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Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by CalRobert on Thursday August 29, 2019 @05:41PM (#20833991)
But the high speed of travel is effected by making virtually everything pavement. You're just traveling through nothing (well, asphalt).

Thanks to parking minimums the actual buildings you want to go to are _dwarfed_ by their parking lots.

https://usa.streetsblog.org/2014/06/13/the-whole-city-of-flo...

Also, forcing everything to be so far apart makes it nearly impossible to traverse on foot, serve with public transport, ride a bike to, etc.

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by nine_k on Thursday August 29, 2019 @09:08PM (#20835149)
New York begs to differ.

Because of high city density, I can walk to nearly every destination of day-to-day shopping or services. I can commute in 30-40 minutes from (more) affordable Brooklyn to job-packed Manhattan.

I can take a train if I want to read, or a bike if I want to enjoy the view.

Car traffic is pretty slow here, admittedly. But I need a car maybe once or twice a month, and Lyft provides it.

The cost of it living in an apartment, and not your own house with a lawn to tend. I'm fine with that.

Unfortunately, the US lacks another such city, except maybe Chicago. Most US cities are large sprawling villages around a small downtown where all buildings are offices and commerce, and nobody actually lives.

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by CalRobert on Friday August 30, 2019 @04:26AM (#20836763)
But.. we agree completely. I'm not sure I follow?

New York exists because it was built before we made it illegal to build cities like it.

One of the reasons we lack other cities like it is because we made it illegal to build large buildings without huge amounts of parking and gigantic roads.

Though, would Boston not qualify?

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by infinite8s on Friday August 30, 2019 @08:16AM (#20837794)
Also Philadelphia and parts of DC (basically most cities that started before cars were invented).
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by camiat on Thursday August 29, 2019 @09:50PM (#20835334)
>Most US cities are large sprawling villages around a small downtown where all buildings are offices and commerce, and nobody actually lives.

You just described San Jose, which brings us back into the Bay Area.

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by Domenic_S on Friday August 30, 2019 @02:01AM (#20836269)
San Jose has 4 high rise residential towers downtown: https://www.highrises.com/san-jose/high-rise-condos/
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by CalRobert on Friday August 30, 2019 @04:27AM (#20836770)
Is this meant to be a high number or a low number? It seems quite low to me for a city of over a million people.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by vokep on Thursday August 29, 2019 @06:16PM (#20834253)
This. And its depressing. A walkable city is much easier to be in a good mood in than a car-centric city.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by ovi256 on Friday August 30, 2019 @07:54AM (#20837669)
>much easier to be in a good mood in

Is that for you, or for the average person, or for most persons ? If not the last, it's just a personal opinion, and a possible typical mind fallacy.

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by boomlinde on Friday August 30, 2019 @09:33AM (#20838409)
Consider the health implications of effects of motor traffic.

Noise pollution exposure is known to be associated with stress, raised blood pressure, memory loss, nervousness and depression.

Congested traffic is associated with stress and aggression, even domestic violence.

Air pollution is associated with perceived annoyance, not to mention all manner of medical conditions that have (IMO) obvious mood implications (COPD can be a real downer).

As a matter of opinion it seems obvious to me that a space designed for cars is not as comfortable to people as a space designed for people. As a matter of statistics, there are a lot of associations between motor traffic and poor mood, and illnesses with mood implications.

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by CalRobert on Friday August 30, 2019 @08:14AM (#20837777)
Well, add me and everyone who visited me in the centre of Dublin to the list.

If nothing else, inhaling less poison and, crucially, hearing less engine noise helps.

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by heymijo on Friday August 30, 2019 @08:19AM (#20837809)
This is a good question and one that should be applied to the OPs comment that kicked off this thread.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by mehhh on Thursday August 29, 2019 @06:02PM (#20834158)
Cities including Kent, WA mandate a 60/40 split if parking to building area, enforcing cars are the only practical transport option.

This equation has shifted due to eBikes, as they can blow past the snarled traffic on the handful of roads that connect the area, but it still leaves elders, youngsters and the infirm housebound.

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by tjr225 on Thursday August 29, 2019 @09:51PM (#20835340)
Used to work in Kent. Loved my job, hated that awful town.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by seanmcdirmid on Thursday August 29, 2019 @10:31PM (#20835517)
Everything I know about Kent I learnt by watching Almost Live (eg https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6JOQbwVJjxY). Seems to be a worse version of Renton.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by novok on Thursday August 29, 2019 @06:24PM (#20834310)
If your already in a mobility scooter, I could see it being modified to work in ebike mode. In a way, it's even more convenient for you because you don't have to lock it up or park it anywhere.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by mehhh on Friday August 30, 2019 @01:56AM (#20836256)
Mobility scooters make poor eBike platforms due to the direct electric drive, small radius tires. Hitting 10+mph in a mobility scooter is not likely to happen without serious modifications that are more costly than welding two eBikes together.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by fanf2 on Friday August 30, 2019 @06:41AM (#20837354)
The world record is over 70mph but yes, seriously modified http://www.colinfurze.com/fastest-scooter.html
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by novok on Friday August 30, 2019 @04:05AM (#20836692)
But you can foresee a mobility scooter that was designed to go 1-20mph comfortably? They take up so much space and weigh so much you could probably make them street legal electric motorbikes.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by pjc50 on Friday August 30, 2019 @06:13AM (#20837222)
Mobility scooters are designed to operate in pedestrian spaces, including indoors. Ones capable of 20mph would probably get banned from pedestrian areas, indoor operation, malls etc for the same reason you wouldn't let someone ride an electric motorbike up the corridors.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by CalRobert on Friday August 30, 2019 @04:29AM (#20836779)
Addendum - this video (shared recently in another HN discussion) is a _fantastic_ illustration of the problems of parking minimums, made with Cities: Skylines

