no longer allows Americans to visit North Korea. If any non-Americans are interested in going, however, shoot me an email ([email protected]) and I'm happy to chat more with you about the experience.

Considering the students were allowed contact with an American and allowed the free access to the Internet and software you describe, I conclude they were children of the elites of the country.

Probably they were given this education so they could learn to deal with westerners and potentially to improve their training for cyber warfare and intelligence gathering in the west.

I'd bet within a few miles of the experience you enjoyed that there were families starving in substandard housing.

> Considering the students were allowed contact with an American and allowed the free access to the Internet and software you describe, I conclude they were children of the elites of the country.

My assessment is different.

I currently teach at an "elite" US college (liberal arts college ranked top-5 nationally with more than 20% of students having parents in the top 1% income bracket) and previously taught at a mid-ranked UC school. My impression is that the student demographics at PUST more closely resemble the mid-ranked UC school than the elite liberal arts school. The elite students in the DPRK tend to prefer their version of elite colleges like Kim Il Sung and Kim Chaek universities. For example, students from these other universities are regularly lauded in national newspapers for their achievements (which exceed those of PUST students), but PUST students have never been mentioned in a national newspaper as far as I am aware. My understanding is that students at these other universities have similar levels of internet access as students at PUST, but they do not have regular in person contact with westerners.

> Probably they were given this education so they could learn to deal with westerners and potentially to improve their training for cyber warfare and intelligence gathering in the west.

As someone who has professional experience running/developing cyberwarfare and nuclear military operations with the US military, I can unequivocally state that the work I did at PUST was not developing these capabilities for North Korea.

Western experts who study the DPRK largely agree with me that educational exchanges are a great way to improve relations between the US and DPRK building on the model of how educational exchanges improved relations between the US and USSR. See for example https://www.38north.org/2010/11/pyongyang-university-and-nk-...

> I'd bet within a few miles of the experience you enjoyed that there were families starving in substandard housing.

One of the major goals of the PUST project is to help improve and internationalize the North Korean economy. The longterm effect will be to improve the standard of living of all North Koreans.

> All the students I met with were surprisingly well informed about both events in the US and American history.

This is surprising to me. I imagine they read some news/propaganda about the events, rather than reading the NYTimes, WAPO, or BBC news directly. Can you comment on that?

> As a former naval nuclear officer

Did you have to get special approval?

> This is surprising to me. I imagine they read some news/propaganda about the events, rather than reading the NYTimes, WAPO, or BBC news directly. Can you comment on that?

Their history lessons certainly have a different emphasis than American history lessons. They emphasize things like slavery in the US and the CIA's interventions in Latin America in service of US businesses, but from all my conversations with students none of them had learned anything that was actually incorrect. They get their news mainly from government run newspapers, but also word of mouth spreads news pretty quickly.

> Did you have to get special approval?

It had been long enough since my time in service that non of my clearances were still valid, and so there was no special risk of me disclosing anything. I just contacted the American embassy in China and informed them of my plans.

Could you give us more information about the internet access? Do some people in NK have internet access? Did you? If so, what kind of restrictions were there? Any firewall like great firewall of China?

I would frequently have to download linux distributions for my work, and they would download in seconds. I was maxing out my gigabit lan connection. At the time, they throttled individual connections, but not total bandwidth useage, so you had to use something like a bittorent client that creates many simultaneous connections to get the high speeds. Latency was a big problem though. Skype calls were often very poor. And power is pretty spotty in Pyongyang, so all of this is assuming that there's electricity.

Graduate students at PUST (and other local universities) have unfiltered internet. Undergrads have a more limited access where they would have to request that I download a webpage for them, and then I'd go download it and stick it on a usb drive. One of the main limitations is that students are not supposed to create accounts on websites because this would lead to tracking of them, which would allow NSA/CIA to target them.

> Unfortunately, I had to stop going because President Trump no longer allows Americans to visit North Korea.

Not that I am particularly fond of taking Trump’s side on anything, but I think this is a fairly reasonable policy given North Korea’s tendency to kidnap Americans and use them as leverage in negotiations.

>I spent 2 semesters teaching computer science at PUST

How do you feel about educating the future hackers in the North Korean military? You almost certainly contributed to their ability to wage cyberwarfare.

As someone who has professional experience running/developing cyberwarfare and nuclear military operations with the US military, I can unequivocally state that the work I did at PUST was not developing these capabilities for North Korea.

Western experts who study the DPRK largely agree with me that educational exchanges are a great way to improve relations between the US and DPRK, building on the model of how educational exchanges improved relations between the US and USSR. See for example https://www.38north.org/2010/11/pyongyang-university-and-nk-...

But you taught computer science, yes? Would you say that it's difficult to teach someone hacking if they don't already have a working understanding of core computer science principles? If hackers in NK don't have access to digital infrastructure set up by other engineers, their work would be much more difficult if not impossible.

>Western experts who study the DPRK largely agree with me that educational exchanges are a great way to improve relations

Would you make a distinction between disciplines of agricultural engineering and more dangerous ones, such as nuclear science or aeronautical engineering?

Computing is a fundamental skill that forms the basis for all of modern life. We here at hacker news are constantly advocating that everyone (in the US) should learn some amount of programming, and I believe the same holds true in North Korea.

As a concrete example of the things I taught, look at the official KCNA webpage http://www.kcna.kp (North Korea's main state run newspaper).

This webpage is very poorly designed, and cannot even be indexed by Google due to poorly implemented AJAX queries. In my classes, we would talk about why this is bad design and how to improve it. The DPRK would benefit from producing better webpages, but so would the rest of the world. These webpages are one of the few sources we have for understanding life in North Korea, and I personally want to encourage the North Koreans to fill them with high quality and easy to access content. Currently, they simply don't have enough skilled programmers capable of performing these tasks.

IMHO, this is a clear example of how teaching computer science benefits both the North Koreans and Americans without improving North Korean hacking skills.

Going through the translated page of - http://www.kcna.kp (North Korea's main state run newspaper). So many news articles start with "Beloved Highest leader", "Beloved Supreme Leader" etc. Such a stereotypical NK propaganda. Is this the main source of news in North Korea? I cannot imagine life under North Korean regime. But seems like you had a great time there. Were you free to move anywhere you want in North Korea or were there guides with you?

Would you mind answering my questions? I would appreciate it.

Bizarre accent... almost like American actors trying to sound like Russian submariners:

https://youtu.be/PBHYbeg2nao