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Re:Soli by jasonhong on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @12:45PM (#21272443)
I recently showed some videos of Soli in the HCI class I teach. Students immediately hit upon the two major issues I wanted to discuss (I was pretty proud!).

The first is learnability. A big problem with gestures is that there is no clear affordance as to what kinds of gestures you can do, or any clear feedback. For feedback, one could couple Soli's input with a visual display, but at that point, it's not clear if there is a big advantage over a touchscreen, unless the display is really small.

The second is what's known as the Midas touch problem. How can the system differentiate if you are intentionally gesturing as input vs incidentally gesturing? The example I used was the new Mercedes cars that have gesture recognition. While I was doing a test drive, the salesperson started waving his hands as part of his normal speech, and that accidentally raised the volume. Odds are very high Soli will have the same problem. One possibility is to activate Soli via a button, but that would defeat a lot of the purpose of gestures. Another is to use speech to activate, which might work out. Yet another possibility is that you have to do a special gesture "hotword", sort of like how Alexa is activated by saying it's name.

At any rate, these problems are not insurmountable, but it definitely adds to the learning curve, reliability, and overall utility of these gesture based interfaces.

Re:Soli by snewman on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @12:50PM (#21272508)
As predicted in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy: "...an electric pencil flew across the cabin and through the radio's on/off-sensitive airspace."
Re:Soli by cannam on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:05PM (#21273428)
It certainly seems on-point.

"A loud clatter of gunk music flooded through the Heart of Gold cabin as Zaphod searched the sub-etha radio wavebands for news of himself. The machine was rather difficult to operate. For years radios had been operated by means of pressing buttons and turning dials; then as the technology became more sophisticated the controls were made touch-sensitive - you merely had to brush the panels with your fingers; now all you had to do was wave your hand in the general direction of the components and hope. It saved a lot of muscular expenditure of course, but meant that you had to sit infuriatingly still if you wanted to keep listening to the same programme."

This is from 1979 of course.

Re:Soli by james_s_tayler on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @05:58PM (#21276371)
That's uncannily accurate.
Re:Soli by jtmb on Thursday October 17, 2019 @05:02AM (#21280131)
It almost seems like cheating to draw on Douglas Adams, of course he'd be the one to draw out futuristic truths in his droll way.
Re:Soli by dmd on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:30PM (#21272964)
Well, but Trillian did that on purpose specifically to turn off the radio.
Re:Soli by CobrastanJorji on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @05:14PM (#21275806)
Perhaps the computer is smart enough to determine intent. To paraphrase Marvin, "Here I am with a brain the size of a planet and they ask me to determine whether you were gesturing at me on purpose."
Re:Soli by roywiggins on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @09:37PM (#21278164)
Sirius Cybernetics clearly had some ideas along those lines, but the results were lacking:

"He had found a Nutri-Matic machine which had provided him with a plastic cup filled with a liquid that was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea. The way it functioned was very interesting. When the Drink button was pressed it made an instant but highly detailed examination of the subject's taste buds, a spectroscopic examination of the subject's metabolism and then sent tiny experimental signals down the neural pathways to the taste centers of the subject's brain to see what was likely to go down well. However, no one knew quite why it did this because it invariably delivered a cupful of liquid that was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea."

Re:Soli by snewman on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:02PM (#21273386)
Fair point.
Re:Soli by summerlight on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @02:35PM (#21273807)
The second one seems more of a technical one and can be solved if Soli can reliably recognize user attention, which can effectively be a "hotword" for gesture. This is hard and not sure even it's feasible with this tech, but given all the excitements in this thread on potential privacy issues I guess it's doable :D

The first one seems more troublesome. This is less intuitive than touch screen based interface. The only way I see fighting against this is to standardize a set of generic gestures, map onto existing equivalent touch/voice actions and push it to the Android ecosystem. But not sure how many third party manufacturers will join this parade. Does this technology work well under screen? The industry is now obsessed with getting rid of notch and if Soli blocks this path then it will be a pretty hopeless fight.