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lvUByM-fZk

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by vonmoltke on Friday August 30, 2019 @08:36AM (#20837908)
> Thanks to parking minimums the actual buildings you want to go to are _dwarfed_ by their parking lots.

Has anyone put together a summary of parking minimum ordinances are across the US?

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by hnal943 on Thursday August 29, 2019 @05:49PM (#20834038)
Dense urban living also requires most of your surroundings to be pavement.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by MrAlex94 on Thursday August 29, 2019 @07:25PM (#20834667)
Have you never been to old European cities? They’re beautiful and dense. Hell, even London has many parts that are dense compared to US cities yet are beautifully old and green (like Hampstead and Highgate!).

At the end of it, we live in a world where every bit of profit matters more than earning slightly less and having something better looking.

I mean let’s compare Los Angeles County vs Greater London: 4,058 sq mi vs 606 sq mi Density 2,100/sq m vs 14,550/sq mi.

I mean the difference is insane! And ignoring the towers springing up all over London because of greedy developers, London doesn’t feel all that cramped or as if there’s concrete everywhere.

US cities need better public transport and more dense areas. Leave the rest to nature!

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by CalRobert on Friday August 30, 2019 @04:32AM (#20836793)
What business _isn't_ greedy? Do we complain about "greedy greengrocers"?

You need to build systems where people trying to maximize profit isn't a problem. It's not something we've completely figured out (see: externalities)

Ironically if greedy developers got their way in the US we'd have more low or no-parking buildings, as evidenced by the fact that they weren't build "enough" (whatever that means) parking until the law forced them to.

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by WalterBright on Thursday August 29, 2019 @08:35PM (#20834998)
> greedy developers

What's wrong with people building things that others want to buy?

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by MrAlex94 on Friday August 30, 2019 @03:44AM (#20836616)
Here (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/29/skyscr...) is a good article that explains it well.

Plus, I don’t think housing should really be left to the free market. This is the UK after all, social housing is one of the best things we’ve ever done (IMO).

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by WalterBright on Friday August 30, 2019 @05:23AM (#20837011)
The article is full of bombastic statements like "They are loved by virility-obsessed mayors."

I.e. the article isn't credible.

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by MrAlex94 on Friday August 30, 2019 @07:31AM (#20837569)
The author is previous deputy chairman of the National Trust and English Heritage.

A quick search would’ve shown you who the author of the column is.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Jenkins

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by WalterBright on Friday August 30, 2019 @03:17PM (#20841685)
Doesn't matter who he is. If he wants his article to be taken seriously, he shouldn't fill it with unsupportable bombast.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by abdullahkhalids on Friday August 30, 2019 @02:14AM (#20836305)
People buy things without accounting for externalities (which were not forcefully included in the price by govt regulation). Some buildings that people want to buy have negative effects on the rest of the people living in the city. Hence, there is an argument to be made that there is something wrong with certain kinds of buildings. These might be super high rises or it might be a polluting factory in the middle of the city.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by ambernightcrush on Thursday August 29, 2019 @09:28PM (#20835249)
What's wrong is that there is no profit in selling real estate and housing at below market value, by definition. And in places like the bay, market rents are not affordable to an increasingly large population. Hence, the greedy perception. Developers are acting in self interest and the old system of financing predicated continuous wage growth.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by MrAlex94 on Friday August 30, 2019 @03:47AM (#20836626)
Sorry I’m talking in relation to the UK. It’s a much different reason for high prices here than somewhere such as SFO.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by WalterBright on Thursday August 29, 2019 @10:19PM (#20835463)
Not building towers will result in even higher prices for housing.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by MrAlex94 on Friday August 30, 2019 @07:27AM (#20837555)
At least in the UK the price per square foot greatly increases after each new build that replaces an older one. Surely prices would go down? You can even verify yourself. Go on a property portal such as Zoopla or Rightmove and compare the cost of a new build and old build in the same area. I have yet to find one where the new build is cheaper per square foot.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by WalterBright on Friday August 30, 2019 @03:20PM (#20841711)
Prices will still rise if demand is increasing faster than supply. If supply remained constant, the prices would rise even faster.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by CalRobert on Friday August 30, 2019 @11:05AM (#20839310)
Of course, people like newer things. But how was the cost of surrounding old builds affected?
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by MrAlex94 on Friday August 30, 2019 @12:11PM (#20839939)
> But how was the cost of surrounding old builds affected?

