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Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by ineedasername on Saturday September 21, 2019 @02:37PM (#21037069)
> Everybody thinks his business is different, because everybody is the same. Nobody. Is. Different. [from a wall street analyst about Boeing]

This in a nutshell represents the core failure of modern managerial thinking. What started as "scientific management" many decades ago, an attempt to systematically understand how corporations should operate, quickly evolved into a group think belief that management could function as fungible & completely replaceable units of work-- that a "manager" could be trained up in various basic principles and plugged into any role

There are of course commonalities across businesses, and commonalities across managers for necessary skill, but each business is, in some core, fundamental way, different from others. Good management of a company doesn't following a paint-by-numbers rule book, it requires deep understanding of the particulars of that business, the market & industry it operates in.

I think this is changing, slowly, but the legacy of this flawed thinking is a long one.

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by bjornsing on Saturday September 21, 2019 @04:00PM (#21037572)
Yea, this whole “management is a profession in itself” thing is incredibly toxic on so many levels... If you’re American you should count yourself lucky that this thinking has not swallowed the whole economy. Where I am (in Sweden) it pretty much has. :(
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by ChuckNorris89 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @12:46AM (#21039720)
It's the same, or maybe even worse in Germany.

On a previous job I was working on a component for the project that was a well known Audi model. In 18 months, Audi replaced the manager for that project 3 times.

Managerial careers in German corps are a revolving door where incompetents go in, do nothing, slap the prestigious company name in their resume, then, when the shit hits the fan, jump ship to next prestigious company. Rinse and repeat.

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by akiselev on Sunday September 22, 2019 @02:08AM (#21039933)
The American economy has been swallowed up by "management as a profession" since Frederick Winslow Taylor in the late 1800s.

You're all late to the party.

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by ethbro on Saturday September 21, 2019 @04:46PM (#21037836)
Isn't that the point the article is making?

That in late-stage capitalism, all actual work is invariably outsourced, with only management and profits retained?

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by bjornsing on Saturday September 21, 2019 @04:56PM (#21037895)
I'm not sure I personally see the link to outsourcing. But I do agree with the quote in the OP that (in my own words) once innovation is no longer the main differentiator you typically see the “power and money people” take over. So I guess you could say that Americans should count themselves lucky that they still have large sections of the economy where innovation is the differentiator.
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by mncharity on Saturday September 21, 2019 @08:06PM (#21038746)
> once innovation is no longer the main differentiator you typically see the “power and money people” take over.

Someone contrasting engineering culture at Tesla and current "old auto", described part of the latter as being fine with someone else making the actual vehicle, and then just slapping a brand on it. Suggesting causality can go the other way too - innovation is still a differentiator, but is deemphasized by a management culture focused elsewhere.

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by codemonkeyius on Saturday September 21, 2019 @09:29PM (#21039050)
Re: the link to outsourcing - is it not clear? Without scapegoating the cheaper external workers - as the business gets commodified, management sees less and less of the value in the internal expertise and institutional memory.

You start to see a 50-year-old engineer not as a battle-hardened mentor who can be a leader for your teams and instead as a highly-paid shambling pile with less "productivity" than a fresh grad.

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by otakucode on Saturday September 21, 2019 @06:57PM (#21038421)
>evolved into a group think belief that management could function as fungible & completely replaceable units of work

That is just an element of consistency. Since the 1980s management 'wisdom' has been centered around the idea that all workers should be fungible, replaceable units of work. Ideas like 'if you are irreplaceable, you are expendable' and the notion that your degree of importance to the functioning of a company is also a measure of how much of a liability you are, etc. They're ideas rooted in the notion that a business should prefer to close its doors rather than do anything which could raise the cost of labor in the market. If an individual becomes important in the functioning of a business, they should be eliminated as swiftly as possible because otherwise they will remain and eventually ask for more money. Since you can never, ever, consider granting that request, you will have to fire them at that point and the damage would be even harder to repair than if you had disposed of them when you first realized their importance. So better to eject them when you first realize it and clean up whatever damage that causes when it is more containable. Perhaps that viewpoint might have had some relevance in industries centered around commodity repetitive physical labor, but I would argue that it is overall destructive in knowledge-based industries. It has been phenomenally successful at suppressing the cost of labor (between 1950 and 1980, the median wage of workers rose 75%, between 1980 and 2010 it rose by only 1%) but it's caused a widespread host of much larger problems that threaten the very foundation of the economy.

