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Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by opportune on Friday September 13, 2019 @04:37PM (#20966248)
If organic food actually had a noticeably higher mineral count than nonorganic, I would start eating it. But I don’t see why organic food would actually have more minerals. Organic doesn’t mean healthier it just means that it uses different kinds of pesticides, to my knowledge
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by simonsarris on Friday September 13, 2019 @04:54PM (#20966427)
Adjacent: Butter/milk from grass-fed cows has a noticeably better amino acid profile

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10531600/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7905466/

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by oh_sigh on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:33PM (#20966834)
This makes sense, because grass and the alternatives(probably corn/oat meal) don't have the same nutritional profile. A more apt comparison might be whether cows which get sprayed with a manufactured anti-fly compound have a different nutritional profile than cows that are sprayed with, say, lavendar oil to keep the flies away.
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by taurath on Saturday September 14, 2019 @03:23AM (#20969418)
The biggest difference in food I’ve ever seen is eggs from pasture raised chickens vs farmed ones - it’s night and day.
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by all_usernames on Friday September 13, 2019 @04:51PM (#20966405)
Organic farming includes crop rotation, fertilizer, soil quality, and erosion control standards that would hypothetically affect mineral contents.

Monoculture (conventional corn or soybean for example) uses huge amounts of synthetic fertilizer to increase yields per acre far beyond what the soil can naturally sustain. Wide swaths of American farmland has lost literally feet of topsoil over the past 50 years. The soil is largely sterile, and depleted of minerals. Monoculture also means the ecosystem that can replenish the soil is absent.

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by wil421 on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:00PM (#20966505)
Corn and soybeans are most definitely rotated. Peanuts are a common nitrogen fixer and Alfalfa is great too.

>This crop rotation benefits both alfalfa and wheat/barley/corn. On the one hand, cereals tend to decrease the development of weeds, leaving the field free for the alfalfa cultivation. On the other hand, there are findings suggesting that corn following alfalfa yields approximately 10% more than corn following corn.[1]

[1]https://wikifarmer.com/alfalfa-crop-rotation/

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by 01100011 on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:44PM (#20966929)
Peanuts increase nitrogen and probably no nothing for micronutrients. They may allow time for the underlying rock to transfer minerals to the soil which are consumed more heavily by the opposing crops, but they probably won't do anything for the issue reported in TFA.

Having more corn doesn't mean that the corn or soil has more micronutrients. Corn is nitrogen heavy, so rotation makes sense if yields are all you care about.

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by bluGill on Friday September 13, 2019 @04:57PM (#20966463)
Farming has changed since the dust bowl of the 1930s. Soil has been lost, but conservation factors have been found. Farmers are now building topsoil. We can only build top soil by about 1mm/year so it takes a long time to get any measurable change (vs the rate of loss which was much higher).
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by driverdan on Friday September 13, 2019 @07:56PM (#20967860)
> Organic farming includes crop rotation, fertilizer, soil quality

No, that's not what it means. Farmers producing food that meets the "organic" label may follow those practices but it's not a requirement.

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by robbiep on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:58PM (#20967045)
> Organic farming includes crop rotation, fertilizer, soil quality, and erosion control standards that would hypothetically affect mineral contents.

So does ‘conventional’ farming

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by AdamN on Friday September 13, 2019 @06:11PM (#20967157)
That's not totally true. I remember as a kid going to my grandfather's farm in Iowa and there would be an alfalfa rotation every 6 years I believe. Now they don't bother with that anymore since the fertilizers/seeds and other treatments mean that the low value alfalfa no longer needs to be in the mix.

Fertilizer is like doping. It works! But it comes at a long term cost. Anyway, now we can go down two paths, hyper-modern indoor farming which is expanding in Europe and organic farming that is growing in the US and Europe. Conventional industrial farming is going to get hit from both sides.

Also, the big things keeping corn going is sugar duties and ethanol subsidies. Without those, alot of the crop would disappear.

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by robbiep on Friday September 13, 2019 @11:48PM (#20968812)
I have no idea how old you are but the truth is farming techniques have changed significantly, even in the last 20 years. Nowdays if you don't consider yourself a steward of the land then you aren't doing the right thing by it.

