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Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by mstade on Friday July 05, 2019 @04:37PM (#20365679)
I think there's a lot of insight in this comment. I also believe a lot of customers (current and potential) would really like to buy an EV from an established car maker rather than a new comer, and I believe they really want it to look and feel just like a 3-series, or 5-series, or whatever they're called – not the abomination that is i3. I believe this is what everyone except Tesla understands, and I really don't know but maybe it's exactly for the reasons you lay out: they don't want to cannibalize on the gas guzzler series. But if they don't eat themselves, someone else sure will!
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by evo_9 on Friday July 05, 2019 @05:54PM (#20366190)
My abomination i3 is the best car I’ve ever owned. To each there own, I personally think it looks like it came out of Blade Runner and the only real complaint I have is I wish it were AWD and had wider, less bicycle-like tires.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by mwfunk on Friday July 05, 2019 @11:13PM (#20367556)
Just to be clear, I do think the i3 and cars like them have a place in the market, and kudos to BMW for getting outside of its comfort zone and shipping something new that has found an audience.

However, if I were running BMW (and it's surely best for everyone that I'm not), I wouldn't want the i3 to be the core of my EV business. The day-to-day bread-and-butter EVs should target the same demographic sweet spots as BMW's gas guzzlers: expensive but not too expensive, comfortable, attractive, high-performance vehicles with (at least perceived) consistently high quality for components, engineering, innovation, and some combination of classy design and sporty sexiness.

People can argue whether or not they've ever consistently nailed all or any of those marks, but at the very least, that is the niche that BMW aspires to be in in the auto industry, and the niche it has had the most success in occupying. BMW has had great success making a certain type of motorcycle and certain types of cars, and I've got to think they'd have great success making a certain type of EV if they fearlessly applied themselves to doing it. Maybe they've realized their mistakes and are doing that now, who knows, but they're years behind where I wish they were. :( I still think they can catch up as long as they've at least gotten their vision together by now.

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by mstade on Friday July 05, 2019 @07:53PM (#20366806)
I’m sure it’s a great car but man it looks terrible, and I’m willing to bet a lot of consumers are just as vain as I am. It is of course just my opinion, and as you say: to each their own. I’m glad you like your car, but if I was to buy an EV I want it to look like a regular car – not like something out of blade runner.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by rhizome on Friday July 05, 2019 @10:22PM (#20367338)
Personally, it looks great if you think man-made stuff should look man-made.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by chronic7382 on Friday July 05, 2019 @11:07PM (#20367529)
Since we're playing this game, the BMW i3 looks bad to me.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by rhizome on Sunday July 07, 2019 @12:40PM (#20375963)
Of course not everything "interesting and/or unusual" is good design, but in this case I think it holds.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by maxsilver on Friday July 05, 2019 @08:54PM (#20367039)
> I wish it (had) less bicycle-like tires.

Agree completely. I absolutely love the i3 (especially the futuristic design, and the rex engineering), and was going to try to get one at some point -- until I discovered the bicycle tires.

I'm not sure it's even safe to drive on US roads with tires like that. Did BMW forget that potholes are a thing?

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by jjtheblunt on Saturday July 06, 2019 @12:51AM (#20367950)
Traded in my AMG-variant Mercedes for an i3 almost five years ago, and, while I miss the Mercedes, which was far more sure footed than any BMW i've known (probably courtesy of AMG), the i3 is a great entirely weird nerdmobile. And its tail end opens like the back of a cargo plane...just weird and useful.

Tires cost a fortune because they're annoyingly thin, so wear down fast, and only are made by Bridgestone, I think. Handling is great: carbon fiber and alumin[i]um.

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by zwily on Friday July 05, 2019 @09:29PM (#20367160)
My bro-in-law had one and liked it, then moved to Nebraska. First snowfall they had to get rid of it - it was terrible on anything slippery.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by injb on Friday July 05, 2019 @09:34PM (#20367184)
Then he had the wrong tires, guaranteed.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by akmarinov on Saturday July 06, 2019 @05:43AM (#20368824)
Exactly - bicycle tires.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by javagram on Saturday July 06, 2019 @07:11AM (#20369073)
Perhaps the parent meant to suggest https://www.bmwblog.com/2015/04/04/bmw-i3-winter-tires-revie... for the winter. At least according to that review, using the winter tires would have been better in the snow.

Of course if you’d rather run all-weather tires without the hassle of changing from summer to winter tires, it seems like the i3 is a bad choice.

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by untangle on Saturday July 06, 2019 @08:52AM (#20369413)
The 19" tire is "All Season" rated. The 20" performance tire is "Summer Only." So if you want an i3 "without the hassle" you simply get one with the more-common 19" wheels.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by javagram on Saturday July 06, 2019 @08:25PM (#20372853)
Yep. I rock all season tires on my (not an i3) car as well. They’ll never be great in the snow, but I live in an area where snow is rare so that’s fine.

