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Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by MuffinFlavored on Monday November 04, 2019 @12:50PM (#21444206)
Why is the government itching to break up tech companies? I feel like it's a bad idea for them to get involved at all.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by pron on Monday November 04, 2019 @12:53PM (#21444263)
Because democratic societies generally dislike so much power concentrated in the hands of undemocratic institutions.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by dmix on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:12PM (#21444502)
Anti-trust laws are there for economic reasons, ie, monopolies preventing competition leaving society worse-off as a whole than can be gained from efficiencies of a single organization. It also typically requires proof of anti-competitive behaviour, beyond just being the biggest in the market.

A lot of companies dominate their markets but don't engage in overt anti-competitive behaviour.

I don't think they've ever been enforced to serve some political end, like punishing companies for not serving some greater democratic purpose to appease the political parties.

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by zaphod4prez on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:53PM (#21445006)
Your last sentence does not seem right to me, and it also seems to be phrased in a disingenuous way. "punishing companies for not serving some greater democratic service" is a very weird way to describe a legitimate worry about consolidation of private power (which, by the way, has a very long history).

Of course, healthy competition & pricing is a core issue here (duh). But power, in all its forms, is also a key issue. The founding fathers were very concerned about a corporation gaining too much power and interfering with democracy [1].

In addition, Facebook is constantly engaged in anti-competitive and unacceptable behavior, including buying multiple competitors (anti-competitive) and lying about its product (the recent inflated-ad-views scandal, which was literally a scam). The antitrust case against fb is complicated by the nature of the business, but there are plenty of very good reasons for the gov to investigate fb for antitrust violations [2].

Matt Stoller has done some good writing on monopoly, so has Binyamin Appelbaum. Both of them have books worth reading.

[1]: In 1816, Thomas Jefferson, principal author of the Declaration of Independence, said he hoped to "crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." (https://www.stamfordadvocate.com/local/article/Angela-Carell...)

[2]: https://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?art...

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by bduerst on Monday November 04, 2019 @04:15PM (#21446585)
Hey, Thomas Jefferson also said, "The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground."

Like many of Jefferson's quotes, this one and yours are both out of context, with yours being in reference to a wealthy elite dodging taxes illegally. That context is a bit different than wanting the government breaking up a social media company because you disagree with it's methods of managing free speech.

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by pron on Monday November 04, 2019 @05:16PM (#21447157)
Government is put in opposition to liberty not because it's called government, but because it holds a lot of power, and any concentration of power limits liberty, whether it's in the hands of government or corporations. At least the government is accountable (in principle) to the electorate and not to a board of directors.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by sspyder on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @02:56AM (#21450499)
The founding fathers were also very opposed to a two party system.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by analogtsar on Monday November 04, 2019 @04:34PM (#21446745)
You h types
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by vkou on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:25PM (#21444648)
Yours is a very US-centric viewpoint.

The US sees anti-trust as necessary when consumers are negatively impacted. The EU sees anti-trust as necessary when producers are negatively impacted.

The latter is, of course, always colored by politics.

I will also note that the nature of the social network market, with its network effects, means that a large enough system with a closed API is, under those constraints, by definition anti-competitive - certainly to producers, and possibly to consumers.

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by filoleg on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:50PM (#21446364)
>The US sees anti-trust as necessary when consumers are negatively impacted. The EU sees anti-trust as necessary when producers are negatively impacted.

This statement is interesting, considering what it implies about the purpose of existence of producers for each respective side. With this stance, US is more like "producers exist to satisfy needs of customers", while EU is "producers exist just to compete with each other".

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by vkou on Monday November 04, 2019 @04:22PM (#21446642)
The EU, roughly, sees producers as a vehicle that exists to create jobs, and thus create prosperity for their employees.

Once basic life needs are met, optimizing for customers tends to only good for someone who is living off their savings/welfare/etc. Optimizing for employees is good if you, like the majority of the people on Earth, have to work for a living, or are supported by someone who has to work for a living.

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by philwelch on Monday November 04, 2019 @05:19PM (#21447183)
Even in America, often producers wield more political power than consumers. Farm policies are often dictated by the interests of farmers more than the interests of people who eat food. Tariffs have traditionally been a mechanism to protect domestic producers at the expense of domestic consumers. Immigration provides economic benefits but some of these come at the expense of individual workers who face more competition. Even defense policy is affected: decisions are largely driven by the goal of creating or protecting jobs in particular states and districts rather than by the actual needs of the military.

Everybody eats food, pays taxes, pays tariffs, and benefits from the protection of the military, but 300 million people who pay marginally fewer taxes and tariffs, eat marginally cheaper food, and enjoy the defense of a marginally more effective and efficient military are often "outvoted" by geographic concentrations of tens of thousands of people who have substantial vested interests.