My family are farmers in Australia. We are currently going through the worst drought we have ever had. We've had 7 inches of rain this year vs our annual rainfall of 26 inches. We are still growing a (very small) crop. This is possible because of soil conservation, no-till agriculture, and having healthy soil that conserves moisture.

Farmers who haven't adopted these techniques are bankrupt.

in the US and Europe, it is possible to not engage in best practice farming techniques, because government subsidies (20 Bn USD in America, 59 Bn Euro in the EU) remove the competitive pressures that that force best practice (it really isn't as simple as 'just forcing more production out of the soil by adding more fertilizer_.

Yes, of course there are still farmers not following best practice. It's a normal distribution

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by sooheon on Saturday September 14, 2019 @12:57AM (#20968998)
> Farmers who haven't adopted these techniques are bankrupt.

If only the world were just. As you say, countries with legislature captured by farming lobbies are no longer subject to survival pressures.

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by all_usernames on Friday September 13, 2019 @04:58PM (#20966478)
Can't imagine why this was downvoted.
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by colechristensen on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:11PM (#20966616)
Because it is inaccurate.
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by phs318u on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:21PM (#20966720)
Please point out the inaccuracies.
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by pasabagi on Friday September 13, 2019 @04:38PM (#20966270)
Presumably, using natural fertilizers would make a difference, as you'd expect a wider range of minerals than in straight haber-process fertilizer. I don't know if natural fertilizers are always a requirement for organic food, though.
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Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by all_usernames on Friday September 13, 2019 @04:53PM (#20966422)
Ten thousand years of agriculture is an assumption?
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by jjoonathan on Friday September 13, 2019 @04:57PM (#20966462)
People have put up with a lot of shit -- literal and metaphorical -- over the last ten thousand years. I don't understand the assumption that it simply must be better than anything chemistry has to offer, and I find the aversion to measurement and control inherently suspicious.
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by defterGoose on Friday September 13, 2019 @06:50PM (#20967462)
The problem with how you're framing this is that the scientific methods that go into such developments don't take into account certain "externalities". Measurement and control can only be exercised inasmuch as you can understand the totality of the system. In this case: broader effects on human health and ecosystems. As someone with a strong scientific background, it sometimes seems to me that the science and engineering of the past couple centuries has been so focused on the intricacies of specific problems that they haven't left their practitioners enough leeway to consider their place in the constellation of human activity. I'm not saying that there would have been another way to accomplish these feats, but that the problems are so difficult that it's left to other (sometimes non-scientific) people to evaluate their value to society.
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by jjoonathan on Sunday September 15, 2019 @06:25PM (#20979817)
Of course. I'd never suggest that soil science is complete or perfect -- but it's at least falsifiable. It can be meaningfully discussed, debated, compared, reproduced (or not), and improved. Insofar as alternative strategies can be held to that minimal standard, I absolutely agree that we should welcome them.

However, there's a lot of non-falsifiable marketing woo out there, and it needs to be held accountable for that deficiency. If we don't, the woo wins every time, because it can't be held accountable for its problems, and we lose our ability to collectively learn and improve.

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by fragmede on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:31PM (#20966819)
No one is saying don't measure things. Fertilizer doesn't come from mysticism and homepathy but from science - make a guess (hypothesis) and test to see if it works. The issue is that we've focused on volume of output from a field, rather than mineral content of vegetables, which is far harder to measure.
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by tmp190914pn2 on Friday September 13, 2019 @10:30PM (#20968564)
The problem is one of underestimating the vastness of what we don't yet understand. We know extensively (nearly completely) about physics and basic chemistry at the unit level. As we increase the complexity, we know less and less. Protein folding, hormone interactions, DNA, getting there but lots of unknowns. Go up another few levels and you get to entire organisms like yeasts, which we can model reasonably well. Plants and their soil environment is several levels of magnitude more complex yet.