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by baybal2 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @03:12PM (#21037275)
> This in a nutshell represents the core failure of modern managerial thinking. What started as "scientific management" many decades ago, an attempt to systematically understand how corporations should operate, quickly evolved into a group think belief that management could function as fungible & completely replaceable units of work-- that a "manager" could be trained up in various basic principles and plugged into any role

This is what I like about Chinese industry, for now...

They have not yet got themselves into "scientific management" coolaid.

"Sales call in the morning, prototypes in the evening" — says all about it. Find a single American electronics maker who can do that.

The crisis in American corporate culture is that people can't find out what their company exceeds in. So much focus goes to MBA things, than whatever is company's main competence gets less and less clear.

But in China, things crystal clear, for now:

Factories compete on cheap widgets

Engineering companies compete on TTM

Lawyers compete on winning cases

Car companies compete on horsepowers

Advertising companies compete on being obnoxious

Banks compete on cheaper loans

No "strategic analysis" bullshit

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by ethbro on Saturday September 21, 2019 @04:51PM (#21037862)
I expect the downvotes are because of the unmentioned "communist, single-party states are the essence of groupthink coolaid" elephant.

But I doubt you're wrong on the engineering analysis.

The physical world has the unique property of being unbeholden to vision. Either the widget works, or it doesn't.

And in a marketplace with actual competition, you're going to have a lot of people working very hard to build a better widget.

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by cat199 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @10:06PM (#21039186)
stealing your R&D and producing things using near-slave labor probably doesn't hurt competitive advantage too much either, but lets not pay attention to any of that..
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by ScottBurson on Saturday September 21, 2019 @03:31PM (#21037385)
Having worked for some startups and a couple of large companies, I note that while the large companies tend to fall into this generic-management, vision-free thinking, successful startups are not run that way. Successful startups are all about adapting to the particular niche they're trying to serve.

(I did once work for a startup that was run somewhat like a large company. It failed. Most startups fail anyway, of course, but I don't think this one had to fail.)

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by mlthoughts2018 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @03:46PM (#21037475)
I almost burst out laughing reading this. I’ve also worked across start-ups and larger established companies, across industries and with different ranges of success outcomes.

Never saw one iota of difference in how management is handled. If anything, the reduced bureaucracy of the start-ups was a problem because it left executive behavior wildly unconstrained, where rampant religious bigotry, sexual harassment, micromanagement and overwork were elevated into practically glorified business ideals and self-serving cultish culture mandates

Executives at bigger companies were just as reprehensible most of the time, but at least had many more layers of other corporate oversight constraining them to at least give appearances of professionalism and sincerely consider employee’s needs when designing policy.

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by bjornsing on Saturday September 21, 2019 @03:55PM (#21037537)
So... managers/executives are just reprehensible in general...?
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by vkou on Saturday September 21, 2019 @08:00PM (#21038711)
Someone having absolute power over you leads to reprehensible behavior, and the most common expression of that power in the modern age is the manager-employee relationship.
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by HeyLaughingBoy on Saturday September 21, 2019 @09:14PM (#21039004)
Oh, be serious!

No manager has "absolute power" over you. At a maximum they have the power to fire you. As a software developer in this economy there are far more important things to worry about.

And yeah, I'm a manager!

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by kevingadd on Saturday September 21, 2019 @09:40PM (#21039090)
Yeah, firing you so you can't pay rent and don't have health care isn't much power at all, is it?