Re:Soli by eptcyka on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @04:06PM (#21274890)
If you can use a hot-word, what's wrong with using voice recognition to achieve what you want to do anyway? Using voice takes less effort.
Re:Soli by sizzle on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @04:15PM (#21274992)
Absolutely, you can use the same utterances to invoke the same intents in a car from a home setting.

"Alexa, set temperature to <x> degrees"

"Alexa, set volume to <x> or increase/decrease volume"

Re:Soli by gmadsen on Thursday October 17, 2019 @08:18AM (#21281200)
sometimes voice is less appropriate. I would much rather use a gesture than voice command in a library or at work
Re:Soli by TOMDM on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @07:16PM (#21277121)
Snapping my fingers would be a nice trigger, like "ok Google" or "Alexa". Synchronising the sound with the gesture would cut down on the false positive rate, and it's something I'm unlikely to do unless I want to interact with my phone. If it could penetrate my pants pocket, being able to snap my fingers next to my pocket, and then perform simple interactions without having to pick up my phone would be nice. Pick up, hang up, volume etc
Re:Soli by oldmanhorton on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @11:33PM (#21278693)
I would say that snapping is definitely an incidental gesture for some people, and it's also highly inaccessible (while many gesture controls aren't perfectly accessible, audibly snapping is difficult for many more people than those who waving is difficult for)
Re:Soli by TOMDM on Thursday October 17, 2019 @12:57AM (#21279037)
Thinking over this I have to agree.

Not to mention, half the utility of the gestures is the ability to interact with messy/wet hands. Snapping my fingers near my phone in that situation isn't attractive.

Maybe teaching a gesture to your phone is the most accessable option, respects culture and disability the best.

It's a shame though, I did like the intentionality that the sound of snapping fingers afforded.

Re:Soli by flanbiscuit on Thursday October 17, 2019 @09:39AM (#21281919)
Not to mention how annoying it is to start hearing people snapping their fingers everywhere, like in the office or on any mass transit.
Re:Soli by codetrotter on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:57PM (#21274796)
> A big problem with gestures is that there is no clear affordance as to what kinds of gestures you can do, or any clear feedback. For feedback, one could couple Soli's input with a visual display, but at that point, it's not clear if there is a big advantage over a touchscreen, unless the display is really small.

For the Google Pixel 4 that they are using in the video you already have a big display. It can instruct you how to gesture so that you learn it and later it can let you gesture without instructions.

> The second is what's known as the Midas touch problem. How can the system differentiate if you are intentionally gesturing as input vs incidentally gesturing?

Either an activation word like you said, or it could use the front-side camera to see whether or not you are looking at it.

Re:Soli by asdfasgasdgasdg on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @09:59PM (#21278272)
Or, depending how smart it is, and its range, it might detect your head attitude and use that as a proxy for attention. The website claims that it can detect a turn toward, a lean, or a look.
Re:Soli by angleofrepose on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @07:40PM (#21277322)
> A big problem with gestures is that there is no clear affordance as to what kinds of gestures you can do, or any clear feedback > ...learnability

Do you have any examples of well structured learnable systems? I have struggled to find much of anything in this space, yet every technology release I see wants for it.

Here are my two examples, I have no others off the top of my mind. I am more impressed with the vim example.

1. `vim-pandoc-syntax` has a set of documents exampling the feature-set of markdown. These documents are the system they document. Here is one file in a directory of 10 such documents.

https://github.com/vim-pandoc/vim-pandoc-syntax/blob/master/...

2. The KDE shortcuts manager, which lets you see what's bound and bind new things:

https://docs.kde.org/trunk5/en/applications/fundamentals/sho...

I have yet to hear a good response to this question.

I have a Pixel 3 and I want a manual for the device, it appears one does not exist. Nor does documentation. My headphones which came in the box don't resume the most recent media player when I tap the middle button, I called support and over the course of an hour they found they have the same issue. Before my call the people I spoke to said I was wrong and didn't know this issue existed, aftewards they had no advice for me other than to give up. My issue persists.