Using shit will get you an outcome you can count on. Trying to formulate things otherwise is sure to get whatever you are testing for, but likely to miss something important that we won't understand for years to come. That's happened more times than I'd care to count.

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by salawat on Friday September 13, 2019 @10:40PM (#20968598)
The idea being that Nature (more specifically evolution/natural selection) has demonstrated a remarkable tendency to converge on closed-cycle ecosystems when left to her/their own devices.

An idiom about never taking down a fence one knows not the provenance or reason for comes to mind.

Not that I'm saying I entirely agree with the viewpoint myself, but the rate of catastrophic unintended consequences we facilitate (I.e biodiversity crisis, creation of superbugs, introduction of invasive species) through artificial selection pressures tends to elicit pause at the suggestion we just "toss some minerals in and be done with it".

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by phs318u on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:16PM (#20966677)
> I find the aversion to ... control inherently suspicious.

Interesting. Could you please expand on that? Personally, I find the desire to control inherently suspicious.

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by jnbiche on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:55PM (#20967006)
I'd assume he/she means control in the engineering sense of the word: testing and inspecting.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/control

Merriam Webster says that meaning (definition 1a) of the word "control" is archaic, but I still hear it used from time to time. It's commonly used in a number of European languages.

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by nitrogen on Friday September 13, 2019 @09:00PM (#20968185)
Could also be in the sense of "control theory", where a feedback loop like measure->analyze->predict->change->repeat is applied.
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by Dylan16807 on Friday September 13, 2019 @08:44PM (#20968119)
People drank river water for ten thousand years, but most of that is very far from clean/good.

Manure works fine. That doesn't mean it's anywhere near optimal.

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by spenczar5 on Friday September 13, 2019 @04:50PM (#20966388)
Why do you prefer that? I don’t particularly care either way, so blanket-preferring man-made chemical fertilizers strikes me as odd.
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by jjoonathan on Friday September 13, 2019 @04:51PM (#20966403)
Preferring measurability strikes you as odd?
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by oh_sigh on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:34PM (#20966841)
You can't miss what you can't measure.
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by pasabagi on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:12PM (#20966634)
For what it's worth, I totally agree. Without artificial fertilizer, half the world would starve. I don't think that kind of process makes sense within the context of capitalism, though. One obvious driver in the downward nutritional trend is the fact that faster-growing, larger, longer-lasting vegetables are better products, even if they taste worse and do less for the body. The problem with products is they're optimized for sale, not for use. Adding in extra nutrients is unlikely to improve the product, since it would increase costs.
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by primroot on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:53PM (#20966992)
> faster-growing, larger, longer-lasting vegetables are better product

Whatever product fits into the economies of scale, and selective commoditization solely for the sake of profit concentration not nutrition or environment.

But back to the idea of measuring everything. These are the counterpoints I can think about regarding measuring and controling:

* Measuring and controlling cost resources, some less, some more. E.g. It is easier to measure yields than to measure nutrition.

* There is imperfect knowledge on how to respond (control) after a given measurement, or even what measurements are important. E.g. Premature optimization, Goodhart's law, lack of certainty regarding nutrition.

* There are conflicting interests on what the result of controlling should be. E.g. more profits or more nutrition?

* Under appropriate circumstances systems can respond to variability or keep functioning without human control or input. This is resilience. E.g. Pollinating insects, edible weeds.

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by jonplackett on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:37PM (#20966874)
What, just because you're grossed out by poo?
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by LamaOfRuin on Friday September 13, 2019 @04:41PM (#20966296)
https://www.ams.usda.gov/publications/content/introduction-o...

>Soil Fertility: Crops more easily resist disease, survive drought, and tolerate insects when grown in good soil. Organic crop producers build soil quality by adding compost, animal manures, or green manures. As soil organisms break down these inputs, they convert nutrients into forms plants can absorb and create humus that sustains soil quality. Organic producers must not apply sewage sludge or biosolids to soil. Additionally, organic crop producers use cover crops to protect the soil from wind and water erosion. Soil-conserving practices include the use of cover crops, mulches, conservation tillage, contour plowing, and strip cropping.

