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Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by egeozcan on Friday November 15, 2019 @02:39AM (#21543030)
I'm living in Germany, the bank account of my neighbor in Commerzbank was closed because he wrote "hooker money" in description when sending money to one of his friends. At least that's what we believe because they refused to explain why. He could easily open another account in Volksbank and according to him, when the new account manager asked and learned why his previous account was closed, they had a pretty good laugh.

I used to get "funny" too when sending money through PayPal to friends, never again.

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by alias_neo on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:14AM (#21543172)
I've been with my bank for 15+ years. One time I sent a payment of several hundred £s to a friend who's paid my share of a holiday when booking.

In the description I put "fun times". I had a call from my bank asking me to explain the payment the next day. I've never been called before nor since that.

It certainly feels like they're a bit touchy about certain references.

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by MisterTea on Friday November 15, 2019 @07:10AM (#21544184)
> In the description I put "fun times".

I recently started using Venmo to pay a few people and the things I have wrote are awful. Recent examples include: "Human organ trafficking" "Lunch and murder for hire", "sack of shrunken heads" and so on. Let them call me.

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by cpursley on Friday November 15, 2019 @07:32AM (#21544293)
I put "Crimea" in a venmo transfer to my own wife and they will no longer allow me to transfer funds to her.
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by yosito on Saturday November 16, 2019 @05:12PM (#21555293)
I'm American. I went on a trip to Cuba for a free software conference, and someone from the conference borrowed a few Cuban Pesos from me to get some food before going to the airport. Later he sent me USD on Venmo for "Cuban cash transfer" and they threatened to close his account, but he managed to convince them that he was sending me money for lunch at a Cuban restaurant in the US. Ever since then, I'm cautious about descriptions when I Venmo people money.
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by pretendscholar on Saturday November 16, 2019 @11:28AM (#21553412)
For some real fun start quoting koranic poetry and start listing random sites in yemen and pakistan.
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by maxwell on Friday November 15, 2019 @07:22AM (#21544242)
Get ready for your account to be closed suddenly without warning over the next few years.
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by Haga on Friday November 15, 2019 @11:36AM (#21546255)
Never forget.. It's not personal. It's just a process who wants to shed potential liability by applying pressure on individuals involved. Wouldn't be necessary if we had banking secrecy.
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by jstarfish on Friday November 15, 2019 @12:39PM (#21546864)
Vice did a writeup where a reporter did this just to see what happened and it ended with the associated funds effectively seized.

Maybe they've gotten more permissive but don't do this with money you can't afford to lose.

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by wyclif on Sunday November 17, 2019 @12:57AM (#21556746)
I'm an American and so I totally get what you're saying and in principle you're absolutely right, but that's not the way I roll anymore.

I want to be as under the radar as I can be when it comes to stuff like this. My attitude is that the bank already knows too much about me, why give them more rope?

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by raxxorrax on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:40AM (#21543286)
At that moment you should have made it clear that it isn't his business at all to disincenitivise future bad behavior. Even as a lazy person I probably would have switched banks.
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by nothrabannosir on Friday November 15, 2019 @06:37AM (#21544054)
It is; the UK has very strict KYC laws and any institution handling money is quickly on the hook for certain misdeeds by their customers. They need to show diligence in monitoring that activity.

> You must meet certain day-to-day responsibilities if your business is covered by the Money Laundering Regulations. These include carrying out ‘customer due diligence’ measures to check that your customers are who they say they are, and risk assessing your business.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/money-laundering-regulations-you...

(That entire page, like the rest of gov.uk, is comprehensive and very accessible to read for a layman. If you have any passing interest in the area I recommend giving it a skim.)

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by alias_neo on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:45AM (#21543314)
In hindsight, I probably should have switched banks, but ~~15+ years ago~~ I was young enough that it mattered very little to my sense of principle.

They've otherwise been quite reliable since so jumping ship now would almost be asking for trouble.

Edit: It wasnt 15 years ago this happened, it was perhaps a decade. I'd already been a customer for some time.

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by merpnderp on Friday November 15, 2019 @08:31AM (#21544583)
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by ksaj on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:46PM (#21549109)
> It certainly feels like they're a bit touchy about certain references.