I can certainly imagine the “bicycle” tires must not be very good at all in the snow unless they’re the specialized winter version!

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by shostack on Friday July 05, 2019 @11:43PM (#20367660)
My mechanic said the cost of tire replacements is nuts on them.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by schmookeeg on Saturday July 06, 2019 @01:29AM (#20368099)
$180 apiece. (our i3 has the 19" wheels. No idea what the 20" go for) Some Costcos stock them, ours had to order and it arrived next day.

I'd expect this cost is in the ballpark for their other cars.

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by Ocerge on Friday July 05, 2019 @06:23PM (#20366364)
I can't provide a source right now, maybe Matt Farah, but I've always heard i3s are of extremely high quality. Perhaps people like to project their range anxiety onto the rest of the vehicle?
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by nvrspyx on Friday July 05, 2019 @06:37PM (#20366437)
I can’t speak for everyone, but it’s not so much the quality that puts me off, it’s the appearance. I personally think it’s ugly and there’s way too much “noise” in its aesthetics, for lack of a better term. But as the previous commenter said, to each their own. I’m sure it’s a fine car. It’s just not the aesthetic I’d go for, especially as far as BMWs go.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by evo_9 on Friday July 05, 2019 @09:13PM (#20367094)
It really is. The entire body is carbon fiber. We had a major hailstorm about a year back and it trashed everyone's car except mine at my office. No damage. I also had a joker run a light and clip my left-rear quarter panel - moving me about 1.5 feet in the process - also no damage.

I'm actually leasing mine and plan on buying one used. You can find them for sub-25k and quite honestly it's one of the best values EV-wise you can find.

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by sunstone on Saturday July 06, 2019 @03:02PM (#20371230)
Yes that's the problem with electrics, even when they try to make them unappealing people still love them.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by blattimwind on Friday July 05, 2019 @08:34PM (#20366968)
Is electric AWD more like a low-end AWD (like Haldex) or can it actually compete with quattro?
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by kozak on Friday July 12, 2019 @10:00AM (#20420769)
With fully independent powertrains for both alxes (and potentially, for each of four wheels), electric AWD is potentially better that anything that mechanical AWD can offer.

I say "potentially" because one can always screw it up with bad (or poorly tuned) software.

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by CameronNemo on Friday July 05, 2019 @05:04PM (#20365895)
>everyone except Tesla understands

Why do you claim this?

Tesla cannot change the fact that they are a newcomer. They can only stand by their vehicles as best they can (which has been difficult for body work, but most mechanical issues can be handled efficiently).

Furthermore, the look of Tesla vehicles is 100% optimized for drag efficiency. Most electric car purchasers care about range a lot more than look...

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by mstade on Friday July 05, 2019 @05:29PM (#20366035)
> Why do you claim this?

Because they are the only manufacturer of EVs that look and feel mostly like regular cars. It's really that simple. Also, please don't miss the "I believe" part of my statement, I have zero facts to back this up, it's just my opinion.

> Furthermore, the look of Tesla vehicles is 100% optimized for drag efficiency.

Who cares? I want my car to be 100% optimized for not looking like a deranged design experiment. I want it to look like all the other cars. I, just like most other people, aren't special and don't really care to look that way either.

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by austhrow743 on Saturday July 06, 2019 @02:29AM (#20368289)
>Because they are the only manufacturer of EVs that look and feel mostly like regular cars.

Did you mean to write "nobody except Tesla understands" in your previous comment? This reads like you've accidentally trash talked them while trying to praise them, and now you're in a weird disagreement with someone you kind of agree with.

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by mstade on Saturday July 06, 2019 @06:41AM (#20368988)
Yes, of course! I didn't even realize my mistake, and now it's too late to change. Thanks for the correction, and my apologies for the confusion.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by thefounder on Friday July 05, 2019 @06:23PM (#20366361)
Jaguar makes iPace model now that can compete with Tesla on looks and even beat it on UX
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by erikpukinskis on Saturday July 06, 2019 @03:21AM (#20368446)
I don’t think you can actually buy them. Or the wait is over a year.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by thefounder on Saturday July 06, 2019 @06:04AM (#20368871)
In Europe you can buy it straight from the dealership. It's been available for almost a year.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by webaholic on Friday July 05, 2019 @07:30PM (#20366726)
at what price though?
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by apocalyptic0n3 on Friday July 05, 2019 @11:04PM (#20367513)
Starts at $70k apparently, about the same as the Model S starting price (though obviously much higher than the Model 3 or, likely, Model Y)
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by carlmr on Saturday July 06, 2019 @03:20AM (#20368441)
I thought the model 3 was basically 60k if you put in minimal accessories. How do they compare on that?
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by PhaseBlue on Saturday July 06, 2019 @11:59PM (#20373486)
Model 3 now starts at 39500 with Autopilot.