Given this inherent bias in democracy, I think it makes sense for policy to at least try to favor the consumer over the producer, just because producers do a good job taking care of themselves already.

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by TazeTSchnitzel on Monday November 04, 2019 @07:52PM (#21448518)
> It also typically requires proof of anti-competitive behaviour, beyond just being the biggest in the market.

That wasn't always true. The US was once fond of trust- busting.

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by unethical_ban on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:27PM (#21444665)
We've never had communications platforms so centralized, nor had comms companies with so much editorial control over peoples' exposure to information.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by x220 on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:19PM (#21445327)
The United States Postal Service? Although it's illegal for them to open mail without a specific warrant.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by qubex on Monday November 04, 2019 @05:26PM (#21447270)
The USPS is my go-to example of why “Net Neutrality” is a requirement for communication.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by GhettoMaestro on Monday November 04, 2019 @11:25PM (#21449598)
The USPS mail service is frankly bullshit. It exists to spam the hell out of you.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by x220 on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @12:59AM (#21450040)
it actually exists to guarantee service of court documents and government records. Without it the courts and government couldn't function properly. it's so vital that the USPS has their own police force that punishes mail crime. Once I got a piece of mail about a postal worker who stole a $20 gift card in route to me. She got sentenced to several years in jail. I'd sooner screw with the IRS than the postal service.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by qubex on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @06:23AM (#21451370)
How narrow-sighted can you be?! The USPS is the latest incarnation in a lineage of postal services that go back centuries and that for many generations served as a neutral, transparent, reliable, and capillary means of allowing epistolary contact between individuals.

Note: I’m not American, I’m not in the USA, but this applies to most postal services worldwide.

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by GhettoMaestro on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @10:20AM (#21453104)
USPS disallows 3rd party Mail aggregation and sorting / scanning services.

Why? The biggest USPS customer base (unsolicited bulk mail) got pissed.

If you saw how much spam I get via snail mail maybe you’d understand a little more.

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by soperj on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:33PM (#21444757)
AT&T?
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by unethical_ban on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:48PM (#21444942)
>editorial control

And as mentioned elsewhere, it was broken up, and then allowed to recongeal.

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by layoutIfNeeded on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:40PM (#21444842)
Which was broken up in 1984 via antitrust regulation?
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by soperj on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:01PM (#21445100)
Responding to this specifically:

>We've never had communications platforms so centralized

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by Shivetya on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:31PM (#21444722)
because politicians dislike it and scare their constituents and others into the same mode of thought. why can't we apply the same mindset to government because you have to be kidding yourself if you believe it is a democratic institution.

Oh sure you may have the option to elect a few select people at different levels but the vast majority is not subject to your whims or even large groups of people.

the reason is simple, in facebook's case and other companies which provide people a new way to assemble is that politicians do not control the message and that is intolerable to many of them. they pretty much had the news industry in their back pocket for generations but the internet blew that away when anyone could be the news.

so don't subscribe to these fear tactics that big bad companies are taking our privacy and freedom, government is just jealous because it has all that and never had to share

[dead]
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by filoleg on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:02PM (#21445115)
Just because someone disagrees with you while bringing up a pretty compelling point, they are definitely a shill.

Also, I believe your comment is in violation of the guidelines: "Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken." and "Don't be snarky. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."[0]

0. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by so_tobeclear on Monday November 04, 2019 @04:34PM (#21446748)
For you then, I believe the above comment to be not only uncompelling but also disingenuous
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by cameronbrown on Monday November 04, 2019 @05:02PM (#21447017)
I mean, I personally agree with said comment. Would love to hear your perspective beyond "this comment is wrong".
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by so_tobeclear on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @05:44PM (#21457579)
This isn't a matter of right or wrong. Moreover that's not what I've expressed. The comment hasn't garnered any attention from anyone discussing this topic seriously and I should follow suit BR
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by cameronbrown on Wednesday November 06, 2019 @03:50AM (#21460757)
You don't believe it's not at a possibility that politicians dislike losing control over their message?
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by asjw on Thursday November 07, 2019 @10:32AM (#21474050)
I believe ginormous agglomerates of money and power backed by predatory (and probably with criminal intent) capital investors, with no other ethics than make money in any possible way are the root of all evil, politicians are just elected representatives of the people and live only a few decades.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by baby on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:07PM (#21444428)
Seeing something similar happening in China (CEOs of companies that get large are stepping down and being replaced by party members), I wonder if the US model is similarly threatened by large companies.

If you think about it, corruption is legal in the US through lobbies, and the larger and more powerful a company is, the easier it is for the company to influence policies and how the country is being run.

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by thedudeabides5 on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:11PM (#21445931)
"If you think about it, corruption is legal in the US through lobbies"

Well, whether we go so far as to say lobby = corruption, I think the idea is to bring more transparency and accountability to the general problem.

Any society with free movement of capital is going to have issues with accumulated economic capital impacting politics.

