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Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by ttul on Friday September 20, 2019 @09:03PM (#21032800)
EUV is definitely solidly in the realm of magic for me. A spray of tin blasted with 2MW of lasers into a plasma to generate the “light” which is then bounced off of mirrors which barely qualify as mirrors to produce a focused beam to burn in features only a handful of atoms wide... 100,000kg of equipment. $100M per unit.

It’s mind boggling.

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by the8472 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @05:49AM (#21034395)
It is a very large ritual that requires unique artifacts for the sole purpose of engraving small crystals which are then socketed into larger edifices and imbued with the spells of many wizards before they are distributed by territorial guilds to common man, in exchange for a recurring obol. Entire fiefdoms have been erected by merchants of these artifacts of power. But as we come to depend on their miracles more and more there are concerns that The Enemy could dispel or corrupt them... well... let's leave it at that, entire schools of warding, counter-warding, arithmancy etc. etc. are dedicated to these topics, more than we could cover here.

Oh, and beware of charlatans who want to sell you so-called artificial soulstones, they are awfully common in these halls. The gems are tools made by man to imitate the divine spark, but they can never rival or become the genuine article.

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by smueller1234 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @03:51AM (#21034052)
It's pretty mind boggling indeed. Back in 2005 I did an internship with one of the two manufacturers of lithography lensing systems, in their R&D. It was very interesting and certainly showed me that my physics studies weren't really teaching me optics at all.

Weird anecdotes: the people working on EUV didn't believe in it at all. It was a big joke to them. But the roadmaps were showing it... not in 2019. The mirrors were being polished by hand. Robotic tools are more accurate, but the inaccuracies they produce are aligned, creating optically meaningful patterns. So instead they had two guys with PhDs in metallurgy polishing mirrors. The all important simulations of lensing systems were done with classical optics and a ton of FORTRAN. Certainly throwing in some phenomenology around effects that are ultimately quantum effects, but no out there quantum optics or anything of the sort. This was 2005 though. The weight of the lenses itself changed their optical properties enough that we would measure the stresses induced by their weight and the impact on optical properties so we could include that in the system end to end error budget.

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by seieste on Saturday September 21, 2019 @09:16AM (#21035181)
What sort of optics did you feel weren't covered by your physics courses?
Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by smueller1234 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @10:07AM (#21035455)
It was a half semester only in an early, first or second year experimental course. It felt mostly like an advanced high school course that was rigorous on the math. For example the birefringence I mentioned in my previous comment wasn't even mentioned. It also want treated from a theoretically engaging/pleasing angle. It was a course that had to be taught rather than being loved of you know what I mean?
Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by buu700 on Friday September 20, 2019 @09:23PM (#21032870)
This is the first I've heard of EUV, so I don't have an informed opinion of it at all, but some quick googling shows that Intel will be using it for their 7nm process.

Does this mean that Intel's "7nm" should be considered roughly equivalent with TSMC's "3nm"? And who's typically considered to have the lead on fab tech nowadays?

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by tpurves on Friday September 20, 2019 @09:38PM (#21032931)
The leadership has definitely shifted to Taiwan. TSMC 7nm is roughly equivalently to intel 10nm. At leastTSMC first version of 7nm. But TSMC is now well in to ramping their 2nd/3rd iterations of 7nm. And ramping 5nm soon-ish, now this news on 3nm.And Intel has stumbled badly on 10nm, they are now years behind where they wanted to be. Intel are still launching new high end skus on 14nm through 2020. They are shipping 10nm in some volume, but with evident problems still on frequency binning and yield.
Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by wmf on Friday September 20, 2019 @09:36PM (#21032924)
Intel 7 nm ~= TSMC 5 nm.

TSMC is definitely in the lead; maybe Samsung is #2.

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/7_nm_lithography_process

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by lawrenceyan on Friday September 20, 2019 @11:29PM (#21033308)
I would rank it probably as: 1) TSMC 2) Samsung 3) Intel

AMD now divested into Global Foundries used to be on there as well, but they're pretty much dead in the water at this point. Both AMD and Nvidia use TSMC now actually. It's kind of funny that Intel is the only remaining foundry within the United States at this point except for maybe Texas Instruments, which lets be honest, doesn't really count.