60k will get you the Performance Model with 0-60 in 3.2s and 11.6 1/4 mile

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by maxsilver on Friday July 05, 2019 @09:03PM (#20367067)
> I want it to look like all the other cars.

So buy a LEAF (which looks just like a Prius) or buy a Bolt (which looks just like a Spark) or an Outlander EV (which is almost identical to a regular Outlander) or an Ioniq (which looks like an Elantra) or a Kona EV (which is almost identical to a regular Kona SUV).

There are plenty of electric cars that look like traditional boring cars, if that's really the only thing holding you back.

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by saagarjha on Saturday July 06, 2019 @12:01AM (#20367730)
> So buy a LEAF (which looks just like a Prius)

The new one does. The old one is as different as it can be.

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by basch on Friday July 05, 2019 @05:42PM (#20366110)
isnt Hyundai competitive now, and they look like cars?
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by erikpukinskis on Saturday July 06, 2019 @03:22AM (#20368450)
Yes, but there is no real production so you can’t get one.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by HiroshiSan on Friday July 05, 2019 @04:42PM (#20365718)
Completely agree with you there, both the i8 and the i3 in my opinion look like electric vehicles you'd read about in a sci-fi novel, but neither are cool or sexy.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by ryandrake on Friday July 05, 2019 @06:36PM (#20366429)
Honestly the world needs more unique-looking cars. Every 4-door sedan made after 2000 or so looks like the same boring identical “bar of soap with wheels”. With only a few minor differences (headlight and tail light shape, grill, etc. from a large distance only car experts tell any of the major brands apart visually.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by perl4ever on Friday July 05, 2019 @07:46PM (#20366776)
I'm old enough to remember (although I didn't particularly notice it at the time) when headlights were standardized. In fact, I've got a car from the 80s right now, and the (pop-up) headlights are round and say "Sylvania".

I don't think that the diversity of headlights is an exception to the rule of cars all looking the same, but rather one instance out of many of designers having far more freedom than they did historically, and so there's a lot more variation in what they produce.

Fewer and fewer people are buying sedans, but it's easy to pick a couple to contrast. Take the Ford Fusion and Taurus. The Fusion is all ovals, while the Taurus seems to be made out of chamfered blocks and trapezoids. Or consider the previous generation Hyundai Sonata. The current one is generic looking, I would agree, but the one sold from 2010-2014 looked like no other sedan that I've seen.

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by HiroshiSan on Friday July 05, 2019 @10:35PM (#20367401)
I remember when Kia and Hyundai were known as cheap Korean cars, whoever is in charge of branding has really done a great job turning things around. I especially love the look of the 2019 genesis and the Kia stinger is quite interesting, it feels very American in a way I can't describe when I see one on the road.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by TheSpiceIsLife on Friday July 05, 2019 @11:09PM (#20367537)
Kia Stinger looks American, in my opinion, due to the vents forward and aft of the front wheels; tall blunt nose, high rear with short rear window.

It looks a bit like a Mustang.

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by HiroshiSan on Friday July 05, 2019 @11:47PM (#20367676)
I just read that the designer of the stinger was previously designing for Audi, I can see a pretty similar resemblance to the a7 in the rear.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by taurath on Friday July 05, 2019 @11:34PM (#20367628)
And engineering. I used to think the long warranty was just because it was guaranteed to break, but having gone a decade with friends going through their entire life cycles they’re very sturdy cars. Definitely giving Honda a run for the money.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by braythwayt on Friday July 05, 2019 @08:54PM (#20367041)
Oh come now, the industry gives you both kinds of design: “Two box” and “Three box!”
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by nr152522 on Friday July 05, 2019 @07:48PM (#20366783)
I decided on an i8 over the Tesla model S. The driving experience and the interior quality of the i8 was, IMO, superior. It was a close call mind you. I even put down a 4K deposit on the Tesla.

I felt the i8 was an £80k car with £30k of tech, whereas the Tesla was a £30k car with £80k tech.

As an unexpected bonus, my pregnant wife found it easier to get in and out the i8 compared to standard cars entries :)

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by hn23 on Friday July 05, 2019 @10:29PM (#20367373)
You will be out of seats soon...
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by kerridge0 on Friday July 05, 2019 @06:05PM (#20366261)
It's not an abomination it has some flaws which don't affect me, others that make me compromise a bit (drive more slowly, stop more often), but some reasons I chose it other than it being the only affordable electric car available that met all my requirements, was because of the bmw quality and attention to detail which are also hallmarks of the brand.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by timthorn on Friday July 05, 2019 @05:19PM (#20365964)
The 3-series and 5-series have had electric options (330e & 550e) for some time now.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by dhruvrrp on Friday July 05, 2019 @05:28PM (#20366026)
They both are hybrids so don’t even fall under the same category as electric cars for most people.