A democratic republic such as the USA hopes to address this issue by formalizing the channels the public can access the government.

Right now I'd give us a 5/10 on that scale.

Where's China on that scale? I don't have enough info to say...

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by MiroF on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:29PM (#21444699)
Pretty much every major republican thinker (and by republican I mean in the tradition of republicanism, not the political party) has discussed the problem that these concentrations of wealth/power have for stable societies.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by philwelch on Monday November 04, 2019 @05:23PM (#21447231)
Most historical republics were defined and explicitly ruled by concentrations of wealth and power--Rome, Venice, Florence, Genoa, the Hanseatic League.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by robbrown451 on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:57PM (#21445763)
Because many voters think that they would be better off if the government enforced antitrust law more strongly in this area.

Most agree it was effective when the government broke up Standard Oil, and when they broke up AT&T, among others. Microsoft was not broken up (although it got really close), but they sure got a slap, partly from the EU. And they changed their behavior, rather dramatically, for the better in the years since.

The idea being that more competition is better.

I think the first question you should be asking is "why do free market economies need antitrust enforcement?" And then take it from there.

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by qubex on Monday November 04, 2019 @05:32PM (#21447342)
The reason why the EU “slapped” Microsoft is instructive though: in a nutshell, the argument was as follows: it is so big that it can crowd out other smaller competitors because it can offer products for almost free (because their marginal cost is basically zero) whereas starting up and/or sustaining a small competitor (perhaps with a subset of functionality, for a lower TCO) is more expensive. Since producers are (as remarked elsewhere) seen as “vehicles for job creation”, this is a net negative.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by robbrown451 on Monday November 04, 2019 @08:15PM (#21448663)
Yeah and it is also a net negative for consumers if the big company offering things for almost free stops innovating once their competition goes away.

Personally I think that free markets just don't work with products that are zero marginal cost. I don't necessarily have a solution, but it sure seems like the rules just don't work well anymore.

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by onlyrealcuzzo on Monday November 04, 2019 @09:04PM (#21448938)
I wish there was a corporate progressive tax, such that if you're business profit is between $0-$1M you pay no tax, and once your income gets into the tens of billions (in profit), the effective tax rate is over 50%. The big companies would just break themselves up to take advantage of the taxes.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by legitster on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:10PM (#21444471)
Tech companies in particular have very concentrated employee bases - there is a lot of incentive to grandstand against them if your constituency doesn't get many benefits, especially if that constituency comes from places that don't have much in the way of technical literacy.

Still, breaking up any company for being too successful is a great way to keep your economy from growing. I don't imagine sane politicians will actually follow through, especially since breaking up trusts in the past did almost nothing to help the consumers it was supposed to.

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by Roodgorf on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:43PM (#21444882)
Saying that the reason FB is being targeted for anti-trust is that they are simply too successful feels like a vast oversimplification of the situation.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by legitster on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:47PM (#21444925)
True, but I hear these conversations brought up against every tech company, regardless of what they are doing or why. Amputation may be a valid prescription for a patient, but if amputation is always the prescription, I may assume we are diagnosing wrongly.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by trowawee on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:03PM (#21445124)
No you don't. No one is pushing to break up Basecamp, or LinkedIn, or even companies that have actual documented histories of anticompetitive practices, like Oracle. I haven't even heard much chatter about breaking up Apple, altho that might ramp up as they move farther away from hardware into services and other areas. The conversation centers around FB, Google, and Amazon, for reasons that are unique to each of them.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by zepto on Monday November 04, 2019 @07:09PM (#21448212)
Elizabeth Warren has officially listed Apple as a company to break up.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by kens on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:32PM (#21446168)
Are you saying that breaking up the company is always the action from an antitrust case? That's entirely wrong. See for instance the antitrust actions against IBM leading to the 1936 consent decree and the 1956 consent decree, which changed IBM's behavior but didn't break up the company.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by notfromhere on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:27PM (#21444673)
Breaking up trusts definitely helped - its the concentration of wealth and non-existent trust enforcement why there's so much consolidation and market concentration in a handful of firms.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by legitster on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:44PM (#21444894)
Breaking up Microsoft didn't necessarily help any competitors, but it definitely made their products worse. Breaking up Bell turned one giant monopoly (with a well funded research division that drove innovation) into a bunch of regional monopolies that didn't necessarily drive better consumer outcomes.

Trustbusting is a very blunt instrument and there's not much data that it actually drives the results it intends. It would be better to address the market conditions that drive the industry to a monopoly.

