News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by aphextron on Saturday July 27, 2019 @02:40PM (#20543428)
I think you're placing far too much faith in genetic determinism. Intelligence is a highly fluid concept with no widely accepted defining characteristics. To think that geneticists can just "pick and choose" genes to add to an embryo that will reliably result in genius level intellects is absurd. The human mind is not a tomato plant or a wheat kernel. It's a highly complex system that requires a multitude of biological and environmental factors to flourish into an above average intelligence.
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by faitswulff on Saturday July 27, 2019 @02:41PM (#20543438)
Reminds me of this quote:

"I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops."

- Jay Gould

Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by lanstin on Saturday July 27, 2019 @03:10PM (#20543573)
That is Stephen Jay Gould and I just reread the Mismeasure of Man, an excellent inoculation against essentialist beliefs about the incarnation of intelligence.
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by ZhuanXia on Saturday July 27, 2019 @03:20PM (#20543629)
I am afraid Paul Krugman's take on Gould is pretty accurate:

"Now it is not very hard to find out, if you spend a little while reading in evolution, that Gould is the John Kenneth Galbraith of his subject. That is, he is a wonderful writer who is bevolved by literary intellectuals and lionized by the media because he does not use algebra or difficult jargon. Unfortunately, it appears that he avoids these sins not because he has transcended his colleagues but because he does does not seem to understand what they have to say; and his own descriptions of what the field is about - not just the answers, but even the questions - are consistently misleading."

He certainly misrepresented data in Mismeasure of Man:https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/jou...

I do find it amusing how people who claim intelligence is 100% environment are also terrified of letting others select for intelligence. It is almost like they know, deep down, that it will work. That intelligence, like almost every other trait we have measured, has a very large heritable component: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ

Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by aphextron on Saturday July 27, 2019 @09:54PM (#20545414)
I'm not sure I would put much stock in an economist's assessment of a geneticist. Brilliant people have a terrible habit of assuming that their brilliance in one area implies an elevated ability in other disparate fields as well. Criticism of Gould among biologists is rare and far between from what I've seen.

>"That intelligence, like almost every other trait we have measured, has a very large heritable component"

The problem is what do you mean when you say "intelligence". We can easily measure physical traits like height, weight, strength, etc. But intelligence is practically impossible to measure and define in any meaningful way. IQ tests have been thoroughly debunked as highly dependent on cultural biases and assumptions of learned knowledge. There is no one single measure you can look at and determine the intelligence of an individual which could possibly be predicted by genetics alone.

Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by ZhuanXia on Saturday July 27, 2019 @10:15PM (#20545495)
Gould was a paleontologist, not a geneticist. Gould's reputation is zero in evolutionary biology, an industrious fool.

See this letter to the editor if you want to see what the giants of evolutionary biology thought of Gould:

John Maynard Smith, one of the world's leading evolutionary biologists, recently summarized in the NYRB the sharply conflicting assessments of Stephen Jay Gould: "Because of the excellence of his essays, he has come to be seen by non-biologists as the preeminent evolutionary theorist. In contrast, the evolutionary biologists with whom I have discussed his work tend to see him as a man whose ideas are so confused as to be hardly worth bothering with, but as one who should not be publicly criticized because he is at least on our side against the creationists." (NYRB, Nov. 30th 1995, p. 46). No one can take any pleasure in the evident pain Gould is experiencing now that his actual standing within the community of professional evolutionary biologists is finally becoming more widely known. If what was a stake was solely one man's self-regard, common decency would preclude comment.

But as Maynard Smith points out, more is at stake. Gould "is giving non-biologists a largely false picture of the state of evolutionary theory" -- or as Ernst Mayr says of Gould and his small group of allies -- they "quite conspicuously misrepresent the views of [biology's] leading spokesmen."[1] Indeed, although Gould characterizes his critics as "anonymous" and "a tiny coterie," nearly every major evolutionary biologist of our era has weighed in in a vain attempt to correct the tangle of confusions that the higher profile Gould has inundated the intellectual world with.[2] The point is not that Gould is the object of some criticism -- so properly are we all -- it is that his reputation as a credible and balanced authority about evolutionary biology is non-existent among those who are in a professional position to know: http://cogweb.ucla.edu/Debate/CEP_Gould.html

>IQ tests have been thoroughly debunked as highly dependent on cultural biases and assumptions of learned knowledge.predicted by genetics alone.

They really, truly have not been debunked. If you are willing to read a short book on the topic, I would recommend this one which has an epub version here: https://archive.org/details/IntelligenceAllThatMatters/page/...

If you are interested in the truth, I ask you to approach this subject bloodlessly, as you would a programming problem. Read the book I linked to. Then re-read Measure of Man, if you must.