Not sure I understand?

Edit: Anyway, the poster I was replying to was making the point that these towers are alleviating demand and subsequently pushing prices down, which is not happening.

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by CalRobert on Monday September 02, 2019 @06:24AM (#20858088)
I meant "people who might have bought an old home instead went to the new one".

If I have a market of 10 dumpy old cars, people will pay X for it. If I destroy 1 dumpy old car and add 2 brand new cars, people will pay more for the new cars (like your new building) but the dumpy old ones will be slightly cheaper.

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by WalterBright on Friday August 30, 2019 @03:22PM (#20841726)
That is not what I wrote. I said the prices with the tower would be lower than prices without the tower, which is not the same as saying prices would decline.

I.e. relative vs absolute.

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by MrAlex94 on Friday August 30, 2019 @04:16PM (#20842229)
https://content.knightfrank.com/research/478/documents/en/20...

This research shows that there’s an average of 1.5% price increase per floor. Care to share a counter-claim source?

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by WalterBright on Friday August 30, 2019 @07:31PM (#20843662)
Increasing the supply of something simply does not cause price increases. If the price increases, it's because demand is increasing even faster than supply.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by MrAlex94 on Saturday August 31, 2019 @05:58AM (#20845467)
At this point there’s no way you aren’t pulling my leg. The research paper showed that increasing the amount of floors increases the price per floor. Are you saying that these towers control demand? So if they lower the amount of floors then suddenly demand is going down because they are cheaper?

Also I do hope you know the context of my posts relate to the UK market?

Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by CalRobert on Monday September 02, 2019 @06:23AM (#20858081)
People like living high above traffic. There's a reason penthouse apartments are at the top.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by MrAlex94 on Tuesday September 03, 2019 @01:34PM (#20868939)
Bar the main roads, there’s not a lot of traffic down residential streets in London.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by jcranmer on Thursday August 29, 2019 @06:24PM (#20834313)
Compare a picture of Kansas City to one of Manhattan. In Kansas City, there are entire city blocks in the middle of downtown solely dedicated to parking, and more blocks that are given to massive highways to move people downtown. In Manhattan, there is virtually no given space given to such endeavors.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by hnal943 on Thursday August 29, 2019 @07:05PM (#20834561)
Manhattan's landscape is concrete and (steel and glass). It's hardly pastoral.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by crooked-v on Thursday August 29, 2019 @08:57PM (#20835100)
Sure, but literally everyone in Manhattan is only a short subway ride away from Central Park.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by seanmcdirmid on Thursday August 29, 2019 @10:33PM (#20835522)
NYC has a surprising number of parks.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by cylinder on Thursday August 29, 2019 @11:40PM (#20835809)
Not Manhattan. Outside of Central Park there's not much green space at all. Midtown south, Flatiron, Downtown, etc have nothing! They may have paved urban parks but there's simply not enough green space per person, and that's a choice they've made historically based on greed. People need accessible green space for use on a daily basis near their homes, not requiring long subway rides back uptown to Central Park.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by cryptonector on Friday August 30, 2019 @01:58AM (#20836263)
There are many small parks in Manhattan in addition to Central Park.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by NovemberWhiskey on Friday August 30, 2019 @09:03AM (#20838134)
The Battery Conservancy has 25 acres of parkland downtown at the tip of lower Manhattan; most of which is green.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by seanmcdirmid on Thursday August 29, 2019 @11:58PM (#20835877)
Midtown had a bunch of small parks nestled between roads in lots of places near Columbia U.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by cylinder on Friday August 30, 2019 @01:12AM (#20836101)
Columbia U is pretty far uptown, not midtown. Small pocket parks don't really cut it, people need to be able to go for walks under trees and maybe a sporting field or two.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by the_gastropod on Friday August 30, 2019 @09:01AM (#20838113)
The Flatiron building is literally one block away from Madison Square Park...
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by cylinder on Sunday September 01, 2019 @07:51PM (#20855736)
I am well familiar with my old stomping ground Madison Square Park. Not what I'd call a proper park by any means. It's a series of benches around a lawn. Nice to sit and people watch, but that's about it.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by maccard on Thursday August 29, 2019 @08:07PM (#20834853)
It absolutely doesn't. It does if you mandate the only transport option to be low density, but pretty much every European city begs to differ
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by crooked-v on Thursday August 29, 2019 @08:51PM (#20835063)
Paris is one of the highest-density cities in the world... and even then, the city by area is more than half parkland.
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by novok on Thursday August 29, 2019 @06:24PM (#20834315)
Go to tokyo, it's less paved than LA in many places!
Re:The Mobility Trap: Why We'll Never Fix Congestion by Spee... by mrmonkeyman on Friday August 30, 2019 @02:36AM (#20836378)
Florence, like Rome and all cities in Italy are dirty, chaotic cesspools with the few remaining crumbling ruins to remind us of a better time.