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by debaserab2 on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:04PM (#21445136)
Breaking up Microsoft absolutely helped their competitors, but not in the PC software market. There was a time when Windows tightly integrated Internet Explorer throughout the operating system to the point that using a different browser was a hassle (and would never be done by their general audience). Microsoft subverted and contorted as many industry standards as they felt like it as they attempted to turn the internet into their own walled garden right from the start. The antitrust rulings that were made undid the clamped down version of the internet that Microsoft was trying to build. I highly doubt consumers would have somehow been better off the last two decades if this ruling wasn't made.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by notfromhere on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:03PM (#21445130)
the nature of capitalist competition means that in the long-term markets will consolidate.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by notatoad on Monday November 04, 2019 @12:52PM (#21444247)
as the power of the big tech companies approach the power of the government, governments are naturally going to seek to limit their power.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by MuffinFlavored on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:53PM (#21445009)
Can you elaborate how Facebook/Instagram/Twitter/WhatsApp/Google/Microsoft/Apple are approaching power levels of the government?

I know that Facebook + Twitter political ads are "powerful", as well as "fake news" spreading when it is relates to politics. I'd be curious to hear any other examples if you have them.

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by goatinaboat on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:10PM (#21445220)
how Facebook/Instagram/Twitter/WhatsApp/Google/Microsoft/Apple are approaching power levels of the government?

Remember Twitter gloating about its role in the Arab Spring? They’re a psychological weapon that can overturn societies overnight. And they’ll do it just for a few more ad clicks.

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by celim307 on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:30PM (#21446134)
Not to mention Facebook's libra. The government doesn't look too kindly on you subverting its main method of influence
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by duncan-donuts on Monday November 04, 2019 @12:53PM (#21444256)
Seems like the common theme is they own too much data on us and it’s not clear that any number of apps might just be a subsidiary of a larger org.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by kumarvvr on Tuesday November 05, 2019 @03:28AM (#21450628)
It's because FB has enormous power in influencing who becomes part of the government.

Keeping aside the question whether FB should be broken up or not, having such power is incredibly dangerous. And they brought it upon themselves, by making a big push for being the primary conduit for all aspects of people's lives, Friends, Family, Events, News, Opinion, Shopping, etc.

edit: Spelling

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by hellofunk on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:01PM (#21444352)
If they are undermining the fundamental purpose of government, then why wouldn’t the government want to do something about it?
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by ummonk on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:57PM (#21445052)
It isn’t. Some political candidates are.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by pengstrom on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:11PM (#21444484)
Why is that? Do you have an alternative?
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by z3ncyberpunk on Monday November 04, 2019 @01:08PM (#21444437)
It's a bad idea for them NOT to get involved.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by ForHackernews on Monday November 04, 2019 @12:54PM (#21444267)
Because big tech companies are now at the point where they can pick the winners in democratic elections, if they choose to do so.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by filoleg on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:08PM (#21445195)
Really? Doesn't seem like it worked out well for them during the last elections, given that people like Dustin Moskowitz and Larry Page were directly supporting and assisting the DNC campaign (with others assisting the campaign less directly).
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by ForHackernews on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:41PM (#21445575)
I'm not claiming they've deliberately swung elections yet. But do you doubt Facebook or Google could easily do it? They self-evidently have the data needed to identify swing voters in key districts and the reach to control a large part of the media those people are exposed to.

If they haven't done it (yet), it's only because they've decided not to (so far).

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by x220 on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:15PM (#21445274)
Google[1] and Facebook[2] have sponsored the Republican party. Both have accepted ad contracts from Republican candidates.

[1] https://www.politico.com/story/2016/04/google-gop-convention... [2] https://fortune.com/2016/05/07/facebook-confirms-it-will-spo...

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by filoleg on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:32PM (#21445469)
They accepted ad contracts from both sides, while the leadership directly supported DNC. The pendulum was definitely on the DNC side when it came to support from tech companies.

Just because they were giving some support to the Republican party, doesn't disprove my assertion at all.

Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by x220 on Monday November 04, 2019 @02:41PM (#21445577)
What is your assertion?
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by filoleg on Monday November 04, 2019 @03:44PM (#21446301)
My assertion is that "tech companies can choose the winners of the election" is an extremely over-exaggerated statement that holds no basis in reality. Some of the most powerful people in tech industry openly sided with and assisted DNC, and yet they lost the election. Yes, they sold ads to both sides, but the level of support (direct and indirect) that DNC received from big tech was incomparable to that of the Republican party.
Re:Designing the Facebook Company Brand by x220 on Monday November 04, 2019 @06:01PM (#21447622)
I don't think anyone implied that Facebook et al. tried in earnest to sway the election. Facebook execs endorsed candidates and donated money to campaigns or PACs but that's the routine for any company that has a stake in politics. If Facebook wanted to, they could invisibly change the content recommendation algorithm on facebook dot com to only show negative news about the wrong candidate (or 90% negative) and only show positive news about the right candidate. They could have also made up excuses to ban right or left wing figures from facebook dot com. Stuff like that is possible to accomplish and get away with, but Zuckerberg was merciful to us this time.