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Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by rimliu on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:40AM (#21289398)
Milk is a very good source of calcium and it has nothing to do with lactose.
Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by vfc1 on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:48AM (#21289431)
Calcium can be easily obtained from plant foods without any problem as well, and in a better form better managed by the human body - https://nutritionfacts.org/topics/calcium/

> "A meta-analysis of cow’s milk intake and hip fracture studies showed no significant protection"

> "milk may sometimes increase bone and hip fracture rates"

Milk and all it's derived products have lactose, so they should be avoided by people that can't digest them properly, which includes, for example, most African Americans and Native Americans among many others.

It's a gradual thing that gets worse with age, you become more and more lactose intolerant. If you find yourself having frequent diarrheas say once a month or so, consider cutting on dairy and see if it improves, you might be slightly lactose intolerant without realizing it.

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by babuskov on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:57AM (#21289973)
You make it sound easy, but let's look at the facts. The link you posted, says you need at least 600 mg of calcium per day. 100g of brocolli has 47mg. So, you would need to eat 1.3kg of brocolli EVERY single day.

Who does that?

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by vfc1 on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:29AM (#21290385)
You don't have to that at all, of course. First of all, nobody really knows how much calcium you really need per day, all those estimates are ballpark estimates at best.

The estimates of 1000mg or more have been pushed for decades by the dairy industry.

You can get calcium from greens like kale etc. eat a bit of brocolli, eat pulses like beans and lentils, use tahini as a sauce, drink fortified plant-milk.

Just eat a well-balanced plant-based diet and you will be absolutely fine. Studies show that plant-based diets don't cause brittle bones at all on the contrary.

You can get all the nutrients that you need, calcium included from a plant-based diet. The only thing you need to supplement is B12, which is produced by bacterias in the dust.

And as everything is so clean, we don't eat a lot of dirt anymore so that its advised to supplement. Animals don't have it too on factory farms, they get injected with it together with the anti-biotics for health reasons.

So might as well take it directly, otherwise calcium is not an issue at all in a plant-based diet and this can and it has been easily shown.

Edit: Check this YouTube playlist on bone health for more info - https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5TLzNi5fYd_ACcY8TDQC...

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by rgbrenner on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:49AM (#21290491)
“ drink fortified plant-milk”

“ You can get all the nutrients that you need, calcium included from a plant-based diet. The only thing you need to supplement is B12”

Plant based milk is fortified with calcium carbonate. You just told us to take a calcium supplement added to a liquid.

That’s admitting it’s not possible to get enough calcium from plants.

With that logic there’s a lot of food we don’t need.. everyone just needs a multivitamin.

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by vfc1 on Friday October 18, 2019 @08:18AM (#21290683)
I don't think you need fortified milk either, but if you are worried about it you can take it, that's what I meant.

There is no indication of lack of calcium in vegetarians or vegans, many studies have shown it.

Most likely, its your expectation of how much calcium is actually needed and how essential dairy is that has been shapped through years of advertising and missinformation.

Actually, its the opposite vegetarians and vegans have usually stronger bones. Dairy has been actually linked to more bone fractures in general - https://nutritionfacts.org/2017/01/31/why-is-milk-consumptio...

Eat a balanced whole food plant-based diet and you will be absolutely fine and actually much healthier in general than with a standard diet.

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by selimthegrim on Friday October 18, 2019 @10:04AM (#21291429)
An RCT for lactose would be good to check those results but I'd also like to see an analysis of possible confounding variables
Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by CathedralBorrow on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:50AM (#21290495)
> Just eat a well-balanced plant-based diet and you will be absolutely fine.

Well that settles it then. Now all we need is to get everyone to do this.

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by Moru on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:17AM (#21289543)
And growing green things is in general more efficient than cows. There was a lot of lobbying going on to get the milk industry to what it is now in western countries.
Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by rimliu on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:46AM (#21289921)
US is not the world, you know.
Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by nkrisc on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:36AM (#21290421)
You think the dairy industry is unique to the US?
Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by Moru on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:54AM (#21289958)
Lobbying is done in the whole world though, where do you see US? Swedish milk lobby is very strong too.
[dead]
Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by Moru on Friday October 18, 2019 @09:56AM (#21291352)
Or facts presented by lobbying money :-)
Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by animal531 on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:14AM (#21289817)
Milk contains a lot of calcium, but scientific studies show that humans barely absorb any of it, especially if pasteurized. Even worse, milk increases calcium loss in bones, resulting in higher rates of fractures.

