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Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by Kaiyou on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @07:09AM (#20400829)
There's two sides to everything. Have you looked at the downside of not eating meat?
Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by Deestan on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @07:16AM (#20400866)
Assuming you adjust your diet instead of just subtracting meat (increase broccoli/beans/lentils/spinach for iron, etc), are there really any downsides? We've had vegetarians for a thousands of years, and I am not aware of have any health problems that are most efficiently solved by adding meat.
Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by kabouseng on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @07:37AM (#20400962)
Don't eat spinach for iron, spinach is a very poor source of iron...[1] [multiple other sources you can google as well]

And vegetarians struggle quite a bit with getting proper dietary nutrition, not just with iron, but also Vitamin B12, Zinc, Omega-3 fatty acids, Vitamin D, Calcium, Protein and Riboflavin. So it is not quite just "simply" adjust your diet you lazy meat eater.

[1] https://www.compoundchem.com/2018/07/17/spinach/

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by dashundchen on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @08:35AM (#20401338)
> And vegetarians struggle quite a bit with getting proper dietary nutrition, not just with iron, but also Vitamin B12, Zinc, Omega-3 fatty acids, Vitamin D, Calcium, Protein and Riboflavin. So it is not quite just "simply" adjust your diet you lazy meat eater.

All of those listed able to be met easily by plant based sources with a well balanced diet.

And it's not like the average meat American is eating a healthy diet. I would be shocked if the standard American diet actually met all recommended nutritional intakes.

B12 is only in significant amounts of meat because it is heavily supplemented and present in the soil, today's clean produce strips most of those bacteria from the food supply.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by mcv on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @09:31AM (#20401749)
B12 is the one I know a number of vegetarians have trouble getting from plant based sources. I've had trouble with it ages ago, and a friend of mine has been told by his doctor that he has to eat meat because of this.

The solution is really simple, though: eat less meat. We don't need meat every day. Once or twice a week is more than enough, and if everybody did that, it would greatly reduce this problem.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by the_gastropod on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @10:20AM (#20402173)
A doctor suggested eating meat to resolve a B12 deficiency? I find that strange. Low B12 is common among meat-eaters and vegetarians alike. It's a bacteria-byproduct and easily supplementable.
Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by mcv on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @11:00AM (#20402569)
This is the first time I've heard that. I know a number of vegetarians who specifically had b12 deficiency, and every single time, the answer was that we could only get b12 from animal products. One of them gets b12 supplements aware that it's the only animal product she consumes.

I checked Wikipedia though, and it agrees with you, which makes me wonder even more why I've heard this exact same experience from several unconnected vegetarians.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by mkbkn on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @11:05AM (#20402630)
Fermented foods like Idli can get you enough Vit B12. No need to eat meat.
Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by jogjayr on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @12:11PM (#20403342)
Your friend couldn't take a B12 supplement?
Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by mcv on Thursday July 11, 2019 @07:03AM (#20410623)
Apparently not. I don't know his medical details, though.

Although I do wonder, if we're wrong about B12 only coming from animals, is it possible that we, or possible even Dutch physicians, are under-informed about our options?

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by mkbkn on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @11:03AM (#20402608)
> And vegetarians struggle quite a bit with getting proper dietary nutrition, not just with iron, but also Vitamin B12, Zinc, Omega-3 fatty acids, Vitamin D, Calcium, Protein and Riboflavin. So it is not quite just "simply" adjust your diet you lazy meat eater.

I'm a vegetarian (yes, not a vegan yet) living in India and I'm not deficient in any of these. Also, never have been.

e.g. take the case of protein, I eat pulses almost daily (and a variety of) with rice, never felt I have less protein than required.

Vit B12 - you can get from fermented foods like Idli etc. Also, from the water soaked overnight in rice (actually rice is soaked in water).

Vegetarianism had been practised in India since time immemorial. One can say the food has been perfected here to stay healthy.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by asdff on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @12:42PM (#20403687)
Time for a multivitamin?
Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by naasking on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @09:48AM (#20401889)
> are there really any downsides? We've had vegetarians for a thousands of years

Vegetarians are self-selected. We can have reasonably high confidence it would be fine, but we can't be sure, and some people literally will not be able to tolerate it.

> I am not aware of have any health problems that are most efficiently solved by adding meat.

Depends how you define "efficient". There are plenty of nutrients that are most concentrated in meat, such that small portions of meat can replace the need to consume large portions of plant matter.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by 52-6F-62 on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @08:21AM (#20401235)
I always have to pipe in here. I’m probably in a smaller contingent but I’m a male with a B12 and Iron deficiency and the most effective solution has been to eat more red meat (according to my doctor) while taking a daily sublingual methylcobalamin. Even with the supplement if I go too long without making sure I eat some red meat I start noticing the old side effects return. If I don’t I literally lose red blood cells and they’re not replenished. Not so good.