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by throwaway2048 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @12:14AM (#21033472)
Global foundries still does plenty of production, most chip production doesn't occur at cutting edge nodes.
Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by stjohnswarts on Saturday September 21, 2019 @01:16AM (#21033647)
You're exactly right. There's a lot of money to be made outside of 3/7/10nm. I'm not sure why geeks get hooked on having the smallest/biggest or nothing and assuming anything else is failure
Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by rowanG077 on Sunday September 22, 2019 @01:42PM (#21042695)
It's because it's immensely cool what humanity can continue to achieve.
Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by jdietrich on Saturday September 21, 2019 @02:42AM (#21033891)
>most chip production doesn't occur at cutting edge nodes

Of course, but the margins are much better on cutting-edge nodes. Being second-to-market on a node doesn't save you much on capital costs, but you have to compete harder on wafer pricing. TSMC have about 5x the revenues of GF and the gap is widening.

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by baybal2 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @04:03AM (#21034097)
> Of course, but the margins are much better on cutting-edge nodes.

No, not anymore for at least a decade, and this is the very reason GloFo bailed out on the "Arms Race." Extreme capex with uncertain payback times looked very scary to their investors.

TSMC 7FF will only break even next year.

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by kingosticks on Saturday September 21, 2019 @07:52AM (#21034761)
>TSMC 7FF will only break even next year.

I've no idea if that's true but assuming it is, then from next year it's pure profit and they are the big fish in a pond of 2 (or 3?) fish with no new fish in sight. People will be using this process for years and years to come. With so little competition at 7nm and the high barriers to entry (even over time) they can surely maintain their margins for much longer than at previous nodes. I'm not saying bailing wasn't the right decision for Global Foundries and the risk might be higher now, but so the rewards.

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by PeCaN on Saturday September 21, 2019 @05:49AM (#21034397)
I don't think Texas Instruments deserves to be counted out. Their revenue last year was greater than Nvidia. Given that the margins on microcontrollers and DSPs are not nearly as large as on GPUs, they're shipping a lot of chips.

Granted I have no idea what their process node is, which they don't advertise anywhere presumably because people buying microcontrollers and DSPs do not really care about an arbitrary silicon feature size number. It's probably not cutting edge, but they're a big foundry regardless.

GlobalFoundaries is definitely not dead either. They even do 14nm which is hardly very outdated (and is probably the last practical node anyway).

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by magicalhippo on Saturday September 21, 2019 @06:38AM (#21034539)
ON Semiconductor has 700nm down to 180nm for hire in the US.

https://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/content.do?id=18397

https://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/content.do?id=16678

ST has been boasting about their new STM32G series as being their first 90nm product, though I doubt it'll start a nm race in the microcontroller world...

https://blog.st.com/stm32g0-mainstream-90-nm-mcu/

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by baybal2 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @08:10AM (#21034835)
There are plenty of 40nm MCUs already
Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by magicalhippo on Saturday September 21, 2019 @09:01AM (#21035096)
I see Renesas has some[1], got any pointers to some others? Would be interesting to compare specs.

[1]: https://www.renesas.com/jp/en/about/press-center/news/2018/n...

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by baybal2 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @09:23AM (#21035222)
ESP32, gigadevices, some nuvotons

Correction, gigadevices are still at 55

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by magicalhippo on Saturday September 21, 2019 @01:39PM (#21036732)
Well there ya go. Been using the ESP32 for a while, yet blissfully ignorant of it being a 40nm device. Though I guess that explains how they can get all that SRAM in at that price point?
Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by evancox100 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @09:52AM (#21035370)
The word "foundry" refers specifically to a company that manufactures others' chip designs for them, such as TSMC. Intel discontinued it's foundry business AFAIK.

The more general word would be "fab", which is any semiconductor manufacturing facility.

