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Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by zip1234 on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:28AM (#20810617)
Bad for the environment as well for trans-pacific shipping to be cheaper
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by iNate2000 on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:32AM (#20810677)
Aren't ocean vessels one of the most efficient forms of transportation in existence?
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by LeifCarrotson on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:41AM (#20810815)
In terms of dollars per unit weight moved, yes. They are not only moving massive amounts of cargo with low drag, they're also relatively lightweight compared to the product being moved. Also, there's no maintenance cost to keeping a flat path across the Pacific like there is in keeping roads free of potholes.

In terms of environmental damage, not at all. Container ships burn some of the nastiest, most sulphrous and damaging forms of crude oil in existence, with little to no emissions controls.

I think rail transport is best, but I could be wrong.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by williamDafoe on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:57AM (#20811050)
A lot of Chinese ships burn spent USA motor oil (illegal to burn in the USA) on the way home, ergo, free trip home! And the entire smoke plume lands in the USA . .
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by La1n on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @12:56PM (#20811876)
Do you have a source for that, I can't seem to find a reliable one
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by wbl on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:49AM (#20810938)
Sulfur dioxide emissions at sea are not that damaging compared to in land. They did make some zero emission cargo ships but it was pretty expensive due to crew complement for the reactor.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by coolspot on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @02:06PM (#20812682)
Interesting. There is only one operational cargo ship powered by a nuclear reactor - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sevmorput
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by sabas_ge on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @02:37PM (#20813043)
Next year it will enter into force the IMO regulation on a global sulphur cap, vessels can only burn a low sulphur bunker (the fuel for a commercial ship). http://www.imo.org/en/MediaCentre/PressBriefings/Pages/13-su...
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by akvadrako on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @12:20PM (#20811367)
You are wrong. Even in terms of emissions ships are the most efficient way to transport goods, in terms of km-tonnes.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by nkurz on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @12:41PM (#20811646)
I appreciate that you cited a paper, but I think you are overstating. The paper discusses CO2 emissions, which indeed are lower for transport by ship than by trains. But the parent was talking about "environmental damage" from ships that burn the "nastiest, most sulphrous and damaging forms of crude oil", and thus was referring to pollutants other than just CO2.

This report, for instance (I have not read it completely) says "Rail is generally the cleanest mode of transport for most pollutants" and "Maritime shipping is one of the cleanest mode of freight transport, except for PM and specific sulphur oxide (SOx) emissions". While there is lots of emphasis currently on CO2 emissions, other pollutants are also worth considering.

https://www.eea.europa.eu/data-and-maps/indicators/specific-...

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by jopsen on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @01:28PM (#20812276)
Granted the US and EU could agree to regulate emissions from container shipping.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by woranl on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @01:55PM (#20812574)
UN is doing something already. By January 2020, the limit for Sulphur in fuel oil used on board ships operating outside designated emission control areas will be reduced to 0.50% m/m (mass by mass).

http://www.imo.org/en/mediacentre/hottopics/pages/sulphur-20...

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by keiferski on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:34AM (#20810705)
The shipping industry is responsible for a significant proportion of the global climate change problem. More than three percent of global carbon dioxide emissions can be attributed to ocean-going ships. This is an amount comparable to major carbon-emitting countries -- and the industry continues to grow rapidly.

In fact, if global shipping were a country, it would be the sixth largest producer of greenhouse gas emissions. Only the United States, China, Russia, India and Japan emit more carbon dioxide than the world’s shipping fleet. Nevertheless, carbon dioxide emissions from ocean-going vessels are currently unregulated.

https://eu.oceana.org/en/shipping-pollution-1

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by gruez on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @12:08PM (#20811178)
>The shipping industry is responsible for a significant proportion of the global climate change problem. More than three percent of global carbon dioxide emissions can be attributed to ocean-going ships.

According to wikipedia, ships account for 2.2%[1] of co2 emissions. However, the transportation sector as a whole accounts for 29% of co2 emissions. Considering how much ships move, that's pretty good.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_shippi...

[2] https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/sources-greenhouse-gas-emis...

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by _jgdh on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:48AM (#20810925)
Not really a helpful or fair comparison. Global shipping emits more carbon dioxide than India, but that's literally apples to oranges.

It might be easier for the shipping industry to reduce it's emissions, or it might be easier for India. The benefit(s) of India polluting is spread across 1.3 billion people. The beneficiaries of polluting by the shipping industry is presumably the whole world, though the benefits are unevenly spread. It might be easier or more impactful for one to reduce while the other doesn't, but again, we can't know without more data.

