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Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by JMTQp8lwXL on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:06PM (#21104267)
Most people on HN, I would postulate, don't use Windows. We might use VS Code, we might use Azure, but we aren't using Microsoft's operating system.
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by nickjj on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:16PM (#21104319)
You'd be surprised about this. A ton of developers use Windows even if they are developing software that runs on Linux servers (myself included). Especially so in the last few years with WSL being quite good and Docker being available.

2019's Stackoverflow report for OS usage put Windows at 49.3% for "Professional developers" with MacOS at 29.2% and Linux at 25.3%.

I happen to have a few tech courses on programming and Docker and none of it requires writing Windows specific apps. Just general web apps. Over 50% of the people who take my courses are on Windows. Windows usage for Linux based development is real.

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by input_sh on Sunday September 29, 2019 @03:23AM (#21105627)
> 2019's Stackoverflow report for OS usage put Windows at 49.3% for "Professional developers" with MacOS at 29.2% and Linux at 25.3%.

Now expand that over the years and you'll get a clear downward trajectory:

    2013: 60.4%
    2014: 57.9%
    2015: 54.5%
    2016: 52.1%
    2018: 49.9%
    2019: 47.5%
That's 12.9% less market share compared to just six years ago.

Note that they haven't asked about the OS in 2017 and that the numbers I've found here[0] for 2019 are a few % smaller than yours. I've also used "all respondents" instead of the professional ones because they didn't make the distinction until 2018, but quite frankly, that works in Microsoft's favor since professionals are relying on it even less.

[0] https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019/#technology-_...

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by sukilot on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:51PM (#21104471)
WSL is interesting and fun, but too uncanny valley for Linux development. I stick with VirtualBox.
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by crankylinuxuser on Sunday September 29, 2019 @12:15AM (#21105039)
I stick with VMM. I won't touch oracle with my friend's 10 foot pole.

And if I have to run Windows, its from a Qubes DispVM, with whitelisted network configuration.

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by non-entity on Saturday September 28, 2019 @10:16PM (#21104577)
occasionally I'll reinstall Windows for something and use it as a daily driver for a while out of laziness
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by JMTQp8lwXL on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:24PM (#21104364)
I am certainly open to the idea of being surprised by this -- there very well could be more developers using Microsoft as the operating system they use for their development machine, however I do wonder if the population of Stack Overflow users is a good, un-skewed sample of all developers.
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by nickjj on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:33PM (#21104406)
I don't think too many people would be using Windows if it were really bad for Linux based development. I sure as heck wouldn't be.

In an ideal world I would be running native Linux but I had trouble with some audio gear not working and my favorite video editing tool doesn't run in Linux, nor do some of the games I play -- so I use Windows because that's what's available.

As much as I hate to say it, Windows is a pretty good environment to do every day developer things + more.

For example I spent 95% of my time in WSL using tmux and terminal Vim to write code full time (with fzf and everything you would expect on the command line). It's really fast. The wsltty terminal has almost as low input latency as xterm on native Linux (which I run on my modified Chromebook). While developing all sorts of web apps (Flask, Phoenix, Rails, Webpack, etc.) inside of Docker the volume performance is fast enough where I never once had complaints even on 5 year old hardware.

Then I'm a hotkey away from opening any program with command line launchers, switching virtual desktops with other hotkeys, running VMs for testing server deployments, recording and editing videos and playing any games I want without having to think twice about it or dual boot.

Other than bullshit telemetry and forced updates, Windows 10 Pro is not that bad from an all around "I use my computer to do stuff" perspective. I think that's ultimately why Windows is so popular. It also helps that you can put together a beast of a machine for about $750. But with that said I would instantly switch to Linux if all of my Linux problems were suddenly fixed.

In the mean time, if anyone is interested, I have a bunch of blog posts and videos showing how I set everything up in Windows. It can all be found here: https://nickjanetakis.com/blog/the-tools-i-use

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by inferiorhuman on Saturday September 28, 2019 @11:01PM (#21104759)
As much as I hate to say it, Windows is a pretty good environment to do every day developer things + more.