Re:Soli by gambiting on Thursday October 17, 2019 @06:17AM (#21280476)
>>The first is learnability. A big problem with gestures is that there is no clear affordance as to what kinds of gestures you can do, or any clear feedback. For feedback, one could couple Soli's input with a visual display, but at that point, it's not clear if there is a big advantage over a touchscreen, unless the display is really small.

That's the same reason for why I think voice controls are literally the worst way to interact with a computer ever(although I think this might actually top it).

Re:Soli by tomphoolery on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @03:52PM (#21274732)
> How can the system differentiate if you are intentionally gesturing as input vs incidentally gesturing?

This is why I had to change my Amazon Echo Dot's call word back from "Computer". Turns out one might say "computer" a lot during the course of the day, and Alexa was CONSTANTLY going off when it shouldn't have. It was so disappointing that I gave the echo dot away.

Re:Soli by wcip on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @10:26PM (#21278393)
Try watching star trek the next generation with that setting on.
Re:Soli by warrenmiller on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @12:57PM (#21272596)
Watch the keynote for more information on accidental gestures. They cater for it
Re:Soli by modernerd on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @04:04PM (#21274866)
There's a little on accidental input detection in this short video too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS8SW-ouM5w
Re:Soli by crummy on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @07:50PM (#21277417)
Off topic but does it seem like this link deliberately doesn't load any of the Youtube UI details, just leaving in grey hints? I thought the rest hadn't loaded but it's kind of a nice experience.

It looks like this on my end: https://imgur.com/F65dvgX

Re:Soli by shalmanese on Thursday October 17, 2019 @02:55AM (#21279558)
It's a bug. Youtube can't load those components so it displays placeholder UI.
Re:Soli by sizzle on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @04:06PM (#21274892)
Once we figure out (non-invasive) BCI and EEG type brain activity signature patterns for when our brains process our perceived intent of taking an action and can activate that action on the system side, prior to our brain sending those electrical impulses to our motor system.

How hard would it be to teach ourselves to inhibit the electrical impulses to our motor system when BCI can identify intent?

When would this level of BCI be possible if you had to make an educated guess?

Thanks for sharing, as a fellow HCI/Cog Sci graduate!

Re:Soli by pm90 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @05:35PM (#21276063)
This is coming dangerously close to what is commonly known as "reading your mind" and I'm terrified at what this means e.g. with law enforcement.
Re:Soli by empath75 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @12:49PM (#21272498)
Seems like being able to detect eye attention would solve the midas problem -- if you aren't looking at it, it doesn't do anything?
Re:Soli by aqme28 on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:25PM (#21272917)
That kind of defeats the benefit, doesn't it?

The nicest thing about physical buttons in say a car is that I don't have to look at it to know what I'm doing.

Re:Soli by fauigerzigerk on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @01:01PM (#21272660)
That would be great, but can radar really tell what you are looking at? I suppose could combine it with a camera but that sounds less than ideal in terms of energy use.

(I know very little about any of this)

Re:Soli by veeragoni on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @04:38PM (#21275298)
Didn't students ask about health affects? If not, consider me as a student and ask what affects it have on hand health with prolonged exposure at a closer proximity in your shirt or pant pocket.
Re:Soli by yogrish on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @11:42PM (#21278739)
spot on. I feel this is an abuse of technology. They want to take Touch to next level with gesture, but it is doomed to fail unless they solve other issues as you pointed out(just my opinion). Gesture might be good for gaming (ex:kinect). I worked on Hover touch in one of the big smartphone company. we achieved good results at different heights but eventually it didn't take off. After all Humans need a sense of touch to interact.
Re:Soli by pazimzadeh on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @08:26PM (#21277696)
Have a squeeze controlled trigger for input mode in your non-dominant hand?
Re:Soli by techolic on Wednesday October 16, 2019 @10:55PM (#21278533)
Reminds me of eye-controlled autofocus from early Canon cameras.