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by bluGill on Friday September 13, 2019 @04:54PM (#20966431)
There is nothing about organic that means it builds soil. Conventional farmers are adapting the same practices. In many cases conventional farming with "chemicals" does better: because of roundup a cover crop can be applied much easier - you can kill it when you are done vs having to plow it up (plowing is a horrible thing to do to soil). I find it amusing they separate "sewage sludge" from manure as if they are not the same thing.
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by throwaway66920 on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:12PM (#20966632)
They are not the same thing. Manure is animal poop. Sewage sludge is the output of our sewers. Despite our best efforts to filter this, there is a lot more than poop in there. Heavy metals, drugs, etc.
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by briantakita on Friday September 13, 2019 @07:13PM (#20967627)
While there are many benefits to unfettered trade, a downside is lack of quality control of the inputs into the system. Garbage in, Garbage out...
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by AlanYx on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:11PM (#20966620)
"But I don’t see why organic food would actually have more minerals."

It could be the opposite too. There's some evidence that, in some cases, purely hydroponic greenhouse-grown produce, which often qualifies and is sold as "organic", has fewer nutrients than soil-grown produce.

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by wil421 on Friday September 13, 2019 @04:43PM (#20966318)
I think you’re forgetting about fertilizer. You can’t spray the common green fertilizer on Organic crops.

Some organic fertilizers I’ve used at my home garden: bone meal, blood meal, fish emulsion and egg shell.

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by jacobwilliamroy on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:10PM (#20966602)
Organic particularly means "no roundup". Non-organic crops tend to be round-up resistant strains. If the seed engineers for said strains weren't being careful, they could have affected other aspects of the seed's physiology while selecting for round-up resistance.

One concrete example is how certain modern strains of apple seeds have weaker dormancy, causing imbibing and radicand emergence to occur prematurely, usually before the apple is even eaten. Such changes are an unintended consequence of human selection for size. It's possible that the tinkering required to increase plant vigor in the presence of non-organic pesticides has a greater adverse effect on mineral content. Though there are lots of other variables to consider as well such as soils, fertilizers, storage and transportation, the positioning of plants, whether they are able to share nutrients.

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by Obi_Juan_Kenobi on Friday September 13, 2019 @06:00PM (#20967065)
It's going to be very much case-by-case. 'Organic' is a very big tent, with lots of different practices. Some is, as you say, quite conventional but with different chemical use. But organic can also incorporate other sustainable farming practices that are more likely to result in real differences.
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by legulere on Friday September 13, 2019 @04:50PM (#20966396)
Slower growth through less fertilizer (including CO2), leads to a higher mineral rate if I remember correctly
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by foofoo55 on Friday September 13, 2019 @04:59PM (#20966491)
Minerals need to be in the ground before they can get into the plant. The depletion of soil & vegetable quality has been going on for years. This isn't the first study on the topic by a long shot. [1]

[1] - https://www.vitacost.com/blog/food-nutrition/nutrition/how-i...

Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by koolba on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:01PM (#20966512)
That sounds reasonable if the absorption rate is not uniform. Any source for this?
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by lightedman on Friday September 13, 2019 @05:09PM (#20966589)
No, bioavailability of the nutrient is the only real thing that matters when it comes to fertilizers. Most organic fertilizers are not as bioavailable as even the most basic hydroponic fertilizer.
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by porknubbins on Saturday September 14, 2019 @02:47PM (#20972875)
Thats the legal requirement for organic but I’ve noticed it varies a lot in other aspects depending in the food. In US supermarkets standard food is generally big ag, bland, commodity level junk. I think organic has now become a byword for a subset of consumers who want to opt out of our low quality US food system and are willing to pay to do that. For example organic chicken seems to me to be often a different (smaller, better tasting) breed, free range, not water frozen, better packaged etc, not just organic, so that overall it is healthier in a variety of ways.
Re:Estimates that mineral levels in vegetables have dropped ... by bryanlarsen on Friday September 13, 2019 @06:25PM (#20967287)
I expect organic food to have a substantially lower mineral count. Organic farming uses a lot more tillage than conventional farming does.