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Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by hkmurakami on Friday October 04, 2019 @11:59PM (#21163722)
"Holmes — who dropped out of Stanford University at 19 to found Theranos — and Balwani face maximum penalties of 20 years in prison and a $2.75 million fine, plus possible restitution, the Department of Justice has said.

Members of her legal team in the criminal case did not respond to questions about whether Holmes has been paying them."

Civil case lawyers not being paid. Criminal lawyers may be getting paid. Priorities.

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by travisjungroth on Saturday October 05, 2019 @03:44AM (#21164276)
You can’t get blood from a stone, but you can lock it up.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by DoreenMichele on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:21AM (#21163783)
The lawyers are seeking approval from the court to stop representing Holmes.

Because they haven't been paid in a year and don't expect to ever see a dime, given the state of her finances.

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by paxys on Saturday October 05, 2019 @01:41AM (#21164012)
What law firm agrees to work for a year without payment? Every one we have ever worked with would have cut us off after like a week, or max a month.

Although I guess Elizabeth Holmes has swindled smarter people.

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by newguy1234 on Saturday October 05, 2019 @03:47AM (#21164288)
Its a resume builder to say the least to show that you've worked serious cases.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by oh_sigh on Saturday October 05, 2019 @04:12AM (#21164349)
Why do lawyers need approval to stop representing a client? Isn't this essentially slavery if the courts decide so?
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by ender341341 on Saturday October 05, 2019 @05:09AM (#21164522)
It can unfairly reflect poorly on their client and bias the jury. In a case like this it should pretty much be a rubber stamp process from what I've read.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by arcticfox on Saturday October 05, 2019 @05:59AM (#21164697)
IIRC, when some of DOJs lawyers wanted out of defending the border detention camp "no toothbrush required" cases, it's also because it's a PITA for the Court to ramp up a new legal team in the middle of a massive case
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by _iyig on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:08AM (#21163747)
What happens if the attorneys quit, and Holmes can't afford more private lawyers? Would a public defender represent her? That'd be quite the case to pull, I'd imagine. On cases where full teams of lawyers and paralegals are needed, practically speaking, I'd be curious what sort of resources a public defender might be afforded.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by nradov on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:17AM (#21163772)
Public defenders don't represent defendants in civil cases. If Ms. Holmes can no longer afford an attorney then she'll have to appear pro se (or find pro bono representation).
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by iamasoftwaredev on Monday October 14, 2019 @06:46PM (#21253675)
God I hope she has to deal with having an underpaid and overworked public defender.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by np_tedious on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:23AM (#21163793)
Civil cases usually do not qualify for public defender. But then again, I guess this one is far from "usual"
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by hliyan on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:10AM (#21163756)
Perhaps it is time that we permanently retire the misguided Silicon Valley maxim "fake it till you make it". And along with that, maybe revisit the wisdom of others such as "fail fast".
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by np_tedious on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:18AM (#21163773)
What's wrong with "fail fast"? An honest Theranos that failed far sooner would've done little harm. "Fail fast" is about trying new things quickly and, here's the key, getting out when they start looking bad.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by Traster on Saturday October 05, 2019 @05:28AM (#21164591)
The problem with "Fail fast" as with many of these slogans is that people don't mean them. You can trust me, because my ethos is fail fast, so you know that this project must be good because I wouldn't be working on it if it weren't. It's a virtue signal. You could easily reframe "Fail Fast" as "Give up easily"- and no one thinks that's a really good thing. Similarly "Move fast and break things" could easily be restated as "Don't think about the consequences of your actions".

These are not actually good strategies, they're virtue signals that founders use to tell investors that we've got the "Silicon Valley" ethos that bought you Facebook/Google/etc.

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by perl4ever on Sunday October 06, 2019 @05:42PM (#21175369)
Most people don't succeed, so in trying to replicate success, the key must be something non-obvious and counter-intuitive.

So people are always going to look for possibilities that are superficially and obviously terrible approaches, but which look like they might be the secret of success if you squint the right way.

It's not merely that these particular slogans are bad and should be eliminated, it's that the nature of the game leads people to look for and invent such things, and if we all agreed not to ever say these things again, new ones would arise. I don't think there is a general solution.