And withholding a reference for their next job hunt certainly doesn't do anything either.

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by HeyLaughingBoy on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:35AM (#21041822)
The OP said "absolute power" not "any power" so let's at least get that straight.

Nice goalpost moving, though.

And TBH, I don't know anyone who uses their current job as reference for the next job: probably wouldn't go over well. I still have people I last worked with 10 years ago using me as a reference.

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by shams93 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @01:25AM (#21039827)
Yeah in modern capitalism simple failure to "fit in" often leads to death for a free country you have to toe the line so tight it breaks your feet but you better not complain lol
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by mlthoughts2018 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @04:09PM (#21037641)
Yeah, there is even a whole academic-grade sociology book about this, called Moral Mazes.
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by bjornsing on Saturday September 21, 2019 @05:22PM (#21037987)
Interesting. Haven’t come across this book before.

A quick glance on the Wikipedia page[1] doesn’t give me the impression that it paints all managers/executives as reprehensible though... But I guess you’ve read it and come to this conclusion?

I do agree though that there is, in many of the organizations I’ve worked in, large and smallish, a perverse incentive structure in that "instead of ability, talent, and dedicated service to an organization, politics, adroit talk, luck, connections, and self-promotion are the real sorters of people into sheep and goats" [1]. But you think the solution to this is more bureaucracy? I’m leaning more towards better selection, cultural norms and perhaps some “separation of powers”. But I’m speculating.

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Mazes

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by lonelappde on Sunday September 22, 2019 @04:05AM (#21040229)
Most people are selfish. But this only matters when people have power. That's why people in power look so bad.
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by bjornsing on Sunday September 22, 2019 @06:33AM (#21040642)
An interesting and succinct explanation.

It goes well with my own thinking too, that (in management/power) you want people who are focused on the outside world, with a “selfish” desire to affect/change it. When they act “selfishly” they will at least do something resembling executing on a strategy.

The people you really want to avoid are those that are not very talented or able and just want power for its own sake. When they turn “selfish” they will focus within the organization, promoting cronies, expanding their power base, etc, etc. when others see this the culture goes to hell...

That’s my current theory at least. :P

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by ScottBurson on Saturday September 21, 2019 @03:52PM (#21037510)
And were those startups successful?
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by mlthoughts2018 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @04:08PM (#21037634)
One of them was, yes.
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by ScottBurson on Saturday September 21, 2019 @04:24PM (#21037715)
I understand what you're saying about unconstrained executive behavior at startups, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm referring specifically to whether they ran the business as a generic commodity business, where cost-cutting took precedence over innovation. For all their flaws and misbehaviors, I'll wager that the successful ones didn't.
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by ineedasername on Saturday September 21, 2019 @05:33PM (#21038048)
Yes, absolutely, I think that's a part of the success of startups, possibly any new company. The participants fully know, understand and believe in the company's products and vision,
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by killjoywashere on Saturday September 21, 2019 @06:38PM (#21038330)
The US military is the ultimate representation of this "managers-are-replacable-units-of-work". Officers (managers) are yanked around the world from job to job every couple of years. There's a degree of specialization early (infantry, pilot, logistician, etc) but that is really just an initialization step to make sure the organization has sufficient coverage for all the junior jobs. Future jobs progress toward generality. This leads to generals and admirals with supreme knowledge of fundamental policy issues, and deep connections with lots of peers, seniors, and subordinates. But there is a frozen middle of non-attaining careerists who are either entirely competent but were passed over for the next rank and are now looking for the door, and incompetents trying to hold on as long as possible. The paradox is that, in this frozen middle, it's the incompetents who seek power (in the hopes of getting that promotion) and the competents who are unloading responsibilities as they prepare to transition.