I keep thinking about the eventual replacement for my MacBook Pro. Every time I hear something like this, every time I see MS's open source contributions, etc. I keep thinking about Windows as a replacement.

At the top of the list of reasons why that's unlikely to happen is shit like these dark patterns to enforce invasive telemetry. I don't care how good WSL is, I don't want to be spied on or coerced into allowing spyware to run.

The rest of the list is mostly: I don't believe/agree with you. I've used chocolataey (ugh), and I don't want to do all of my development in a VM. I recently set up a Win 7 VM to get a small C# library built. Turns out it was easier to build it on my Mac and copy it over.

Other than bullshit telemetry and forced updates

Let me stop you right there. I'm not going to consider anything with forced spyware and forced updates. Until those are fixed I don't care about the rest.

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by nickjj on Sunday September 29, 2019 @07:45AM (#21106484)
> The rest of the list is mostly: I don't believe/agree with you.

All of what I mentioned is documented on my site and in a lot of cases I've recorded and published unedited videos of my WSL (v1) / Docker based dev environment.

You are free to believe what you want, but I'm not lying. If it were not as good as a claimed I wouldn't be using it for full time development / video creation.

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by nipinium on Sunday September 29, 2019 @05:53AM (#21106150)
> I've used chocolataey (ugh)

use scoop instead.

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by GordonS on Sunday September 29, 2019 @09:05AM (#21106810)
Chocolatey had so much promise, but it just doesn't deliver. At least in my experience, software tends to be outdated, and the packaging often of dubious quality. There are also multiple packages available for a lot of software, so you don't know which one to choose. Oh, and the Chocolatey website is pretty awful too.

I do like scoop, but of course the selection available is much smaller than Chocolatey, at least for now.

Come to think of it, it's kind of strange that Microsoft never created a packaging system for Windows (aside from the Store; I mean for non-UWP apps).

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by ryan-allen on Saturday September 28, 2019 @10:08PM (#21104535)
Check out the VS Code SSH remote, if your internet is good enough or if you have a spare computer lying around, you can develop as if it's 'on the desktop' but you get none of the friction and all of the bare metal speed, I switched from terminal VIM a few years ago and the intellisense makes it worth it. There is a VSVim plugin that is... pretty good if you haven't gone too far down the VIM rabbit hole (my usage was and still is pretty basic).
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by bluedino on Saturday September 28, 2019 @10:21PM (#21104597)
WSL is one workaround after another
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by ryan-allen on Saturday September 28, 2019 @10:05PM (#21104521)
I am! I reckon it's a neat OS. They've improved it dramatically (except for that... Candy Crush auto install, that is annoying).

I have used WSL a lot, and now I use VS Code Remote to develop on a Debian 10 VPS. It's glorious.

Being able to build a custom computer that I can do work on, and that I can play games on, and that run the Adobe suite of software, and not pay through the nose for high specs is wonderful.

After 10 year of using Apple and OS X, I felt patronised having to pay double the price for performance. The nail for me was when OS updated were forced through their Apple Store.

Windows 10 updates are far more seamless.

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by tonyedgecombe on Sunday September 29, 2019 @08:23AM (#21106622)
The nail for me was when OS updated were forced through their Apple Store.

They have moved away from that now, updates are managed through preferences again.

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by ryan-allen on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @12:07AM (#21121957)
It's too late for me my friend!
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by HenryKissinger on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:15PM (#21104316)
Windows remains the most convenient OS for video games, and given HN's userbase (mostly young men), I think a lot of people here use Windows.
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by arvinsim on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:56PM (#21104493)
Windows is also the OS that doesn't require relatively expensive hardware(MacOS barring hackintosh) and doesn't require that much fiddling(Linux).

It's basically the good enough option that most people would use.

