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Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by masklinn on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @02:19AM (#20504824)
> Or rather, they're expensive upfront but often turn out to be more economical over the life of the garment. In either case, they will be more pleasant to wear than a lower quality alternative.

Good ol' Vimes "Boots" Theory of Economic Injustice strikes again:

> At the time of Men at Arms, Samuel Vimes earned thirty-eight dollars a month as a Captain of the Watch, plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots, the sort that would last years and years, cost fifty dollars. This was beyond his pocket and the most he could hope for was an affordable pair of boots costing ten dollars, which might with luck last a year or so before he would need to resort to makeshift cardboard insoles so as to prolong the moment of shelling out another ten dollars.

> Therefore over a period of ten years, he might have paid out a hundred dollars on boots, twice as much as the man who could afford fifty dollars up front ten years before. And he would still have wet feet.

> Without any special rancour, Vimes stretched this theory to explain why Sybil Ramkin lived twice as comfortably as he did by spending about half as much every month.

(though in a way modern society have made things worse as, as you note, "better" is usually more expensive but more expensive doesn't necessarily mean better, and it's often hard for the uninitiated to know if they're paying for quality, for brand, or for getting fleeced).

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by losvedir on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @06:58AM (#20505784)
I don't really believe this anymore. Basically because of this theory my last pair of boots want the nicest I could find, high quality materials, hand made construction, almost $500, thinking it was an investment and I'd never have to go shoe shopping again. Well, I've had to repair them once already, and frankly with how cheap boots are at Walmart I don't think anymore I'll ever break even. Nice boots, though, and a pleasure to wear.
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by derefr on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @03:16PM (#20509372)
I believe the common wisdom isn't that high-quality things necessarily are any slower to wear out; but rather that when they do wear out, they do so in non-critical ways, with specially-designated easily-replaceable sacrificial parts wearing out to protect the whole.

E.g. with shoes with leather soles, you can just pry them off and tack on a new sole; with an expensive couch with good framing, you can just reupholster the thing; etc.

Likewise, clothes considered higher-quality are usually made of materials that can "absorb" re-stitching; while clothes made of "expensive" but not "high-quality" materials (e.g. modern sports fabrics) will tear and then there's nothing you can really do; any patch sewn onto them would fall back off the first time they're put through the wash.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by Retric on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @09:30AM (#20506552)
Extremes are bad at both ends. Really cheap shoes don’t last 2 months. Some cheap clothes don’t last the first wash.

However, finding the sweet spot is rarely 100x the cheap version it’s more like 2-10x. The risk is not just normal use some times things get lost etc.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by distances on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @07:06AM (#20505810)
I think there's a middle ground. I bought 110€ winter shoes 11-12 years ago and they've worked fine (with one resoling) this far -- now I've worn through the inner material and will probably have to find a new pair.

Same for my 100€ winter jacket, sits and looks great still after 10 years. It's def not lovingly handcrafted but a level up from fast fashion anyway.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by vanderZwan on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @08:07AM (#20506057)
So in short: Vimes' "Boots" Theory of Economic Injustice is incomplete without taking the Pareto Principle into consideration as well
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by natmaka on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @08:42AM (#20506240)
Many (most?) types of expensive things are thought to be "more durable" because their users take much more care of them (because they are expensive!) than of their cheap equivalent.
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by H1Supreme on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @08:16AM (#20506102)
Do you wear them daily? Even boots from Alden or Viberg should be rotated with at least one other pair.
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by ryanlol on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @09:43AM (#20506643)
Yeah, any leather shoes will wear out much faster if you don't let them sit and dry out after wearing.

Shoe trees can vastly prolong the lifespan of a pair of shoes.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by jandrese on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @01:36PM (#20508567)
Are you stomping through mud puddles daily with your shoes?

Regular foot sweat should be long since evaporated away with just an overnight stay in the shoe closet unless perhaps you live in an un-airconditioned house in a swamp.

