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Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by baroffoos on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @01:35AM (#21384466)
>While we accept to be killed by our own mistakes at the wheel, society (we) will not accept that a machine makes the same

Ideally we should not be accepting either. It is outrageous how many people we allow to be killed regularly for slightly more comfortable transport.

Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by TheSpiceIsLife on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @02:11AM (#21384605)
> slightly more comfortable transport.

Slightly more comfortable than what? Horses? Bicycles? Walking?

There were 158,493 registered deaths in Australia in 2018, [1] of which 1137 were due to motor vehicle accidents [1].

Motor vehicle related deaths don't even rate in the top 20 causes of death. [also 1]

The rate of motor vehicle related deaths in Australia peaked in 1970 at 30.4 per 100,000 population per year, and has been on a steady decline since and now sits at 4.6 per 100,000 per year.[2]

This seems reasonable to me.

1. https://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/[email protected]/0/47E19CA15036B04BC...

2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_motor_vehicle_deaths_i...

Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by michaelt on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @06:16AM (#21385552)
> Motor vehicle related deaths don't even rate in the top 20 causes of death.

According to [1] in the US road traffic accidents are the 17th-most-common cause of death across all age ranges.

But among 15-24 year olds? Number 1 cause of death. In fact you have to reach age 45 before road traffic accidents are even outside the top five.

If you really want to ramp up the rhetoric, compare road deaths to mass shootings and September 11th. Where's the trillion-dollar invasion of Detroit to overthrow the Drivetrain Of Evil?

[1] https://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa-cause-of-death-by-ag...

Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by rootusrootus on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @01:02PM (#21389421)
> compare road deaths to mass shootings

Well, if we are going to do that, we need to compare the utility of those mass shootings compared to the utility of a car.

Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by francisofascii on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @09:37AM (#21386961)
Right. And you are just looking at deaths. The injury rates are much higher. And crash injuries can be debilitating. Certainly the #1 threat to health in the U.S.
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by Steltek on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @10:32AM (#21387567)
And about the other causes of death, I want to see how driving correlates with obesity and heart disease. Then throw in depression and mental anguish that's endemic in the rush hour commute. Sitting for 3 hours in a car versus walking a little more and taking the bus sounds like a really bad trade for your health.
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by varjag on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @04:23AM (#21385083)
How about the deaths not related to biology/age of your body?

It should really be compared with other accidents. Cyclist deaths, bathtub drownings, slipping on banana peels. Choking on food perhaps. Have the feeling it would rank pretty high in its cohort.

Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by megablast on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @06:37AM (#21385641)
Ok, lets not forget the 40,000 seriously injured or disabled every year in Australia.

> Slightly more comfortable than what? Horses? Bicycles? Walking?

Buses, trains, trams, scooters, many other ways.

71% of Aussies live in major cities, and most have no need for a car. Yet we are one of the most car addicted people in the world. Billions wasted every year on this. Ridiculous.

Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by glangdale on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @07:14AM (#21385839)
It is a shame that while the the first link has a table of Years of Potential Life Lost, it only counts things that made it into the Top 20 (so it just rearranges things - obviously suicide shoots to the #1 and dementia falls from #2 to way down the list). Road deaths kill on average younger people than most of the items on that Top 20 list.
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by DuskStar on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @01:40AM (#21384488)
Some number of deaths will always occur due to the tradeoffs we make in transportation. We can minimize this number, but even "no cars, no bikes, no trains, no planes, no going outside" would cause deaths due to the lack of things like ambulance or fire services. (and of course if you allow those, someone small number of people will die in crashes)
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by diffeomorphism on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @05:13AM (#21385271)
Ideally, I would like a pony. Realistically there is no alternative option, so there is no question.

> for slightly more comfortable transport

In some large metro areas, maybe. Outside of that bubble millions of people depend on a car to even be able to work.

Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by Steltek on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @10:39AM (#21387638)
Large metro areas effectively subsidize the rural areas. Those millions of people have enjoyed amazingly subsidized civil engineering to have that car commute. If those commutes built-in the correct costs in land usage, gov budget impact, and environmental impact, those commutes would be untenable.
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by catalogia on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @12:35PM (#21389071)
Without populated rural areas to support them, people in cities would start cannibalizing each other within weeks. You seem to have a lot of disdain for people that make your urban lifestyle possible.
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by francisofascii on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @01:05PM (#21389452)
OP is referring to people who live in a rural area but commute to/from a city. Sounds like you are talking about farmers.
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by catalogia on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @04:40PM (#21391748)
Such people are participants in the communities they live in. They pay taxes and patronize local businesses. Often the spouses of commuters work in the local community for those local businesses or the local government. The spouse of the city commuter he despises might well be the best English teacher at the local highschool the farmer sends his children too. The children of a commuter might be the friends of the children of a farmer, and often as teenagers will work for some of those farmers. Beyond economic participation, commuters and their families participate in local clubs and churches which benefit those farmers as much as anybody.

By singling out an economically and socially productive segment of rural communities to attack, he is in fact attacking those communities as a whole.

(Incidentally, it's not just a matter of food. Where do you think the concrete, asphalt and timber cities are made out of comes from? I've not seen many quarries or forests in major cities. Rural communities as a whole, not just farmers specifically, make urban life possible.)

Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by diffeomorphism on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @11:04AM (#21387927)
You missed the phrases "flyover states" and insulting people as rednecks and hillbillies.
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by Steltek on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @12:39PM (#21389113)
You're accusing me of a bias that does not exist. If you want to live in the country with a different taste of personal freedom, please be my guest. However, it comes with a cost that has been ignored for too long.

