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Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by ScottBurson on Saturday September 21, 2019 @03:31PM (#21037385)
Having worked for some startups and a couple of large companies, I note that while the large companies tend to fall into this generic-management, vision-free thinking, successful startups are not run that way. Successful startups are all about adapting to the particular niche they're trying to serve.

(I did once work for a startup that was run somewhat like a large company. It failed. Most startups fail anyway, of course, but I don't think this one had to fail.)

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by mlthoughts2018 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @03:46PM (#21037475)
I almost burst out laughing reading this. I’ve also worked across start-ups and larger established companies, across industries and with different ranges of success outcomes.

Never saw one iota of difference in how management is handled. If anything, the reduced bureaucracy of the start-ups was a problem because it left executive behavior wildly unconstrained, where rampant religious bigotry, sexual harassment, micromanagement and overwork were elevated into practically glorified business ideals and self-serving cultish culture mandates

Executives at bigger companies were just as reprehensible most of the time, but at least had many more layers of other corporate oversight constraining them to at least give appearances of professionalism and sincerely consider employee’s needs when designing policy.

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by bjornsing on Saturday September 21, 2019 @03:55PM (#21037537)
So... managers/executives are just reprehensible in general...?
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by vkou on Saturday September 21, 2019 @08:00PM (#21038711)
Someone having absolute power over you leads to reprehensible behavior, and the most common expression of that power in the modern age is the manager-employee relationship.
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by HeyLaughingBoy on Saturday September 21, 2019 @09:14PM (#21039004)
Oh, be serious!

No manager has "absolute power" over you. At a maximum they have the power to fire you. As a software developer in this economy there are far more important things to worry about.

And yeah, I'm a manager!

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by kevingadd on Saturday September 21, 2019 @09:40PM (#21039090)
Yeah, firing you so you can't pay rent and don't have health care isn't much power at all, is it?

And withholding a reference for their next job hunt certainly doesn't do anything either.

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by HeyLaughingBoy on Sunday September 22, 2019 @11:35AM (#21041822)
The OP said "absolute power" not "any power" so let's at least get that straight.

Nice goalpost moving, though.

And TBH, I don't know anyone who uses their current job as reference for the next job: probably wouldn't go over well. I still have people I last worked with 10 years ago using me as a reference.

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by shams93 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @01:25AM (#21039827)
Yeah in modern capitalism simple failure to "fit in" often leads to death for a free country you have to toe the line so tight it breaks your feet but you better not complain lol
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by mlthoughts2018 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @04:09PM (#21037641)
Yeah, there is even a whole academic-grade sociology book about this, called Moral Mazes.
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by bjornsing on Saturday September 21, 2019 @05:22PM (#21037987)
Interesting. Haven’t come across this book before.

A quick glance on the Wikipedia page[1] doesn’t give me the impression that it paints all managers/executives as reprehensible though... But I guess you’ve read it and come to this conclusion?

I do agree though that there is, in many of the organizations I’ve worked in, large and smallish, a perverse incentive structure in that "instead of ability, talent, and dedicated service to an organization, politics, adroit talk, luck, connections, and self-promotion are the real sorters of people into sheep and goats" [1]. But you think the solution to this is more bureaucracy? I’m leaning more towards better selection, cultural norms and perhaps some “separation of powers”. But I’m speculating.

1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Mazes

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by lonelappde on Sunday September 22, 2019 @04:05AM (#21040229)
Most people are selfish. But this only matters when people have power. That's why people in power look so bad.
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by bjornsing on Sunday September 22, 2019 @06:33AM (#21040642)
An interesting and succinct explanation.

It goes well with my own thinking too, that (in management/power) you want people who are focused on the outside world, with a “selfish” desire to affect/change it. When they act “selfishly” they will at least do something resembling executing on a strategy.

The people you really want to avoid are those that are not very talented or able and just want power for its own sake. When they turn “selfish” they will focus within the organization, promoting cronies, expanding their power base, etc, etc. when others see this the culture goes to hell...

That’s my current theory at least. :P

Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by ScottBurson on Saturday September 21, 2019 @03:52PM (#21037510)
And were those startups successful?
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by mlthoughts2018 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @04:08PM (#21037634)
One of them was, yes.
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by ScottBurson on Saturday September 21, 2019 @04:24PM (#21037715)
I understand what you're saying about unconstrained executive behavior at startups, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm referring specifically to whether they ran the business as a generic commodity business, where cost-cutting took precedence over innovation. For all their flaws and misbehaviors, I'll wager that the successful ones didn't.
Re:Boeing's Managerial Revolution Created the 737 Max Disaster by ineedasername on Saturday September 21, 2019 @05:33PM (#21038048)
Yes, absolutely, I think that's a part of the success of startups, possibly any new company. The participants fully know, understand and believe in the company's products and vision,