I wear the same pair of leather shoes every day and in the end it's the soles that wear out, not the leather. They aren't even fancy shoes, just run of the mill Dockers.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by Domenic_S on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @02:03PM (#20508792)
That's a great failure mode as you can simply get them re-soled.
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by jandrese on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @02:09PM (#20508845)
Theoretically, but the couple of times I've checked it would cost pretty much the same or more to re-sole my shoes as it would be to buy a brand new pair. It's pretty hard to find anybody who even does that anymore, and their clients are people with extremely expensive imported dress shoes.
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by cbzoiav on Monday July 29, 2019 @02:36AM (#20551993)
Not sure where you are but in the UK Timpsons are absolutely everywhere (although the quality and pricing of repairs seems pretty hit and miss - some stores are excellent, others less so).

And there are still plenty of independent shops kicking about. Most places offering lock smith services also offer shoe repair.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by kortex on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @09:50AM (#20506695)
Huh. So you are saying if I have 2 pairs of identical shoes, A and B, if I wear A for T months, then B for T months, by alternating every day I should get >2T months out?
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by ghostbrainalpha on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @01:56PM (#20508737)
You absolutely get > 2T out. Potentially up to 4T.

This is because much of the wear on your shoes does not come from steps and hitting the ground. It comes from sweat and moisture inside the shoe, and the inside of your shoe takes a REALLY long time to dry out fully.

If you wanted to extend of life of a shoe without rotating pairs you can also buy a shoe drying rack. This is what a lot of people in construction do with extensive work boots.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by thrav on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @10:47AM (#20507122)
I have so many pairs of shoes now that I only wear some of them a few times a year. I only ever buy ones that I’ll have forever on deep discount (picked up a couple pair of Allen Edmonds for $100 each recently).

For the price of 2 Allen Edmonds bought retail, I could have 7 pairs of their timeless shoes, rotate them regularly, and never buy shoes again.

In reality, I have 4. 2 brown and 2 black, and that’s more than enough. My Dad has the same, and is still wearing his from the 80s on a daily basis.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by wyclif on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @05:14AM (#20513451)
The top of the line Allen Edmonds dress shoes (forget the model right now) are really high quality uppers. You can re-sole them many times.
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by the_seraphim on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @12:26PM (#20507959)
Yes, it allows the materials to dry out and prevents microscopic damage from hydrolysis or mould et al.
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by CydeWeys on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @10:44AM (#20507101)
This is an old wive's tale.
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by parliament32 on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @04:22PM (#20519255)
Why not find a company with a lifetime warranty? My dailies are https://www.goruck.com/macv-1/ and they offer to lifetime-fix-or-replace anything you manage to break or wear out. This brand may be a bit too "military" for you but I'm sure there are other manufacturers out there that actually stand behind their products, no?
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by taneq on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @03:51AM (#20505158)
I think about this a lot when shopping. If I see non-perishables on sale for 20-30% off, I'll stock up on 6 months' worth and almost be able to guarantee I'll see them on sale again before I run out. Someone who doesn't have that much float wouldn't be able to do so, and so would be stuck paying 20% more than me for everything forever. So much of economics is chicken-and-egg.
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by parliament32 on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @04:24PM (#20519269)
If you have the storage space this is definitely the way to go. I have a good habit of stocking up on whatever Costco has on sale this week that I'll actually use and the savings definitely add up.
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by Steve44 on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @04:39AM (#20505305)
I think there is a flaw in that story. I’ve a few pairs of high quality shoes and yes they do last well and look good but they still need maintenance. I send them back to the manufacturer for a resole when needed, they come back refurbished but it’s cost about 1/3 the price of buying a new pair.

I also have a 30 year old Omega watch. Every five years that goes back to Omega, it’s away for about a month and costs £2-300 each time.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by iamdead on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @05:51AM (#20505547)
The story is a simplification, and that's its flaw, like most stories.

My experience is that while lifetime and cost are often correlated, they aren't always, the ratio is often a curve, and the curve is different for every product. My $10 Casio watch has outlasted some nicer watches costing more than $100. But I once made the mistake of buying a $40 pair of shoes, and they were unwearable within a few months.

Another example is that high-end suits with high thread count are supposedly less durable than less expensive suits, because the finer, more comfortable fabric is also thinner and wears more quickly.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @08:39AM (#20506229)
Then on top of that there's market inefficacy. You can readily buy high quality shoes that are normally $200+ for under $100 if you don't mind them being boots and only available in black, coyote tan and sage green.
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by rdtwo on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @09:27AM (#20506531)
You can get iron rangers for around 180 every couple months. That’s probably the best deal around
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by thrav on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @10:56AM (#20507220)
My closet is filled with Iron Rangers, 1000 miles, AEs, and handmade Mocs. All purchased at steep discounts or second hand stores. All look better than the day I bought them years later.