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by damian2000 on Saturday October 05, 2019 @02:45AM (#21164159)
Totally agree - Theranos went on for something like a decade without any evidence they had made any sort of process breakthrough or innovation. The whole company was built on lies and bullshit. The co-founder dude who put up the initial money made that money by speculating on the dot com boom of 1999/2000 and getting out before it bust.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by Erlich_Bachman on Saturday October 05, 2019 @03:41AM (#21164272)
That's why he(she?) wrote "revisit". As in, let's get back to it, let's see why it could have been good.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by hliyan on Saturday October 05, 2019 @05:17AM (#21164558)
Nothing inherently. Except that most great discoveries/inventions were made by people who were convinced about the fundamental validity of their idea and persevered over many iterations (rather than pivoting). Consider how many years the incandescent light bulb would have been delayed had Edison (or Swan or whoever you want to credit) had failed fast with the filaments. To me, fail-fast is a very VC-centric philosophy. It's perfectly valid if your end goal is return on investment. But if your goal is to "build something", perseverance is generally a better strategy.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by np_tedious on Tuesday October 08, 2019 @07:52PM (#21198552)
> Consider how many years the incandescent light bulb would have been delayed had Edison (or Swan or whoever you want to credit) had failed fast with the filaments.

But he did try a lot of different filament materials. It would've been really dumb to think he was going to somehow get cotton or whatever wrong material correct if he just stuck with it. Instead he had procedures and a framework to try a lot of candidates and iterate quickly.

I get this argument might not be exactly fair because I can twist it to nearly anything. But that's how maxims like "fail fast" or "haste makes waste" or "a stitch in time..." works. They still have value

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by perl4ever on Sunday October 06, 2019 @05:44PM (#21175382)
If your goal as a society or whatever is to "build something" having many members who persevere is better. But on an individual basis, it usually isn't, because you'll probably fail. There's a tension between individual rationality and group rationality.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by iamasoftwaredev on Monday October 14, 2019 @06:47PM (#21253679)
AN honest Theranos would never have existed as a company.

People still laud Uber for illegal behaviour.

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by mkagenius on Saturday October 05, 2019 @04:49AM (#21164458)
I don't know but people have made that saying with probably one data point and people like us want some one shot solution to every problem we have in life and that's why such quotes gather momentum. In reality these do not have any substance at all. You fail fast or fail slow, each have its advantages and disadvantages, sometimes severe, I wouldn't want to hurry and fail in my nuclear energy startup. So please take everything with huge grain of salt when it comes to preaching from the (confirmation) biased peoples.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by paxys on Saturday October 05, 2019 @02:11AM (#21164078)
Theranos was a supposed Silicon Valley "darling" that couldn't actually convince any Silicon Valley VC firms to invest in it. It was given its credibility and lofty valuation by Betsy DeVos, The Waltons, Rupert Murdoch, The Cox Family, Carlos Slim, George Shultz, Henry Kissinger, James Mattis and more.

I'd personally call that a Silicon Valley success story.

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by adventured on Saturday October 05, 2019 @03:05AM (#21164193)
> couldn't actually convince any Silicon Valley VC firms to invest in it

There were three in fact.

Tim Draper invested the first money into Theranos due to a family connection to Holmes. His firm, Draper Fisher Jurvetson, put early money into them. ATA Ventures and Tako Ventures (Larry Ellison) also invested into them.

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by jmknoll on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:16AM (#21163770)
I’m not sure, I think “fail fast” could have benefited Theranos if they had seen the early failure of their machines and iterated on them rather than attempted to cover up the fact that they didn’t work.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by ericlewis on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:19AM (#21163777)
Can’t cover up what you don’t see...
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by sdan on Saturday October 05, 2019 @01:19AM (#21163954)
Well if you made a relatively dangerous product but don’t release it to the public, that shouldn’t be a problem... right?
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by TrackerFF on Saturday October 05, 2019 @08:18AM (#21165090)
IMO, it boils down to greed and stupid-ish money. VC in itself is inherently risky business, and everyone involved know that it's a 1 in every XX funded startup success story.

Because you have wildly successful companies like FANG, investors get all crazy and irrational when they see startups with the momentum and PR like Theranos had. Even if they're tech or scientific literate, they may suspend their disbelief, just in case the startup is a financial hit.

I have little sympathy for investors that decide to invest in things thy don't know about, but eve less for investors that knowingly invest in unsound tech, just for a big IPO payout - but then cry fraud when it all falls apart.