Personally, I view a city that is safe from cars as the greater freedom. It means my children can walk to school/friends/store without the very real danger of being killed. Cars are the number one cause of death for children.

Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by rootusrootus on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @01:04PM (#21389436)
Large metro areas also include an incredibly large proportion of suburban homes where people absolutely continue to rely on cars.
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by Steltek on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @01:13PM (#21389534)
A suburban area that likely expanded because of 1950's highways that bored through the downtowns of cities, displacing thousands. Streetcar Suburbs, predating car oriented development, are way more walkable and not car dependent.
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by rootusrootus on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @02:34PM (#21390559)
That may be true in many cases. But I distinctly remember some of the highways that were built in Portland, and they bulldozed existing suburban neighborhoods to do it. This city was basically one big suburb well before someone had the bright idea to build I-5 through downtown. Heck, almost all of the [residential] tall buildings in the downtown area were built well after the freeway was built.

We have an urban growth boundary now which tries to limit further sprawl, but it can't change the fact that the Portland metro area is 2 million people most of whom live in single-family homes, or maybe low density suburban apartment complexes.

Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by rayiner on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @02:13AM (#21384612)
Cars are way more comfortable and more convenient than public transit. Working Parisians who take transit spend 113 minutes a day commuting: https://www.thelocal.fr/20160418/parisians-spend-23-days-a-y...

DC, where most people drive, averages about 70 minutes.

Commuters in Dallas, where everyone drives, spend just 54 minutes a day commuting: https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/houston/article/Hou...

Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by jcranmer on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @10:06AM (#21387298)
Speaking from personal experience here, my commute time tolerance is roughly double if I'm commuting by transit versus driving. In other words, a 60 minute trip by transit is roughly as painful as a 30 minute drive. Other people I've talked to have also expressed similar feelings.
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by catalogia on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @12:51PM (#21389268)
Agreed. I'm not some sort of high powered investment banker who measures minutes wasted in thousands of dollars. I'm just a normal guy, trying to take it easy. I'm not in any huge rush to get anywhere if it's not a hospital, and I'd rather "waste" a few minutes getting driven around town by somebody else in somebody else's vehicle than assume the responsibility and risk of driving myself around.

Sometimes transit or walking simply isn't an option, and in those cases I drive. But given the choice, transit might take a bit longer but it's much lower stress. If a kid jumps out in front of the bus and gets run over, that would ruin my day but not my life. If the same happens when I'm driving a car, that's life altering.

There are lower-stake considerations too: the money I spend on bus fares would doubtlessly otherwise be spend on parking; or I would need to schedule enough time to hunt for free parking which just adds more uncertainty and risk to my day.

Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by rhino369 on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @12:20PM (#21388881)
I've found pretty much the opposite. People don't consider public transit unless its clearly the better option.
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by C14L on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @06:29AM (#21385599)
Not sure why you quote average commute times of random cities and what that has to do with comfort of cars v. public transit.

But personally, I prefer to take the subway and read and relax for half an hour before and after work, instead of having to drive in rush hour.

Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by rayiner on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @02:20PM (#21390417)
The subway where? Nowhere dense enough to have good subway service is a place where being in a subway car during rush hour is relaxing. I used to take the 1/2/3 in New York to work. It was hellacious. The only thing worse was the 4/5/6.
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by KaiserPro on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @02:45AM (#21384720)
your implied conclusion is that its better to drive doesn't stand up.

You _can't_ drive to central paris. London you're looking at a £15 charge and a time penalty of ~15-45 minutes.

Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by Fr0styMatt88 on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @04:05AM (#21385010)
Public transport to and from work can be pretty awesome. There’s a lot of stuff you can do, that you wouldn’t be able to do while driving.
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by bluGill on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @09:47AM (#21387071)
Maybe you can, but I get car sick when I try to do anything on the bus. I also spend twice as much time on the bus vs driving - all wasted time because either way I'm staring at the road out the window.
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by rayiner on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @07:02AM (#21385760)
Most jobs aren’t in central Paris.
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by handpanda on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @02:07AM (#21384582)
I think there's an implicit bargain made when you get in a car that a person is driving: you're both risking your lives on this journey. A self-driving car is risking possibly millions of dollars and bad publicity, but not a life. It's hard to trust a computer like that.
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by mlang23 on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @05:41AM (#21385400)
Ultimately, you dont have to trust a computer. You have to trust the corporation that built that computer. That is quite different IMO. How am I supposed to entrust my life to a machine built by a corporation that just recently dropped the slogan "we wont do evil"? How am I going to entrust my life to a machine that has been built by a company that, like all the others, is maily interested in maximising profit margins? Why should I believe they care about my health as an individual? As you said, if I am passenger of a human driver, I can at least hope they dont want to die. If the machine crashes itself, who cares?
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by ghaff on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @06:15AM (#21385544)
You trust corporations all the time to make products, construct buildings, etc. to not kill you when used more or less correctly in accordance with what most people would consider common sense because said companies know they will be sued, fined, etc. if they don’t make safe things. It’s actually unclear what this means in the context of autonomous vehicles that will presumably have some non zero accident rate even if safe enough at some level.
Re:Driverless cars are stuck in a jam by pkulak on Tuesday October 29, 2019 @02:14AM (#21384615)
Which is why the recennt spike in pedestrian and bicycle deaths is even more alarming.