My oldest pair of shoes are going on 11 years, and look even better than the rest after one re-sole.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by thrav on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @10:53AM (#20507191)
You shouldn’t send the watch back for refinishing. Worn ones are more valuable.
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by lb1lf on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @12:44PM (#20508111)
-It’s not just refinishing of the case, but rather cleaning and lubing the movement; you don’t want the innards to grind themselves to pieces.

That being said, my everyday Omega (a PlanetOcean diver) has gone for 11 years without a service and still keeps excellent time; once timekeeping deteriorates, I’ll have it cleaned, lubed and adjusted at my local watchmaker’s.

Oh, and the case will be refinished over my dead body; it has more or less literally gone to war with me, got banged up a bit, lived to tell the tale and is still ticking.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by RomanBob on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @03:57AM (#20505174)
What is the injustice here?
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by swish_bob on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @04:16AM (#20505231)
The fact that poor people spend more money on things than rich people, once you include replacing them when they wear out.

Or do you think that it's just that the poor people are held down?

(Cue stories about people working their way out of poverty and thus proving the poverty trap isn't a real thing)

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by Waterluvian on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @05:37AM (#20505499)
I see an interesting form of this that isn't exclusive to the poor: daycare.

My wife has the luxury of not having to work so we have never used daycare. That's tens of thousands of dollars, hundreds of hours driving, not getting sick all the time, not needing a second car, the list goes on not to mention the immeasurable cost of missing out on the absolute best hours of your child's life.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by distances on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @07:19AM (#20505856)
In the US. Over here daycare is paid by taxes, free for everyone regardless of income or employment status, and in the city you'll likely have the daycare within a couple of blocks so no extra car needed either. Yes you'll get a cold more often thanks to all the germs, but sick days don't eat to your salary or holidays (also sick time on holidays gets reimbursed!) so no monetary loss.

You'll miss out on a lot of the time with your kid, but on the other hand they get to socialize a lot more from a very young age already. Some parents also burn out at home after a while, but that of course depends on the person.

I realize this went quite offtopic, sorry about that.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by Waterluvian on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @07:32AM (#20505906)
Thanks for sharing and helping reduce my ignorance on the subject. I'll be honest, any social service we have in Canada, I just assume the US has it worse.

I believe we have cheap or free subsidized daycare too but it's generally terrible. There's also 12 month waiting lists where I live. My colleagues all pay tens of thousands.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by distances on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @08:19AM (#20506112)
Sorry if I was unclear, my report was from an European standpoint. I just assumed you're from the US, probably based on the yearly cost you mentioned.
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by Waterluvian on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @09:25AM (#20506522)
Ohh okay. From Canada. Free if you don't make much money. I thought you were initializing with "I'm in the US".
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by dsfyu404ed on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @08:44AM (#20506259)
Poor people don't pay what rich people pay for daycare because they daisy chain together some combination of under the table daycare and relatives.

There's obviously trade-offs to that approach but my point is that upper middle class patterns of behavior shouldn't be projected up and down the economic ladder.

Upper middle class people call a plumber. Poor people call a plumber that owes them a favor.. Etc, etc. and so on and so fourth. It's a whole different economy and a lot of the patterns surrounding the crap in life that saps your money are totally different.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by VLM on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @10:06AM (#20506803)
Some basic philosophical disagreements revolve around this. One mans injustice is another's evolutionary survival of the fittest where patience, planning, and low time preference are strongly rewarded by the system. One mans injustice is lack of equality of opportunity, another's is lack of equality of outcome.

There's a quote often falsely attributed to John Wayne "Life is hard; it’s harder when you’re stupid". Some folks see that as good, some as bad. A classic argument of individualism vs collectivism. Obviously the individual is better off if individual stupidity is not punished and obviously the civilization is better off, especially in the long run, if stupidity is punished, so opinions on punishment usually simplify down to an argument about individualism vs collectivism.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by frobozz on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @11:00AM (#20507249)
The John Wayne quote is a slightly different thing. I don't think its particularly controversial to suggest that stupidity should not be rewarded as well as the absence of that stupidity (calling it punishment may turn some people off, even if it means the same thing).