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by sundvor on Sunday September 29, 2019 @02:15AM (#21105435)
It also lets you build bloody good ones. The 3950X will be a ripper when it's out, couple that with a PCIE4 nvme, 3600 MHz DDR4 and you'll have screaming performance for a relatively modest budget that'd cost you a mortgage and a firstborn under Apple - if at all possible.
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by jhasse on Sunday September 29, 2019 @03:24AM (#21105632)
It will also work with Linux though.
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by sundvor on Sunday September 29, 2019 @09:16PM (#21110925)
Absolutely. I see a few people running Linux on their desktop, but the majority are on OSX.

The Linux / Windows world offers more performance for significantly less money, if you're prepared to learn about hardware.

I find it so much fun, although sometimes frustrating when things like bios bugs interfere with normal voltage levels - need to be more hands on these days than before.

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by greggman2 on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:41PM (#21104434)
Windows is also the arguably the domain of GPU related dev. I see lots of Razer laptops. They are small and same weight as a MBP but you can get a 2080 RTX (previously 1060 GTX). Even the newest MBA's GPU is not 1/2 as fast as the 3 year old Razer (and its peers)
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by fortran77 on Saturday September 28, 2019 @10:42PM (#21104677)
That's right. We use Surface Book with NVIDIA for our laptops and Thinkmate / Supermicro PCs. All with NVIDIA. Our Hollywood clients need NVIDIA for video rendering and we write software in CUDA/C++.

Windows 10 really does work great. Seriously!

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by bootlooped on Saturday September 28, 2019 @10:22PM (#21104599)
Are people really using these for work instead of just spinning up a cloud instance or using a desktop? I've always thought they were a horrible deal for gaming, and it seems like they'd still be a horrible deal for ML work or whatever.
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by orangecat on Saturday September 28, 2019 @11:06PM (#21104779)
Windows remains the most convenient OS for video games

Steam's Proton is amazingly good. I recently switched from an iMac to a PC, and was expecting to use Windows for games and Linux for development, but Proton has run everything I've tried with excellent performance and stability.

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by alpaca128 on Sunday September 29, 2019 @02:54AM (#21105544)
Go install Linux on a laptop with Nvidia Optimus hardware and you'll see how "amazingly good" Linux gaming is on many devices. No, Linux won't come close for at least the next 10 years. It's much better now with Proton, yes, but still not nearly enough. Even on my machine with the more compatible hardware at least 50% of games crash with Proton before you even see a window.
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by likeclockwork on Sunday September 29, 2019 @04:58AM (#21105962)
Wine works pretty well and compatibility is increasingly all the time. Proton integrating wine with Steam is quite convenient. Sure, not everything works.. but then I'm not going to buy every console and handheld just so I can play their exclusives either.

Everyone has their own values but...

I have more games than I can reasonably play in months installed and available to me already, with more coming out all the time.. there's no one game that would make me compromise everything just for recreation.

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by ulzeraj on Sunday September 29, 2019 @12:41AM (#21105118)
I do but I don’t pay for it. I have a copy on boot camp and its been a while since the “Activate Windows” watermark stopped bothering me. It boots directly into Steam Big Picture. I know I know... but at least I’m not using malware infested solutions to keep it working.
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by bitwize on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:10PM (#21104286)
Then explain all those "Windows with WSL is the only Linux desktop I'll ever use" posts.
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by detaro on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:13PM (#21104305)
Not made by most people, and (anecdotally) often made by people for which the alternative to a "Linux desktop" is a Mac, not Windows.
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by ColinWielga on Saturday September 28, 2019 @10:11PM (#21104544)
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by fortran77 on Sunday September 29, 2019 @08:48AM (#21106722)
And your poll is showing most people here run Windows.
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by JMTQp8lwXL on Sunday September 29, 2019 @12:31PM (#21107973)
Currently the poll is 56%. It's barely a majority. My original commenting, say "many" don't use Windows, seems quite reasonable. Granted, this poll shouldn't be considered authoritative.
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by fortran77 on Sunday September 29, 2019 @01:41PM (#21108421)
The rest is split between two other operating systems.

It's OK to admit you're wrong, you know.

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by sundvor on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:52PM (#21104480)
I for one am finding W10 with WSL, Docker and the new Console fantastic.