The "fake it till you make it" image is unfortunately needed to get the big bucks. In order to get funded, you need to act as if you're going to change the world, and convince investors that your product is going to be one of the leading, if not _the_ leading products in the market - doesn't mater if your startup is legit or bogus.

This culture unfortunately makes it easy for fraudsters to blend in - but they're just playing the game as designed.

It boils down to investors wanting 100x - 1000x returns on relatively small investments. And you don't get that kinds of returns unless the company / startup is of national or global size. To tackle and grow something to that size, you need to convince someone that you're capable of doing so.

No-one invests in people that appear to be doubting or lacking confidence. They root for young "super genius" founders that tick off all the right boxes

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by traderjane on Saturday October 05, 2019 @05:12AM (#21164540)
The culture of "fake it till you make it" is sustained by the inability to tell real from fake; scammers are sustained by those who believe. Bad politicians are sustained by "bad" voters. Bad business practices are sustained by undiscerning customers. Advertising is sustained by people who modify purchasing behavior based on ads.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by chongli on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:37AM (#21163836)
It's one thing to "fake it till you make it" with some silly web app. It's another thing entirely when you're taking a ton of investor's money to develop a product that impacts people's health (and then you lie to everyone about the fact that it has no chance of working).
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by megablast on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:25AM (#21163798)
Why? Because of a few bad eggs?

Maybe we should retire driving? 40,000 dead every single year in the USA, and over 2 million injured or disabled. According to your logic?

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by PeterStuer on Saturday October 05, 2019 @02:09AM (#21164070)
Imagine those numbers for any other thing. We'd have the military out on the streets to stop the slaughter, the HQs of those evil forces raided, their finances cutt of and their 'leaders' brought to a court of justice facing multiple life sentences.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by HSO on Saturday October 05, 2019 @02:43AM (#21164152)
You mean like opioid manufacturing and distribution or American food industry (disgusting, sorry)?
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by Scoundreller on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:39AM (#21163842)
> 40,000 dead every single year in the USA, and over 2 million injured or disabled.

I wish this made the headlines more. But it doesn't because it isn't new, exciting or controversial :(

Maybe it needs a better name, like HeartBleed?

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by asveikau on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:43AM (#21163856)
You forgot car culture's contribution to the obesity epidemic, climate change, etc.

So yeah. Let's reduce driving. Good call.

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by antonvs on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:43AM (#21163853)
Right, but we don't encourage people to "drive fast, crash often," say.

Also "fake it till you make it" wouldn't work very well for driving either.

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by SomeOldThrow on Saturday October 05, 2019 @01:41AM (#21164010)
Actually yea, we should be doing absolutely everything possible to get cars off the road.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by j7ake on Saturday October 05, 2019 @05:23AM (#21164574)
No, we implement seat belts, have safety regulations in cars, enforce driving limits, and prohibit driving under the influence.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by algaeontoast on Saturday October 05, 2019 @10:43AM (#21165776)
Maybe the new maxim should be "Fast and Felonious"
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by louwrentius on Saturday October 05, 2019 @06:13AM (#21164732)
Please read the book "Bad Blood" about Theranos if you haven't already.

It's just unbelievable what happend with Theranos and how a person like Elizabeth Holmes could do what she did.

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by throwaway2048 on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:14AM (#21163765)
If you stop paying your lawyers you are really screwed, because nobody is going to bother representing you in the future.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by ghego1 on Saturday October 05, 2019 @05:25AM (#21164580)
So true
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by ymolodtsov on Saturday October 05, 2019 @03:59AM (#21164315)
She probably swore on blood she’d pay.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by Simulacra on Sunday October 06, 2019 @03:45PM (#21174566)
I'm curious how much this is costing to defend her and the whole house of cards.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by breck on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:13AM (#21163763)
The true disgrace is this mercurynews website: https://share.icloud.com/photos/0d2m26gTecPfCus98HJoN9LyA
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by alephnan on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:18AM (#21163774)
What's the disgrace?
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by breck on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:23AM (#21163796)
Check the screenshot. That’s the user experience when I clicked this link.

But beyond the UX, and the stupidity of saying “private browsing is reserved for our logged in users”, think of the hypocrisy here: they want us to support freedom of the press and anonymous sources but don’t allow us to read anonymously.

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by speedplane on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:36AM (#21163827)
> they want us to support freedom of the press and anonymous sources but don’t allow us to read anonymously.