The Vimes example is about the fact that being poor to start with is more expensive in its own right.

Vimes does not make a stupid decision not to buy the expensive boots, they are simply more than he can afford in any reasonable period.

There is another saying "making your first million is hard, making your second million is inevitable"

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by icebraining on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @04:50AM (#20505338)
It should be noted the book called it the "theory of socioeconomic unfairness", not "injustice".
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by watt on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @04:11AM (#20505219)
The rich get richer and the poor only get poorer. It's the principle as old as the bible, and the Vimes part simply puts it into very accessible terms that everyone can identify with.
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by kbutler on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @11:19AM (#20507395)
> the poor only get poorer

This is demonstrably, dramatically false.

"The headline could be "The number of people in extreme poverty fell by 130,000 since yesterday” and they wouldn’t have this headline once, but every single day since 1990, since, on average, there were 130,000 people fewer in extreme poverty every day." https://ourworldindata.org/a-history-of-global-living-condit...

Both the quality and duration of life for "the poor" have increased dramatically over the last decades and centuries. https://ourworldindata.org/life-expectancy-globally

For a "real-time" visualization, see https://worldpoverty.io/index.html

We aren't doing as well as we'd like to be, but the world is making dramatic progress.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by vvpan on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @04:07AM (#20505208)
Perhaps that in theory it's more expensive to be poor?
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by masklinn on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @07:32AM (#20505902)
> Therefore over a period of ten years, he might have paid out a hundred dollars on boots, twice as much as the man who could afford fifty dollars up front ten years before. And he would still have wet feet.
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by peanutgal2600 on Wednesday July 24, 2019 @06:20AM (#20513740)
Poor people are forced to spend more on everything. Finance is a great example. In the USA, banks find poor people unprofitable. To remedy this, they created two institutions:

* ChexSystems, a credit reporting service for bank accounts

* Payday loans, a predatory lending system which takes 4-8% of a person's paycheck to cash it instantly instead of waiting a couple of days.

ChexSystems is designed to identify poor people and ban them from the banking system so that they have to give their round of flesh to shylocks in order to buy food and pay rent. This is one of the more egregious attacks on the poor in the USA, but there are tens of thousands of them to be honest.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by artsyca on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @02:46AM (#20504916)
Ever wonder if cheap commodity exporting countries might play this as a form of covert economic aggression?
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by ptmvp on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @03:40AM (#20505115)
It's an interesting thought but I think there's little basis to believe there is a concerted effort here, as the average consumer is very aware that the quality of, say, a screwdriver from China, is very different from that of a German made one.

I think it's just an unintended consequence of a race to the bottom in cheap, disposable manufacturing. Even then, I'm unsure if on an aggregate level the progress in materials engineering and overall manufacturing processes does not eventually offset this focus on cheapness, resulting on better value than the more expensive alternative.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by artsyca on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @03:47AM (#20505139)
It's not a concerted effort, but over the course of forty or more years it may seem like a trade surplus built on disposable goods is somehow a strategic move?
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by vl on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @02:01PM (#20508778)
But times are changing, now it’s also possible to buy great screwdriver from China and inferior from Germany.
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by JetSpiegel on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @07:31PM (#20511137)
Sure, but buying a random German screwdriver gets you a better one, comparing to a random Chinese one.

Even if China produces an absolute number of good screwdrivers, tge deluge of crap ones dwarfs it.

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by Lewton on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @04:48AM (#20505333)
It's possible, but the "natural" explanation (capitalism driving costs down/race to the bottom) is just as plausible and much simpler
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by RomanBob on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @04:06AM (#20505204)
So selling things people want = aggression now?

Why is everything viewed in term of us vs them?

Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by swish_bob on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @04:18AM (#20505240)
Everything isn't us and them, but bear in mind we're not talking about things people want here, we're talking about things people need.
Re:How to assess the quality of garments (2014) by artsyca on Tuesday July 23, 2019 @04:13AM (#20505226)
oh! man! I'm loving this thread -- there's no question that economic policy is designed as an adversarial game for leverage, especially on the world stage. Taking a step back and seeing how the world has (de)evolved in the past 30 years I'm wondering if selling people what they think they want isn't the best way to bring a society to its knees? edit: and making it just ever so much more breakable to where it's usable but definitely won't last forever..