Can't wait for WSL2 in 2020 with half second Docker starts++.

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by fortran77 on Saturday September 28, 2019 @10:28PM (#21104628)
I run Windows 10. I'm running it now. It works well, and I don't want to cut my nose off to spite my face by worrying about Satya Nadella seeing my internet searches. I'm not that important that I have to worry about these things.

I tend to run it on the "Happy Path" only make a few changes to keep some notifications from bothering me. And I don't buy machines from vendors that try to "add value" by putting crapware or shovelware on the machine. (I buy Supermicro-based boxes from Thinkmate, and use Surface Book notebooks.)

I write software all day long in Erlang, F#, and CUDA/C++ and have to write software that works with popular film and audio production software (which runs on Windows platforms)

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by GordonS on Sunday September 29, 2019 @09:09AM (#21106825)
Your internet searches are not part of the telemetry - it's nowhere near that invasive [0] (I still believe you should have the option of disabling it though).

[0] https://docs.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/privacy/configure-w...

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by JMTQp8lwXL on Saturday September 28, 2019 @11:07PM (#21104783)
> I don't want to cut my nose off to spite my face

I have trouble understanding this perspective since it's hard to see what critical functionality Windows provides, that you can't get with Mac OS or Linux. If they wouldn't be materially different experiences, the metaphor doesn't hold water.

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by GordonS on Sunday September 29, 2019 @09:25AM (#21106901)
> it's hard to see what critical functionality Windows provides, that you can't get with Mac OS or Linux

With MacOS, your choice of hardware is very limited, and you have to pay way over the odds for it. You also can't run a lot of games on it.

With Linux, the desktop experience is, IMO, not as good as on Windows, and neither is driver support. Things have improved a lot here, but the UX is just not as polished as Windows. I do love Linux though - for servers, I wouldn't use anything else.

I really like Windows 10 Pro/Enterprise (apart from dick moves like this, of course). I can build incredibly powerful desktop or laptop machines, in terms of RAM, CPU and GPU - and everything is more or less guaranteed to "just work", and be stable too. You get excellent multi-monitor and high-DPI support, good accessability features, Hyper-V for running VMs, Sandbox coming soon, WSL for a Linux-like experience - and WSL2 will soon make it even better. And of course your gaming options are much better too.

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by fortran77 on Saturday September 28, 2019 @11:36PM (#21104885)
I can't run NVidia on Macs (Ok, some Mac true believer will tell me I can get an PCI-X external cage and run it over thunderbolt with crazy drivers) and I can't run Adobe Premiere, After Effects, Audition, etc, on a Linux machine.
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by angry_octet on Sunday September 29, 2019 @04:57AM (#21105959)
It's one reason I gave up having a MacBook Pro, the hardware is underwhelming in so many ways.

But my Mac Pro from 2010 still gets nvidia driver updates and cuda support. In the unlikely event someone will pay for a new Mac Pro for me I'll be able to stick a 2080 in it.

You can stick an nvidia card in a PCI-e chassis and it will work on a laptop or Mac mini, but yes it isn't optimal.

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by fortran77 on Monday September 30, 2019 @09:49AM (#21115293)
"isn't optimal" is an understatement. It's downright wonky!
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by angry_octet on Tuesday October 01, 2019 @03:57AM (#21123038)
I've had good experiences with Magma PCIe expanders, for linux and macis, though they are firmly in the enterprise space. https://www.onestopsystems.com/pcie-expansion

Ah, the joys of finding quirks in PCIe enumeration when you have PCIe switches and expansion bridges.

Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by shaklee3 on Saturday September 28, 2019 @10:16PM (#21104574)
I use vscode on Windows with the remote ssh plugin. It's amazing, and I'd never go back. I can kick of compilations of large projects on an 80-core server instead of my laptop. When I need to, wsl works great for small compilations.
Re:Microsoft has removed the “use offline account” option wh... by IAmGraydon on Saturday September 28, 2019 @09:33PM (#21104404)
Pretty sure you couldn’t be more wrong.