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Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by 5440 on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @10:35AM (#20820186)
My ring camera caught a murderer breaking a door down last year and it's been a headache for me ever since. Even though I didnt actually see the murder,I've been called to several depositions and had to take three unpaid weeks off of work because of trial stuff. It's so frustrating. All I say everytime, is "Yes, I own the camera" I regret ever buying it at this point.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by paublyrne on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @10:40AM (#20820232)
At the risk of being glib, your headache and frustrations seem trivial in the context of the crime you're mentioning.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by mikestew on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @10:50AM (#20820332)
At equal risk of being glib, I don't think the purchase of consumer electronics should put you on the hook for weeks of depositions for a crime you didn't personally witness. I believe that would the literal manifestation of "that's not what I signed up for". Here's the MP4 file, now go away.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by ghaff on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:45AM (#20820926)
What if you were a random witness? You didn't sign up for that either. You have certain civic obligations which are enforced by law. I assume in these types of cases, you could be held in contempt if you wouldn't respond voluntarily.

It's unfortunate for the person involved and the incentives in the system are such that no one is trying to make efficient use of their time. But that's pretty much the way it is.

It's not really that different from being seated on a multi-week jury trial much less a possibly multi-month grand jury.

Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by ixtli on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @12:21PM (#20821222)
Maybe we shouldn't construct a society where your obligations to your employer are at odds with you helping society find justice for a murder victim. This is a great example of how atomized our society has become.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by ghaff on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @12:32PM (#20821348)
I'm honestly not sure what that means.

Many large companies tend to be pretty flexible with respect to things like jury duty. But, to say that even a small business needs to keep paying full salary for someone who is out for weeks or longer (and even if they have to hire a temporary replacement) is probably not realistic.

Per diems for things like jury duty should arguably be higher. But there's no world in which, say, a Silicon Valley software developer is going to be paid their regular daily salary with benefits.

As I wrote elsewhere, it would be nice if everyone involved were more respectful of the time being put in by unpaid or nominally paid participants. But that's no one's priority.

Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by sdoering on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @12:47PM (#20821509)
In Germany the state pays your lost salary when you are required to be in court as a witness.

We don't have the American jury system so times in court tend to be way shorter. But non the less. If society here needs my support it is giving back something as well.

Not that in the one case were I was entitled to compensation I ever asked for it. Because I feel it was my civic duty. But then - I am in the lucky position to be able to afford this sentiment.

Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by anigbrowl on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:02PM (#20821676)
'atomization' describes a social phenomenon of mass strategic isolation, though one which requires additional reading rather than being easily definable here.

Anyway, why shouldn't a business of any size continue to pay people? Just treat employee absences as a minor insurable risk, or press for adequate compensation for witnesses and jurors by restructuring the tax system.

Passively accepting bad things guarantees you will get more of them.

Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by notJim on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @05:47PM (#20824354)
> But there's no world in which, say, a Silicon Valley software developer is going to be paid their regular daily salary with benefits.

Why not? The proportion of people involved in a trial at any given time must be so small that replacing their salaries would be a relatively minor drag on companies if it was distributed well.

Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by malandrew on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @05:12PM (#20824019)
What they should do is allow the business to deduct that employee's salary from the taxes they owe while that employee is fulfilling a public need.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by ixtli on Thursday August 29, 2019 @02:00PM (#20832009)
This is actually an interesting idea. I'd say (only half tongue-in-cheek) that then maybe we can tax companies heavily for all IP lawsuits they engage in so compensate for the massive money cost to citizens that the system of circular patent trolling creates.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by ixtli on Thursday August 29, 2019 @01:58PM (#20831980)
One thing i can say that i dont think was said here is that you're right that some large companies are very flexible in this way. It's a good thing we have their permission to participate in the justice system! In my experience, however, almost all smaller companies have a culture of sharing tips on how to avoid being selected for jury duty that is actively encouraged by ownership and management. It's worth remembering this when people issue blanket statements about how consumers should prefer small businesses over large ones because of some vague notion that they're more beneficial to "the community."
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by mikestew on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:50PM (#20822194)
What if you were a random witness?

I'm not, I'm a random person in possession of a consumer electronics device that might have a video recording of the crime in question. No need for depositions, everything I know is in this MP4 file, and now that I have transferred the file to you, LEO, you know everything I know. Further interrogation will gain you nothing but my contempt.

It's not really that different from being seated on a multi-week jury trial much less a possibly multi-month grand jury.

Forget ballparks, it's not even the same sport.

Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by posterboy on Saturday August 31, 2019 @05:48AM (#20845440)
The problem here is that the leave is unpaid.

I've been informed recently that the employer in Germany has to compensate for the leave and will be reimbursed later. This sounds too good to be true though.

Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by ryanlol on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @05:25PM (#20824122)
At the risk of being glib, I don’t think much can be done about the crime at this point.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by RandomBacon on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @10:49AM (#20820320)
I imagine if you saw the person enter the house and not your camera, the results would be similar: depositions, time away from work, etc?

The question is, in this particular case, did the camera help identify an otherwise unknown suspect?

Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by delfinom on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:23AM (#20820676)
That's not equivalent. In one case you need a human testifying because the memory of the events are stored in their brain that's inaccessible to any other form of retrieval besides giving a deposition.

In the other case, the camera caught it on a digital format thats accessible by literally anyone living in the 21st century.

Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by refurb on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:43AM (#20820905)
That's not how trials work.

Someone has to testify that yes, they installed the camera on X date, yes, the date/time stamp is accurate, yes, it was working the last time they checked, yes, the video in question was recovered, yes, the video was transferred to the prosecutors office, no, the video was not modified to the best of my recollection.

Saying "hey, I have this mp4 that proves the murder" doesn't work in court.

Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by anigbrowl on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:07PM (#20821719)
Cloud storage provides de facto answers to most of those questions as far as the property owner is concerned.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by refurb on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:31PM (#20821999)
How exactly? The cloud has a copy of a video from a camera with a given IP associated with a given account.

That doesn’t prove where the camera footage was taken. Or who owns it. Lots of unanswered questions that the defense could use to raise doubts about it.

Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by ghaff on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:24PM (#20821916)
Possibly.

The "issue" in this case is probably that the prosecutor wants to do everything in his power to maximize the probability of a successful prosecution based on the available evidence even if it means taking three weeks of someone's time rather than making do with a simple notarized statement.

And the defense wants to do everything is his power to throw roadblocks in the way of the prosecution even if it means wasting three weeks of some third party's time.

Nowhere are there any incentives to make things efficient for someone if doing so could hurt your case by even a little bit.

Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by posterboy on Saturday August 31, 2019 @05:52AM (#20845454)
Courts have this rigid rule that whitness must be given in court even if it had been given before, possibly in retrial, too.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by vgoh1 on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @10:50AM (#20820339)
Not sure what country you are in, but that's called civic duty, and helps society work.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by loteck on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:00AM (#20820446)
Why can't society compensate this person fairly for his help?
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by notJim on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @05:49PM (#20824374)
As others say, society does to some degree, but isn't the real compensation for such things living in a society where people help each other in these circumstances? Not everything has to be a financial transaction.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by garmaine on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:10AM (#20820548)
It can. He should be able to invoice the DA for his time. The taxpayers (society) foots the bill.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by threwawasy1228 on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:43AM (#20820906)
As someone who just served Jury Duty in the USA. I can tell you the 'bill' for my services was barely minimum wage.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by ghaff on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @12:10PM (#20821118)
Last time I got called for jury duty (but didn't get chosen), I forget what the per diem rate was but basically it wouldn't have covered parking (or at least not by much).
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by garmaine on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @12:54PM (#20821579)
Jury Duty is not the same as being served a subpoena for the prosecution.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by authoritarian on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @12:16PM (#20821178)
Fortunately it's incredibly easy to get eliminated during the selection process if you know how to answer the questions
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by xeromal on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:52PM (#20822221)
Then we end up with a jury that has only people that have nothing better to do
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by threwawasy1228 on Thursday August 29, 2019 @02:26AM (#20827150)
I purposefully decided not to attempt to use a bunch of excuses to get out of it actually, because I was interested in the experience.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by garmaine on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @01:03PM (#20821685)
And without lying / perjuring yourself either. Telling the selective truth is enough :)
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by Faaak on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:06AM (#20820506)
How is them going to court a civic duty ?

You could testify once that this is your camera and here are the mp4 files (and their sha sum). And that would be it.

Equally, technically they didn't see anything as the video caught by the camera could actually be made up.

Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by throwaway_law on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:30AM (#20820766)
>How is them going to court a civic duty ?

Imagine if it was you or a loved one that was murdered and a neighbor's camera caught the suspect breaking into the house.

>You could testify once that this is your camera and here are the mp4 files (and their sha sum). And that would be it.

This is just how the rules of evidence work (also equal protection and due process), you can't just submit video, there needs to be testimony to introduce the video into evidence. Further, the defendant has a constitutional right to cross examine the person who introduces the video into evidence.

>Equally, technically they didn't see anything as the video caught by the camera could actually be made up.

Yes, and the Defense will hammer this point home. You didn't see the murder right? If the video actually shows what it alleges to show, the defendant breaking into the home, you have no evidence the defendant actually killed the homeowner right? You have no evidence the defendant even confronted the deceased correct? Of course there are other questions about handling the video and chain of custody, but the obvious being was the video edited (by you or the police after turning it over to them)? Do you have a copy of the original video you turned over to police (is there a difference between the copies, etc...).