I'd say they quite overstepped the boundaries. What are fun times to you and the recipient is certainly not their business. Why would they even waste time reading the RE line if they aren't doing your accounting for you at the same time?

There is even a party rental company named Fun Times. Would they interrogate every cheque written to/from them?

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by alias_neo on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:51PM (#21549543)
I'm really not sure. Perhaps it was flagged as unusual and they looked, saw the reference and then questioned it?
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by bloogsy on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:00AM (#21543652)
It could also be that they're worried about money laundering, or there's someone a little bit keen behind the scenes.
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by pgeorgi on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:57AM (#21543369)
The law in question was established in 2016 and it calls for a special type of bank account ("Basiskonto") to be made available to all[0]. So the story could predate the law or (which is quite likely) the account might be a regular account, not the fallback.

[0] Conditions apply: A bank isn't forced to do business with somebody who defrauded them in the last 3 years, for example. But the decision must be made timely (10 days), it must be explained and there's a well-defined path to legal review. Details at https://www.bafin.de/DE/Verbraucher/Bank/Produkte/Basiskonto...

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by pepesza on Friday November 15, 2019 @09:13AM (#21544903)
Don't give them any info. Write something along the lines of "transfer of money", always. Use separate channel to communicate "why". Every bit of information you give them will be used against you.
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by sjoebergco on Friday November 15, 2019 @09:56AM (#21545272)
Traditional banking customers are still just a policy change away from a locked account tho. Hard to avoid with current systems.
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by black_puppydog on Friday November 15, 2019 @09:43AM (#21545155)
including suspicious non-disclosure of the actual "why"...
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by pluma on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:43AM (#21543835)
Generally the advice in Germany is not to use "funny" descriptions, but not because the bank might have no sense of humor but because the tax agency might take it literally.

If your friend sends you money "for sexual favors", that might be considered taxable income and you'll find yourself having some explaining to do.

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by toyg on Friday November 15, 2019 @06:08AM (#21543936)
Not just tax authorities, but (more importantly) police ones.

The laws around things like sex work or drug consumptions, in most countries, are full of grey areas and willfully-contradictory positions (e.g. one can buy but the other can't sell, etc). So as soon as a transaction is categorised as part of a "problematic" economy, then police can get involved. If your bank lets through "hooker money" unchallenged, the police can eventually accuse the bank of facilitating activities which might be, at some level, criminal.

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by pdpi on Friday November 15, 2019 @06:23AM (#21544000)
> willfully-contradictory positions (e.g. one can buy but the other can't sell, etc).

This seems weird, but is actually a perfectly reasonable legal regime that's all about power dynamics and enabling the authorities to approach people. Drug users and prostitutes are in much more vulnerable positions than drug dealers and johns respectively.

If you make selling drugs a crime, but not buying/owning those same drugs, now the police can approach addicts much more easily, and get them help (this is the much-lauded Portuguese model).

The same logic applies in reverse to prostitution: if selling sexual favours is legal, but buying is illegal, prostitutes are enabled to report abusive johns to the police, and authorities can approach them much more easily to try and get them off that life too.

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by toyg on Friday November 15, 2019 @10:40AM (#21545692)
This is the rationalisation of a legal kludge that is only necessary to assuage consciences that the state has not become "immoral".

The facts on the ground are that, dissuasion or not, these economies will never go away ("oldest profession", after all). Full legalisation would allow for complete oversight of such murky sectors, which would ensure everyone's safety better than the current arrangements, at all levels. For example, in many countries there is no way for prostitutes to legally ensure their own security, because any sort of professional relationship with a sex-worker is illegal (even if the business itself is not); at that point, whether they have recourse post-abuse or not, is basically irrelevant.

The legal situation around cannabis and prostitution is just a shitshow in most places, driven as it is by outdated sensibilities which have ossified through short-term political calculation. There is no point trying to find in it a logic that is simply not there.