Modern milk is also a processed food, which brings a host of other negative associated factors.

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by babuskov on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:51AM (#21289946)
> scientific studies show that humans barely absorb any of it, especially if pasteurized

Link?

> Even worse, milk increases calcium loss in bones, resulting in higher rates of fractures.

I would love to read some serious research on this. Some 3-4 years ago I read similar advice, stopped drinking milk for about 5 months and started having serious problems with teeth which I never had before. Started drinking milk again and a month later all the problems disappeared.

People, don't stop drinking milk just because a random person on the Internet said so.

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by ender341341 on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:55AM (#21290249)
not op but found this [1] cause I found it interesting. They found that uht milk had greater bio-availablity compared to traditional pasturization because the traditional pasturization created more maillard reaction byproducts. Didn't find anything comparing those to raw milk though.

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21094734

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by navigatesol on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:22AM (#21290354)
>I would love to read some serious research on this.

Funny you ask for scientific research to support OP's argument, then you follow it up with a personal anecdote about milk fixing your teeth problem in a month (which it assuredly did not).

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by rgbrenner on Friday October 18, 2019 @08:04AM (#21290597)
when you eat and drink acid is produced that eats away at enamel.. and when you brush your teeth it also brushes away some enamel.

The reason your teeth still have enamel is that they are constantly being remineralized with minerals (including calcium) in your saliva being deposited on the top surface of the tooth.

If you consume less calcium, less calcium will be in your saliva, and that’ll slow that process down, while erosion continues normally (leading to sensitivity and eventually cavities)

if the problems he’s referring to are sensitivity (not related to gum disease), and he wasn’t getting enough calcium without milk, it’s quite possible that milk (calcium) reduced the sensitivity.

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by sgift on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:59AM (#21290561)
Nothing funny about it. One makes it clear it's a personal anecdote, the other states that "scientific studies show" - should be easy to show these studies then
Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by GordonS on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:11AM (#21290054)
Curious to know how pasteurisation affects the bioavailability of calcium - do you have sources with more information?
Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by londons_explore on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:44AM (#21289421)
Its also pretty similar to human milk, which has evolved to be a close-to-perfect source of nutrition.
Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by vfc1 on Friday October 18, 2019 @03:53AM (#21289447)
For babies, not for adults. Adult animals in most species can't even drink milk, they can't digest it anymore past infancy.

Biologically this means that the infant would release the mother so that they could have another child, so there is biological adaption on most species to not drink milk past a certain age.

And we have it too via lactose intolerance, which is normal.

However, some relatively small percentage of humans developed the ability to drink milk around 10k years ago in Turkey, but it's not perfect. It gets worse with age as one would expect.

Human babies shouldn't drink cow's milk, it's completely unnecessary and there are questions about it's effect on long-term human health.

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by qaq on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:57AM (#21289743)
There are questions about effects of almost anything on long-term human health. Over-stressing about what to eat like any other type of stress might not be that healthy even in the short term :)
Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by CathedralBorrow on Friday October 18, 2019 @08:35AM (#21290824)
> Human babies shouldn't drink cow's milk, it's completely unnecessary and there are questions about it's effect on long-term human health.

1. According to whom?

2. Can you name a type of food that has zero questions about its effect on long-term human health?

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by gsich on Friday October 18, 2019 @09:26AM (#21291151)
>And we have it too via lactose intolerance, which is normal.

Globally seen yes. Locally it depends. Living in i.e Europe and having lactose intolerance is not normal.

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by anonymousDan on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:23AM (#21289565)
Sorry you're completely scaremongering here. Can you point to any actual evidence to back up your claims?
Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by cariaso on Friday October 18, 2019 @04:41AM (#21289656)
Most of the statements there are reasonably well founded. The specifics of 'Turkey' may be a bit off, but broadly I'd agree with the comment you're replying to.

https://www.snpedia.com/index.php/Lactose_intolerance and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactase_persistence

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by roland00 on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:29AM (#21289863)
Agreed generally but as my own memory of reading these research papers and what wikipedia points out that lactase persistence is not caused by a single gene but there are several different gene variants that can produce this same effect.