This has created a new problem, where the existing leadership is looking for traditional signals for promotion and seeing this bizzaro world of incompetents doing the key thing it takes to promote: exercising power at a fairly senior level (a typical officer in the O-6 grade is responsible for about 1000-5000 people), and remember, the flag officers have those deep connections, they know who's competent and they know those people aren't seeking additional responsibilities. So they got Congress to authorize bringing in outsiders at the O-6 level (clearly competent, and have exercised authority at that key 1000-5000 head-count level, or at least 500-1000), which pisses off the career-competents to no end and puts the fear of god into the career-incompetents, exacerbating the situation. Yet it did nothing because who in god's name, making 500k on the outside, is going to take a $150k job at the Pentagon and live in a shack 20 miles outside the Beltway and endure that commute on the 66?

So now the flag officers have finally also gotten authority (finally) to start forcibly retiring the dead wood from the senior ranks: O-4s, O-5s, and O-6s who have failed to select for the next rank several years in a row, frequently sitting in jobs that could be filled by O-2s or O-3s. Keep in mind, the head-count at each rank is capped by Congress, so the competents can't even promote around the incompetents. It's a war of attrition where the dead wood wins because the opportunities outside outweigh the opportunities inside. At which point it really does start looking like a jobs program. Thus these new "continuation selection boards".

This is a real problem. I had one of these incompetent O-5s sitting in an O-3 billet working for me and getting that person transferred out of my group was the single best thing I ever did for group morale. And before you accuse of me of just pushing the problem onto another group, let me just say that steps were taken to ensure this individual will also be seen further up in the CSB list.

But even that new culling process seems insufficient. The standards for record review are too high, and the observed number of forced retirements is too low. The system is driven by fear, uncertainty, and doubt. All the way down.

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by frankharv on Saturday September 21, 2019 @09:05PM (#21038967)
How about the requirement for Navy Officers and Chief Perry officers to have a picture in their service record. This always struck me. Why? So they would not advance ugly people? I never understood that. Maybe you had a mole in the wrong place? When people were going before the selection board they would pay for a professional picture to make them look the best. That seemed like the least thing to judge a person by. Their 'looks'. The whole selection process was bullshit and not based on merit. I can't imagine the politics involved at the flag level.
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by Paperweight on Saturday September 21, 2019 @08:15PM (#21038777)
When you give a bunch of boys a $1T use-it-or-lose-it budget to run around playing with guns and buy shiny toys (no offence), with no war to fight and no metrics for success, well, you're not going to end up with a real efficient operation staffed with smart go-getters firmly based in reality. :)
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by tzs on Saturday September 21, 2019 @07:56PM (#21038692)
How does pay work at a given rank in the US military? Looking at a table of pay [1] it lists a range for most ranks. For example, it lists for O-3, Captain, a range of $48560 to $79002. What determines where you are in that range if you are a Captain?

Ranges for consecutive ranks overlap quite a bit. O-4, Major, is $55231 to $92218. If you are promoted from Captain to Major, and were at the high end of Captain pay, I assume you don't drop down to the bottom of Major pay. Do you go to about the same percentile in Major pay that you had in Captain pay?

[1] https://www.federalpay.org/military/army/ranks

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by detaro on Saturday September 21, 2019 @07:58PM (#21038700)
if you click the ranks on that site, it lets you calculate based on years of experience.
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by soapboxrocket on Sunday September 22, 2019 @05:01PM (#21043917)
> There are of course commonalities across businesses, and commonalities across managers for necessary skill, but each business is, in some core, fundamental way, different from others. Good management of a company doesn't following a paint-by-numbers rule book, it requires deep understanding of the particulars of that business, the market & industry it operates in.

This is actually part of the problem with Boeing. They keep all the functions across the aircraft separate, or at least at arms length. So for instance if you want to talk about fuel systems, there is a 737 SME, a 747 SME, a 787 SME, a 767 SME, and a legacy SME.

Cross the pond and want to talk fuel systems at Airbus? There is one SME group that manages all of the fuel systems across the commercial aircraft with leads for each program.

What Boeing created was a system that requires internal competition for resources and promotions and spread knowledge too thin without the sharing of the commonalities across the fleet.