It's not that they don't want people to read anonymously, it's that they don't want people to read without paying. If there were an easy and anonymous way to pay for reading publications like the NYTimes, I'd bet the NYT would support it.

Okay, okay ... I know NYTimes is a big corporation, and like any other, they love sucking up as much data they can about their users, so they probably won't do this. However, without an easy and anonymous payment system, NYTimes still has moral cover for their behavior. The bottom line is that people should pay for what they read and providers should not require more than that. There's plenty of technology that can handle this relationship, it's just that most people don't.

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by zxexz on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:26AM (#21163801)
The New York Times does the same thing now, too. A scary dark pattern. I wish Incognito mode was less detectable, though I’m not exactly sure how that would work.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by lokedhs on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:52AM (#21163881)
Qubes OS and running the browser in a disposable VM works.

It should be possible to set up a lighter container with a browser whose data is completely wiped after the session competes for people who don't need or don't want to go all the way to use Qubes OS as their primate system.

Surely someone must have built this already? If not, it would be an interesting project.

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by zxexz on Thursday October 17, 2019 @10:18AM (#21282299)
Qubes OS is excellent for things like that, but not really something most people are willing to use. I love Qubes OS; especially being able to have a disposable Windows 7 template VM I can game with that has a PCI passthrough for my spare graphics card. Though, it's a bit heavy for my daily driver laptop.

Also, re: your browser idea - checkout the sibling comment to yours on using Chrome with a temporary data directory.

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by oh_sigh on Saturday October 05, 2019 @04:14AM (#21164355)
Why you can't just have all user profile data(cookies, local storage, browser history, etc) homed in a temporary folder that is deleted upon exit?
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by zxexz on Thursday October 17, 2019 @10:15AM (#21282273)
I think that's probably the 'easiest' solution. Could probably write a quick extension too just for NYT.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by Porthos9K on Friday October 04, 2019 @11:59PM (#21163723)
Scumbags never change. Did her attorneys honestly think Holmes would balk at stiffing them when she already proved willing and able to shaft Theranos' investors and employees?
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by tomhoward on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:27AM (#21163804)
I'm sure she'd willingly pay them whatever it would take minimise her penalties, if she could.

Occam's razor compels us to presume she's just broke.

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by Porthos9K on Saturday October 05, 2019 @01:23AM (#21163970)
Funny. Knowing her history, my razor pointed toward a proven lack of scruples.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by tomhoward on Saturday October 05, 2019 @01:55AM (#21164047)
The outcome is what matters in this case, far more than scruples. Presuming she wants to minimise her penalty, she will pay whatever it costs to make that happen.

If she's not paying, it must surely be because she's broke, rather than out of some perverse thrill of screwing people over and also getting a more severe penalty.

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by nordsieck on Saturday October 05, 2019 @02:00AM (#21164058)
> If she's not paying, it must surely be because she's broke, rather than out of some perverse thrill of screwing people over and also getting a more severe penalty.

Precisely. The "rational" time to screw the lawyers is once the trial is over, not before.

* Not actually rational because life is a multi-round game.

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by srge on Saturday October 05, 2019 @02:48AM (#21164161)
And customers...
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by aleister_777 on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:09AM (#21163751)
Well, yeah. Frankly seems like they were a bit slow on the uptake. Most companies operate at a net-30, net-90 with terms.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by justinator on Saturday October 05, 2019 @12:22AM (#21163790)
I'm simply shocked.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by Fjolsvith on Saturday October 05, 2019 @10:43AM (#21165777)
In related news, Michael Avenatti sues Stormy Daniels for legal fees, also. [1]

1. https://www.thedailybeast.com/michael-avenatti-suing-stormy-...

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by dang on Saturday October 05, 2019 @01:28PM (#21166770)
Could you please stop posting unsubstantive comments to Hacker News and stop using this site for political and ideological battle? You've unfortunately done quite a bit of both, and we ban accounts that do them repeatedly. The reason is that they both go against intellectual curiosity, which is the purpose of this site.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by kyleblarson on Monday October 07, 2019 @12:49PM (#21183006)
Meantime the number 3 article on the home page is a NYT Op Ed using charts with non linear axes to make charts look scary to push their predetermined left leaning narrative.
Re:Attorneys say Elizabeth Holmes isn’t paying them by iamasoftwaredev on Monday October 14, 2019 @06:50PM (#21253697)
> push their predetermined left leaning narrative.

The NYT Op Ed department is largely despised by leftists.