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by lawrenceyan on Saturday September 21, 2019 @07:22PM (#21038537)
Oh wow, I wasn't aware of that. Intel really has fallen quite low. I worry about it's future as AMD, Nvidia, and TSMC pull away at it from all sides.
Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by therealcamino on Saturday September 21, 2019 @11:19AM (#21035861)
> It's kind of funny that Intel is the only remaining foundry within the United States at this point

Samsung Austin is in Texas.

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by xxxpupugo on Saturday September 21, 2019 @01:38AM (#21033703)
Intel doesn't have anything 7nm yet, there is nothing to consider in the first place.

They failed hard at their 10nm process, and are still struggling to recover from that.

TSMC is the the indisputable leader on fab technology at the moment

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by emn13 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @06:08AM (#21034444)
EUV is just one aspect of the process, and so far none of the lithographies are fully EUV anyhow (only using that on a few layers)... I'm not that well informed but I'd guess by 3nm it'd be fully EUV? Regardless; it's just one technique.

Just because a bike has a few carbon fiber spokes doesn't mean it's the same as another bike with a few carbon fiber spokes. The rest matters too, not least of which the other spokes ;-) and there are probably differences between carbon fiber spokes too!

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by atq2119 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @10:25AM (#21035551)
Chips are built in layers, with the actual transistors being in the (lower) base layers and the wiring being the (upper) metal layers. The metal layers themselves form a stack with layers with thin wires at the bottom and layers with very wide wires at the top. These wide wires are used because they have less resistance and therefore allow faster and longer-range data transmission across the chip. They are wide enough that EUV won't be used there for a long time (if ever).
Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by emn13 on Monday September 23, 2019 @02:41AM (#21046454)
But even the base layers aren't all EUV yet, at least not in the first gen EUV-enabled processes, or is that a misunderstanding?

At least I thought DUV was still in use in combination with (not entirely replaced by) EUV.

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by atq2119 on Monday September 23, 2019 @07:28AM (#21047827)
Yes, that was precisely my point: a mix of EUV and DUV is used because the upper layers don't need EUV and DUV is cheaper and more mature.

Furthermore, it seems likely that the uppermost layers will never use EUV and that therefore a mix of EUV and DUV will always be used, indefinitely. This seems likely unless EUV surprisingly becomes much cheaper so that unifying on a single technology becomes worth it, or unless both EUV and DUV are replaced by something else entirely.

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by BubRoss on Saturday September 21, 2019 @12:16AM (#21033482)
That sounds like saying two people will draw lines that have the same width because they use the same ink.
Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by ethbro on Friday September 20, 2019 @09:31PM (#21032898)
No. And anyone but Intel.
Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by tus88 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @04:51AM (#21034237)
Are there any photos of these manufacturing machines? They sound amazing.
Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by rbinv on Friday October 04, 2019 @06:25AM (#21156312)
Here's a talk that's pretty mind-boggling, too:

Indistinguishable From Magic: Manufacturing Modern Computer Chips

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGFhc8R_uO4

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by smueller1234 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @05:34AM (#21034361)
Try searching for EUV and ASML, that's the largest manufacturer of these machines.

Marketing video that has a bunch of nonsense and a few interesting shots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL3TYXr52BY

Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by tus88 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @06:56AM (#21034586)
I am a little bit curious...if ASML makes the machines, why is TSMC taking credit for 3nm development? Or are the machines not fully developed out of the box and need more work to achieve different nodes?
Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by deugtniet on Saturday September 21, 2019 @07:18AM (#21034640)
My guess is the following: ASML produces the lithography machines, and TSMC/Samsung/<chipmaker> uses them in mass production. What I hear from the Dutch news is that the development process is very much a cooperation between different companies. What works in ASMLs lab will likely need a lot of tweaking before it can be used in mass production.
Re:TSMC: 3nm EUV Development Progress Going Well by smueller1234 on Saturday September 21, 2019 @08:11AM (#21034844)
That's exactly right. This is as much science as it's engineering!