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by pdpi on Friday November 15, 2019 @11:19AM (#21546074)
I agree that prostitution should be legalised and regulated to make it safer for everybody involved (because I too don't think it'll ever go away). Cannabis? Probably — I don't know that it's that much worse than tobacco.

Full-on legalisation is not universally desirable, though — there's always heroine, cocaine, crack, meth... — and the asymmetric legality thing is still a very useful tool in those circumstances.

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by Zak on Friday November 15, 2019 @12:47PM (#21546928)
I would argue, from a pure cost-benefit perspective that full legalization of drugs is desirable unless someone has another credible plan for eliminating the black market without unacceptable consequences (e.g. a police state).
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by ClumsyPilot on Saturday November 16, 2019 @07:31PM (#21555821)
What's needed is evidence based approach, where wt draw a line at alcohol and all drugs less lethal/ addictive/ harmful (take your pick) are legalised.

There are some truly horrible substances, but with current approach heroin and weed are sold by the same guy.

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by takeda on Sunday November 17, 2019 @01:19AM (#21556789)
The thing is that if it was really a payment for an illegal activity, who actually would write the truth in the description?
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by pluma on Sunday November 17, 2019 @08:06PM (#21561166)
Prostitution is legal in Germany but it is regulated and money made from it is taxable income.

Also famously you do have to pay taxes on illegal income, otherwise the income is both illegal and tax fraud.

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by anilakar on Friday November 15, 2019 @05:42AM (#21543830)
Banks in EU are forced to monitor their customers' transactions. I think it's one of the ways to comply with anti-laundering and anti-gray market laws.

Last year there was a news article about someone getting a phone call from the bank because the description in a money transfer contained the substring "ISIL".

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by jotm on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:56AM (#21543367)
But even paying a hooker would be legal in Germany?
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by blkhawk on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:03AM (#21543399)
yes, why wouldn't it be?
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by jotm on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:06AM (#21543420)
So that couldn't have been the reason for account closure, I meant :)
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by mtrovo on Friday November 15, 2019 @04:27AM (#21543514)
Don’t know if it’s only in Germany but banks here don’t need to give you any reason to close your account. There are some stories of how every time they tweak N26 Risk ML there’s a wave of termination letters to customers that didn’t do anything wrong. A bunch of friends got affected by this a while a go, they didn’t do anything wrong and the bank refused to give any reason at all for the termination.
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by salawat on Friday November 15, 2019 @12:20PM (#21546662)
This is actually a consequence of what neural network based ML actually does.

Machine learning is actually a misnomer. A more accurate term is function interpolation.

Let's say I have a training set of 5000 samples.

When I kick off the training process, I'm basically telling the NN run until it simulates a function that yields the desired response in those 5000 cases.

The rub of course, is that programs aren't only defined by what they do (yielding the appropriate response for the the training cases) but also by what they don't do (excessive false positive/negative generation outside the training dataset). Performing correctly on the training, but messing up on more general tasks (the human equivalent being becoming an excellent test taker, but a lousy practitioner) is called overfishing. A more broad subclass of overfishing that van occur would be undesired/discriminatory/illegal optimizations, such as using combinations of protected classes as a significant data point in coming to a determination.

There is no guarantee for any particular training session that you'll arrive at the same weights, or that that set of weights will cover the same set of things that the previous network did. I.e. Your network can make mistakes (just like a person).

The irony in all of this, is you're basically training a machine to simulate a human doing a task in reliability/consistency (admittedly without the constraints of interacting with the world through a human body) with all the volatility between training that just being a human from day to day introduces.

I'm honestly beginning to wonder if the push for machine learning adoption isn't anything more than the market trying to replace people with models that they don't have to pay benefits for, and onto which they can pass blame trivially because, "Of course we didn't make it to discriminate! There's no way we could have known it would do that ahead of time!"

Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by Crinus on Friday November 15, 2019 @07:14AM (#21544200)
Does closing your account also mean you lose your money or they give it to you somehow?
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by r3drock on Saturday November 16, 2019 @09:11PM (#21556137)
They must give it to you.
Re:PayPal stops payouts to models on Pornhub by petre on Friday November 15, 2019 @03:04AM (#21543137)
The financial industry has no sense of humor.