As another commented said there is no difference between the video and if you eye-witnessed the suspect entering the home, you would still testify one way or the other (including acknowledging you didn't see the suspect commit the murder and have no knowledge if the suspect committed the murder, its possible someone else could have broke in when you weren't watching, or around back, etc...)

Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by LorenPechtel on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @10:10PM (#20826051)
The idea of cross-examining the person who introduces security camera video doesn't really make much sense. If the camera actually witnessed the crime what could the installation possibly have to do with it? The only time it could be relevant is if the camera simply showed when/where the suspect was.

I would like to see the system modified somewhat--in criminal trials everyone has to disclose what they are going to present anyway. The other side should be required to indicate if and in what way they are going to challenge the evidence. If there's no dispute about where the camera is then nobody need be available to testify to where it is. (As it's cloud there's no issue of when.)

Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by throwaway_law on Thursday August 29, 2019 @08:45AM (#20828973)
>The idea of cross-examining the person who introduces security camera video doesn't really make much sense.

Well interestingly this is a major issue in red light camera cases. Initially as cities were implementing red light cameras, the ticket and court case were all essentially automated.

In many jurisdictions this was challenged on multiple grounds, but one of the biggest issues (which most courts tending to agree with) is violation of the defendants rights to cross examine the State's witness and improperly introducing the video into evidence (generally it was introduced by affidavit from some record keeper in the camera company).

Its really a fundamental rights issue.

Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by LorenPechtel on Saturday September 07, 2019 @10:46PM (#20908286)
That's basically a technicality. If the video clearly shows the entire offense (to me that would include showing the entire yellow so it can be measured against what it should have been) nothing else should matter.

On the other hand, if the camera doesn't show everything the camera software is in effect testifying--and it comes down to if there are any flaws in the software. The government does not have a good track record on this--breathalyzers inherently are relying on the software and the manufacturers won't permit examination (discovery refused, there goes the DUI case)--so in some places it's been declared unquestionable.

(Never mind that the breathalyzer inherently has a considerable error margin due to biology--the ratio between blood alcohol and breath alcohol varies from person to person. Quick screening test, fine, evidence for conviction--not in my book.)

Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by stephens_chris on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @10:59AM (#20820436)
In some societies, you are rewarded, or at least supported, in doing your civic duty. That's often not the case in other places. There can be a high cost.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by chrisdhoover on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @06:10PM (#20824556)
Except the civic institutions are corrupt and therefore the duty is voided.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by hanniabu on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:11AM (#20820571)
I don't see why this is necessary. If it's on camera why would it matter who it belongs to? Is some legal letter not sufficient? Something along the lines of "I, name, live at this address and own the device that captured said footage". It's not like it was a witness account or anything.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by Paul-ish on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:32AM (#20820793)
I wonder what a lawyer would say, but I suspect this has something to do with the right to cross examine evidence. It might be hearsay to just use a pre-recorded statement. If the defense thinks the evidence is bunk, they should be able to question 5440 about the camera. Cynically, this could also be a tactic using the right to cross examine to wear 5440 down. I'm not a lawyer though, so who knows.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by derefr on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:37AM (#20820848)
Not a pre-recorded statement; a notarized declaration letter. “At some point I declared in person, to a reliable witness, that I own this camera, and they wrote that down.”
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by refurb on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:44AM (#20820922)
How does the defense question the circumstances around the video if it's just a letter they sent in? Or should they just take the prosecutors word that the video is what they say it is?
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by hanniabu on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:47AM (#20820945)
It's a video, it can speak for itself
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by 5440 on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:15AM (#20820612)
Exactly my point. The prosecutor told me its because the defense is trying to dispute everything and get the footage removed from evidence.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by solotronics on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:18AM (#20820628)
If it was a family member of yours that was murdered wouldn't you want someone to help catch the person who did it?
[dead]
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by notJim on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @05:50PM (#20824383)
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by authoritarian on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @12:13PM (#20821143)
After providing the footage, if they tried to get me to take 3 unpaid weeks off work, I would tell them to kick rocks. If they want me to help them with their case at the expense of my job they need to compensate me for lost income.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by ghaff on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @12:19PM (#20821205)
In which case, you would probably be found in contempt of court and fined or arrested if a judge wanted to push the point.
[dead]
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by MaupitiBlue on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @11:48PM (#20826509)
I remember being 14.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by antihero on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @04:35PM (#20823724)
I mean at least you haven't been murdered.
Re:Ring has partnered with 400 police forces by diogenescynic on Wednesday August 28, 2019 @04:21PM (#20823623)
That seems like an incredibly selfish reaction. You're mad that you had to provide testimony about a neighbor's murder? How would you feel if your neighbors were complaining about helping with your murder investigation? And I say this as someone who recently had jury duty and watched dozens of people make fools of themselves because they simply didn't want to participate in their civil duty. This is what makes/breaks a society.