A better comparison would be between shipping and air freight. Or make the case that we don't need to ship if we can produce locally instead. Maybe it could be supplemented by saying that if the cost of the externality (pollution) was borne by the producer of the products, then it would incentivize local production.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by keiferski on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:54AM (#20811003)
> Or make the case that we don't need to ship if we can produce locally instead.

My impression was that this was the argument being made. Shipping emissions could be cut dramatically if more things were made close to their end destination.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by lumberingjack on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:50AM (#20810947)
4.5 million gallon tank 225 tons per day I can't believe people think their cars can even hold a candle to this type of fuel consumption.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by trickstra on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @12:16PM (#20811301)
There are much more cars, so yes, overall cars can definitely be consuming more fuel than ships.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by donaltroddyn on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:35AM (#20810732)
Once the packages reach a domestic port, they still have to compete the same domestic journey as a local package.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by docker_up on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @12:16PM (#20811291)
No. The 15 largest cargo ships produce more pollution than all the cars in the world combined.

http://www.industrytap.com/worlds-15-biggest-ships-create-mo...

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by DuskStar on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @01:26PM (#20812255)
For certain kinds of pollution, yes. By the same logic, so do nuclear reactors, since cars don't tend to release fission products (even if reactors do so very, very rarely)
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by eukaryote31 on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:35AM (#20810725)
Efficient per unit distance, yes , but they're also travelling more units of distance
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by isoprophlex on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:37AM (#20810749)
I don't know about that, I'm unqualified to answer. However, ocean liners do use very dirty fuels (compared to automobiles) and very dirty engines with respect to sulfur and nitrogen oxides emissions
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by lsllc on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @12:02PM (#20811114)
Except for the pollution. That bunker fuel is terribly dirty.

Athens Greece has a pall of smog over it mostly coming from the ships in the harbor as they sit there spewing columns of thick black smoke into the sky. I don't doubt some of the pollution is from vehicles, but it's pretty noticeable how the particulate smog starts in the harbor and moves inland.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by tantalor on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:39AM (#20810777)
Only compared to alternative forms of transportation for the same distance, like airplane.

Still, shorter is better.

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by TheSoftwareGuy on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:46AM (#20810882)
Perhaps, but the price of fuel already incentives shippers to use less of it. It might be better mpg to ship by sea but by shipping such a huge distance much of that may be negated
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by brightball on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:35AM (#20810729)
Not more efficient than trains. Environmentally, we'd all be better off if goods to the US were produced in Mexico and shipped into the US by train.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by Symmetry on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:47AM (#20810902)
Yes more efficient than trains, though only by a factor of 2 to 3. 0.209 to 0.35 mJ/tkm for rail versus 0.11 for ocean freight. Domestic water freight (river barges) is 0.16.

Road freight is 1.3 to 2.4 and air freight is 6.9 to 10.5 waaaay worse than any of these.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency_in_transport

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by jotm on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:39AM (#20810782)
Most efficient price/volume wise, and dirtiest, environment wise
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by jotm on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @04:30PM (#20814129)
https://transportgeography.org/?page_id=1762

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_tran...

I am trying really hard to not post a bunch of expletives here, too many people on HN downvote facts, even with sources (my fault for thinking everyone has a brain and can use Google or something). Wtf happened to this site...

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by ferongr on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @02:57PM (#20813249)
UPU shipping from China is actually "airmail".
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by decoyworker on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:34AM (#20810700)
I've even fantasized about a tax for the movement of goods no matter how they're moved or how carbon neutral the method.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by thfuran on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:41AM (#20810799)
For what purpose?
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by decoyworker on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:45AM (#20810876)
Not sure. I'ts an unfinished thought but something I've toyed with in my mind. Mostly because I prefer local and the movement of goods is unnecessary a lot of the time. Environmental reasons for the most part- moving unnecessary junk around the world is still excessive even if it's done efficiently.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by thfuran on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:49AM (#20810941)
Any tax beyond that which internalizes actual externalities will just decrease market efficiency, your opinion on what goods are 'unnecessary' and how far an object in a supply chain can move before it becomes 'excessive' notwithstanding. Companies don't ship goods around just for the hell of it; they do it because it serves some business purpose.
Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by therealdrag0 on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @02:52PM (#20813198)
Why is it excessive if it's done efficiently? Especially more efficiently than local!

http://freakonomics.com/2011/11/14/the-inefficiency-of-local...

Re:No More Cheap Shipping for Chinese Sellers by DocTomoe on Tuesday August 27, 2019 @11:47AM (#20810892)
Money.