But before you do, allow yourself to consider that bio-determinism is allowed to be true. There is no god or law of physics that prevents this from being the case. Imagine that these were just brute facts. If they were, your actions may change but your normative commitments do not have to.

I think if you read the literature neutrally, you will find g-factor is basically coherent and well-motivated, and intelligence is heritable. But when reading on matters touched by ideology, I think it is important to allow yourself to believe you can be persuaded.

Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by doctorpangloss on Sunday July 28, 2019 @02:42AM (#20546177)
Let's say we lived in the centuries old, long debunked eugenicist's fantasy you think is reality.

We'd sooner use gene editing to make people more empathetic, briefer in their words, less absolutist, less looking at things as "programmer problems," less engineery. Higher "EQ."

Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by gwern on Sunday July 28, 2019 @10:25AM (#20547695)
Empathy measures correlate with IQ: https://www.gwern.net/docs/iq/2019-schlegel.pdf#page=4
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by lanstin on Saturday July 27, 2019 @03:48PM (#20543760)
Goulds argument is that different cases have different causes. The difference between my brain and a chimp is mostly genetic. The difference between brains in the neighborhood I grew up in and the brwins in a more wretched to2n are mostly environmental. The act of measuring heriditability without the context for what effect you are analysing is as meaningless as reporting means without variances. Have youbactually read this work? It is primarily a guide to avoiding conceptual phallacies that preceed the experiments/numerical analysis.
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by maxander on Saturday July 27, 2019 @04:18PM (#20543920)
I haven’t read Gould, but from what you describe- the people running the studies aren’t dumb, they’re aware of these difficulties! That’s why they use all sorts of means (statistical control, twin studies, etc etc) to get around them, in addition to using compilations of studies from different populations and methods to drive conclusions.
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by lanstin on Saturday July 27, 2019 @04:46PM (#20544087)
That would be an experimental error. Conceptual error means they take experiments that show that within a homogeneous population, the variances in intelligence (begging the question of "are there multiple types of mind skills which are heriditable?") are 50% or whatever explained by genetics. Then they apply these to explain variances between groups, e.g. US African-Americans compared to US European-Americans.

The fallacy is made clear if you look at something less charged like hight. Clearly, in your town, height variance is mostly due to genetics. However, in genetically similar groups over time, heights have been gradually increasing over the generations. This increase is not because heights are being genetically selected for but because the genome codes for an organism that can grow taller or shorter in different conditions, and these places (e.g. Europe) are providing the "grow tall" conditions. Places that aren't providing these conditions are not seeing their children grow them taller.

Now, height is a lot easier to measure than intelligence, and a lot less politically weighted by the various movements to promote racial inequality. But the conceptual fallacy is the same.

Note that Gould is explicitly attacking a "races are genetically different in some substantive intelligence fashion" movement of his time, using the oddly similar movements from prior times. This eugenics thru biotech argument is not currently racially motivated, but western cultures have suffered thru a number of "eugenics by positive means -> eugenics by racism" shifts in the near past, so we are a bit twichty about it.

tldr: No studies about individual variation will tell you about between non-random subgroup variation.

Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by alasdair_ on Saturday July 27, 2019 @05:47PM (#20544400)
>This increase is not because heights are being genetically selected for

Can you explain how you know this? Taller people, in general, are often considered more desirable mates. Wouldn't this lead to such people having more children which would lead to, well, average increases in height?

Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by danmaz74 on Saturday July 27, 2019 @09:28PM (#20545335)
Not OP, but the reference was clearly to increases in height during very short time frames from a natural selection point of view, eg in post WWII Europe.
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by lallysingh on Saturday July 27, 2019 @06:19PM (#20544612)
Until they have a bunch of bruises on their foreheads from low door frames! Cancels the effect.
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by Ygg2 on Saturday July 27, 2019 @08:34PM (#20545175)
Or cancer. The heavier you are, the more cells you have. More cells you have, well more potential for cancer.
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by jacobolus on Sunday July 28, 2019 @03:07AM (#20546228)
Krugman’s own thinking about economics (and the role of public intellectuals) has changed a lot since 1996. I am curious if he still feels that way about Galbraith.
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by BubRoss on Monday July 29, 2019 @08:27AM (#20553807)
You are quoting an economist that publicly said that the internet and crypto currency were worthless.
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by jayd16 on Saturday July 27, 2019 @04:22PM (#20543955)
You'll select for something, sure. The fear is it will lead to a monoculture that ultimately leaves us worse off
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by pixelbash on Saturday July 27, 2019 @05:51PM (#20544429)
That would happen if you cloned one person a million times, but with all the tradeoffs of genetics I doubt there even is a single conclusion to be reached
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by 8note on Saturday July 27, 2019 @11:58PM (#20545773)
how does a lack of algebra infer the no smart people are stuck in dead end jobs?
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by Iv on Saturday July 27, 2019 @10:15PM (#20545493)
And yet IQ (which is a pretty good proxy for intelligence) is a highly inheritable trait, as shown by several twin studies.