And we know since the mid 2000s by a dozen or so genetic studies that these genes did not arrive from a single culture or single timeframe, but are an example of "convergent evolution" aka it was beneficial for humans generally and thus when independent random mutations occurred they persisted longer for those people were more likely to breed and thrive. This happened several times in human history and are not a singular event.

And thus individual humans may have Lactase Persistence in adulthood and other individual humans may not have the persistence. Furthermore how much Lactose you can process with the Lactase enzyme is a dependent process where some people can handle some quantities but not too much quantity of Lactose all at once.

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by dsfyu404ed on Friday October 18, 2019 @08:08AM (#21290628)
>For babies, not for adults.

There's an entire class of people called "children" who are neither babies nor adults who can benefit from drinking milk (or any other good source of calcium).

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by kuu on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:35AM (#21289886)
> Adult animals in most species can't even drink milk, they can't digest it anymore past infancy.

But we're not animals. Animals cannot drive cars (not even the babies!) and we do. We're different than animals in some aspects.

Some of us are able to digest milk

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by nkrisc on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:39AM (#21290437)
The rest of the absurdity of your argument aside, claiming that only humans can do a thing that humans invented solely for themselves to make your point gave me a good chuckle.

We are animals like all the others, even if a percentage of our population evolved the ability to continue to digest milk into adulthood.

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by rimliu on Friday October 18, 2019 @05:44AM (#21289914)
Indeed, "we have evolved to be able to do something, but other species did not, so we should not do it neither" is a very backward argument.
Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by vfc1 on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:58AM (#21290266)
The point was that its actually a very unnatural thing to be doing, and that we only evolved very recently to be able to even do it.

Also, there is a whole spectrum to it. You don't have to be 100% medically diagnosed as lactose intolerant, it might cause you ocasional digestive issues without you even know it.

Like those unexplained, once a month or once every 3 months diarrheas that many of us take as a fact of life, it's actually not normal and might very well be dairy that is causing it for a lot of people.

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by yulaow on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:21AM (#21290352)
Most animals don't eat cooked meat but just raw meat. If you follow that reasoning is very unnatural for us to cook meat, we should switch to raw meat.
Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by vfc1 on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:44AM (#21290465)
The point was that drinking milk is something humans have only very recently in our evolutionary history have adapted to doing, so we are still adapting and a lot of us can't do it very well at all.

At least, a lot of us do it a lot worst than we realize, and there are a ton of people with recurring mild digestive issues which should not be consuming dairy daily at all, but keep doing do due to the public perception that its a healthy thing to do when in fact it's not.

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by DiogenesKynikos on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:30AM (#21290392)
We evolved to do it recently, but lactose tolerance genes have been heavily selected for by evolution. It's one of the most heavily selected-for traits in the past ten thousand years.
Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by vfc1 on Friday October 18, 2019 @07:49AM (#21290493)
Still the majority of the world population is lactose intolerant and should not be consuming dairy at all.

The ones that can digest it, do it usually less well than they think they do. Mild chronic diarrhea is prevalent is western countries, and a degree of dairy intolerance could very well be one of the factors.

It gets worse for most people with age, as elderly people can become lactose intolerant, fully or only slightly. This does not happen overnight, its a progressive thing, many people gradually stop being able to properly digest dairy.

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by DiogenesKynikos on Friday October 18, 2019 @09:05AM (#21291017)
There are different degrees of lactose tolerance, and a good fraction of the world's population is at least somewhat tolerant. Then there are regions of the world where almost all people are completely tolerant, like northern Europe.

There are also lots of dairy products that contain little lactose, from lactose-free milk to cheese. And of course, it's pretty simple to just take lactase pills.

From a completely subjective perspective, dairy products are some of the tastiest foods, and they're objectively a huge part of food culture in Europe. I don't foresee them going away.

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by vfc1 on Friday October 18, 2019 @10:51AM (#21291866)
I don't see them going away either, but I think that it's important that the public realizes that they are completely optional for good health.

But there is this perception that they are absolutely essential due to decades of dairy industry advertising and lobbying, and it's simply not true.

Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by DiogenesKynikos on Friday October 18, 2019 @01:05PM (#21293082)
They're not absolutely essential, but they are very nutritious, which is why the lactose tolerance gene has been so heavily selected for.
Re:Most U.S. Dairy Cows Are Descended From Just Two Bulls by tomclive on Friday October 18, 2019 @06:15AM (#21290075)
Yes, we are animals. We are pretty unique within the animal kingdom but we are still animals.