It runs in my family. My poor mother is so bad that she has had to have a couple of blood transfusions because nothing else would bring her back from a bad state when she got there (the alternative being just lie down and die). Supplementation hasn’t helped her many times†. They also rarely eat red meat.

Here’s hoping I or my sister don’t end up the same way. My sister has already devolved to anemic and has had her own complications with that.

† edit: Rereading this it sounds confusing. I meant that supplementation has not helped her either prevent or recover from those cases until after the transfusion where her doctor stressed diet.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by tuesday20 on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @07:28AM (#20400913)
There are millions of vegetarians around the world who are perfectly healthy, my family included.

Even if meat is super healthy, I sill doubt factory produced meat is good - with all its chemicals.

I’d guess that most people eat meat because of its taste and because they were raised by their parents to eat meat, and not because they truly believe it is superior to vegetarian food

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by snarf21 on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @08:52AM (#20401460)
Not talking about meat vs vegetables being better or not but do you think that vegetables aren't factory produced? Do you think that fruits and vegetables aren't picked before fresh and sprayed with chemicals to make them the 'right' color or slow ripening or keep them from spoiling? There is also the often un-talked about issue of calorie density by weight or volume. All these things need shipped from where they are grown to your store/house. Meat is generally 10 times more calorie dense. So to ship the same calories we would need 10 times the trucks which would have a huge CO2 implication. Fruits and vegetables have tons of fiber and water which are good for us but it costs to ship them. The only way to make fruits and vegetables more weight/volume dense and reduce the fiber would be to blend them up into something akin to a smoothie. But then this will require more chemicals to keep it fresh. Also, I don't want to eat all my vegetables as a liquid so....

In the end, there are hugely interconnected issues and most people take one small facet, extrapolate it to infinity and ignore all the ripple effects and consequences of even the smallest change.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by the_gastropod on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @10:31AM (#20402280)
> Meat is generally 10 times more calorie dense. So to ship the same calories we would need 10 times the trucks which would have a huge CO2 implication

Where do those animals get their calories from? And how efficient are they at converting those calories into consumable flesh?

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by hvidgaard on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @08:05AM (#20401132)
Meat and animal products is a good source for essential nutritional components that you have to make a conscious effort get from a pure plant base diet.

The problem is not eating meat. It's the amount of meat people eat that's unsustainable.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by the_gastropod on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @10:28AM (#20402249)
"I would have to think" isn't a very compelling argument here, imo. People eating the standard American diet don't have to think because:

1. That's the most popular diet, and foods have been fortified to add vitamins and minerals the diet tends to be deficient in.

2. Well, they're not exactly beacons of health, anyway.

There are billions of vegetarians in the world. They tend to live longer and have lower rates of cancer and heart disease than their meat-eating counterparts. "Thinking" seems like worthwhile effort.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by hvidgaard on Thursday July 11, 2019 @04:46AM (#20410069)
Including poor people that cannot afford meat in this statistic make your argument seem like you're not serious.

If we take India, which is the country with more vegetarians than the rest of the world combined. It's estimated that 30-40% are vegetarians. A country with a strong cultural history of vegetarianism, religious beliefs that vegetarianism is "right", have the most developed vegetarian cuisine, and a system that makes it super simple to see if something is vegetarian or not - 60-70% still eat meat. If you move to the coast less than 5% are strictly vegetarians.

The issue is not consumption of meat - it's the amount. If you add nuts, beans, and protein heavy vegetables - a family of 4 can get by with 1-1.5kg of meat weekly and make sure all their micro nutrient needs are met without even trying. 1 day with fish, 1 day with red meat, and 1 day with white meat. It's a significantly more achievable goal than cutting meat all together, and it would probably result in a more healthy population than cutting meat all together because it covers all nutritional needs.

> They tend to live longer and have lower rates of cancer and heart disease than their meat-eating counterparts

As far as I've read it's not the meat that causes this, but the lack of vegetables, browning of meat, and addition of processed meat - so while a vegetarian diet solves the problem, you can retain meat in the diet and get the benefit anyway. If you have some peer reviewed scientific papers that show otherwise, I would like to see them because I have papers showing the opposite in abundance.

Re:Fighting climate change may be cheaper and more beneficia... by rb666 on Wednesday July 10, 2019 @07:51AM (#20401037)
There are plenty good meat replacements. Plus, you can also exchange some meat for fish. From a diet viewpoint, you can easily do with meat just once a week.