It is a fact that I had a hard time accepting, considering that it flies in the face of my beliefs about merit, hard work and the importance of education. These things are important, but genes play a huge role too.

Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by justforyou on Sunday July 28, 2019 @10:44AM (#20547800)
>> And yet IQ (which is a pretty good proxy for intelligence) is a highly inheritable trait, as shown by several twin studies.

Given the tight coupling between culture and IQ tests, it's not necessarily proof of inheritability.

Twins raised in the same household have nearly identical cultural exposure.

(Unless the control is an adopted child of the same age, raised in the same household...)

Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by ZhuanXia on Sunday July 28, 2019 @11:01AM (#20547885)
The twins were separated at birth.
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by justforyou on Sunday July 28, 2019 @12:01PM (#20548181)
I stand corrected.
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by stanfordkid on Saturday July 27, 2019 @06:33PM (#20544671)
The complex system argument is a strawman.

It’s well understood that complex traits are polygenic (no single gene or sets of causal variants) but quite easy to predict such traits when looking at the full genome (I agree the resolution of prediction is still not there — but we are in the infancy of this field).

I recommend learning more about some of the polygenic risk scoring methodologies that are popping up in research: https://www.broadinstitute.org/news/giant-study-finds-rare-i...

Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by stanfordkid on Sunday July 28, 2019 @12:28PM (#20548336)
EDIT: Why height is relevant : "Why study height? Height is the “poster child” of complex genetic traits, meaning it is influenced by multiple genetic variants working together. It’s easy to measure, so makes a relatively simple model for understanding traits produced by not one gene, but many."
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by haihaibye on Saturday July 27, 2019 @09:14PM (#20545301)
This is a belief just like God making man and animals on separate days.

We have DNA and (partly) heritable traits just like tomatos and wheat. The only reason modification (eg CRISPR) was done later in humans vs other organisms was due to ethical not technical reasons.

We have easily obtained metrics that work as a proxy for intelligence like IQ, educational attainment, elite professional success, number of patents, publications etc.

As for having many genes being responsible for a trait, Fisher showed in 1918 you can perform selection even if there were an infinite number of loci involved, see https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infinitesimal_model

Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by justforyou on Sunday July 28, 2019 @10:46AM (#20547817)
>> educational attainment, elite professional success, number of patents, publications etc.

None of these are meaningful measures of intelligence.

Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by haihaibye on Tuesday July 30, 2019 @09:19AM (#20564530)
They correlate and as I said are 'easily measured.. proxies for intelligence'

You can't just sequence people who have accomplished great things and are widely recognised as geniuses as there aren't enough of then and they're busy.

We need huge sample sizes. Ideally, you'd sequence a million people and have them sit rigorous tests, interviews etc. But it's way cheaper and faster to have them tick boxes on forms.

Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by justforyou on Thursday August 01, 2019 @10:48AM (#20584163)
>> They correlate and as I said are 'easily measured.. proxies for intelligence'

You're going to have to provide meaningful evidence to back up the assertion that numbers of patents (as well as the other criteria listed) actually correlate to higher intelligence.

Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by sgt101 on Sunday July 28, 2019 @03:11PM (#20549293)
As anyone who has worked at a university or a research lab has said always!
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by sgt101 on Sunday July 28, 2019 @03:10PM (#20549287)
There are ethical reasons - of course, but we should also consider safety; which will be a tough one for CRISPR for heritable conditions. What if a modification goes sour in the second generation? What if it leads to mid life cancer? It might be a long time before we know if this is genuinely safe.
Re:Biology is the New Tech: Letter from a conference on CRISPR by AlexanderNull on Sunday July 28, 2019 @01:06PM (#20548572)
You're only mentioning our CURRENT adolescence in this field. Dozens of genes associated with intelligence have already been identified and hereditary studies have already shown intelligence's genetic roots. A geneticist today can no more just "pick and choose" to enhance the intellect of an embryo anymore than Isaac Newton could have just manually entangled two photons, or Alan Turing could have fit something over a billion times more powerful than one of his Bombe machines into a sleek gadget the size of a wallet (with also remote telephony and photographic capabilities!).

This is how science works, humanity learns more and progresses. Just because something is complex to you today doesn't mean it will still be complex to you 50 years from now.