The bmw website doesn’t even show options for 330e so that seems to be discontinued and for the 530e the electric range is 16 miles, so basically a luxury Prius.

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by rhizome on Friday July 05, 2019 @10:26PM (#20367359)
Not sure where the 330e went, but there's going to be a 2020 hybrid X1.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by timthorn on Friday July 05, 2019 @05:51PM (#20366172)
I don't know where you're based, but I wonder if that's a US perspective? I've been driving a PHEV in the UK for 5 years, and perhaps 50% of my colleagues with EVs also have hybrids (including a couple with the 330e); I've never known anyone say they're not electric cars before.

The 330e is still available on the BMW UK website.

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by mstade on Friday July 05, 2019 @05:33PM (#20366057)
Yeah I don't really consider hybrids EVs to be honest. I want to get off fossil fuels, not have a token battery that barely gets me out of the driveway.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by perl4ever on Friday July 05, 2019 @07:53PM (#20366807)
If 90 percent of your battery is used to cover the 5% of your travels that a PHEV's battery doesn't cover, it seems like it could potentially be more wasteful to own a BEV.

(I checked and it seems that a Tesla model 3 does indeed have a battery on the order of ten times the capacity of, say, a Prius Prime)

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by timthorn on Friday July 05, 2019 @05:54PM (#20366189)
My token battery gets me to work 20 miles away, and I rarely fire up the ICE, but it means that I can still drive from London to Scotland with only a single stop for petrol.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by vl on Friday July 05, 2019 @11:56PM (#20367707)
How is this an achievement? I drove from London to Edinburgh with no stops for fuel in a diesel car. Hybrid presumably should do better.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by saagarjha on Saturday July 06, 2019 @12:06AM (#20367751)
You left out the part about where they use zero fossil fuels for their daily commute.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by robocat on Friday July 05, 2019 @07:24PM (#20366698)
Unfortunately you can't get off fossil fuels by buying a car - they contain embedded energy of which a large percentage comes from fossil fuels.

If the lifetime of a vehicle is say 400000 kms, I calculate that a new Prius emits less CO2 than a new Model S if manufacturing etc is included.

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by llukas on Friday July 05, 2019 @10:21PM (#20367334)
It highly depends on energy mix that Model S uses (ie. compare Quebec to Ontario): http://www.neb-one.gc.ca/nrg/ntgrtd/mrkt/snpsht/2018/09-01-1...

embedded energy (production) for EV is higher but not that much higher https://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-nealer/gasoline-vs-electric-...

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by robocat on Sunday July 07, 2019 @04:45PM (#20377732)
From that blog: "Driving an average EV results in lower global warming emissions than driving a gasoline car that gets 50 miles per gallon (MPG)".

A Prius gets approx 50 MPG!

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by nr152522 on Friday July 05, 2019 @07:53PM (#20366808)
We’re in a transition phase, so hybrids are a practical solution for a lot of people. A “token” battery is useful to a lot of people. Especially those living in the city. Electric charge points aren’t abundant just yet.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by cynix on Friday July 05, 2019 @08:55PM (#20367044)
> Electric charge points aren’t abundant just yet.

Every wall socket is a charge point, and most people have dozens of those around their house. They're surely more abundant than petrol stations.

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by erik_seaberg on Friday July 05, 2019 @09:31PM (#20367170)
240 V 50 A dryer outlets are said to work pretty well, if you happen to own a house. Normal 15 A appliance outlets barely work (Tesla says one hour per three miles!) and no apartment building has ever offered me a parking space that had one.

I wouldn't buy a pure-electric until nearly all apartments have charging, and that work has barely started.

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by nr152522 on Saturday July 06, 2019 @01:11AM (#20368027)
Just to clarify, I was talking about inner city. Most existing apartment blocks (in London) don’t have charge points available in their car park.

On top of that, I find public charging points to be hit and miss. Quite often you find ICE only cars taking the space or the charging points just out of service/neglected.

I do look forward to the day when electric charging networks are available everywhere with rapid charging.

Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by adrianN on Saturday July 06, 2019 @01:06AM (#20368009)
A lot of people in cities don't have "their house" and don't want to hang a 50m cable out of their window.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by tedmcory77 on Friday July 05, 2019 @09:05PM (#20367071)
“Around their house”- key point when youre not near home.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by mullingitover on Friday July 05, 2019 @05:25PM (#20366007)
Those are plugin hybrids with pretty anemic all-electric range.
Re:BMW CEO to quit after carmaker loses early lead in electrics by thefounder on Friday July 05, 2019 @06:24PM (#20366374)
What electric range do they have? 1 mile? 30?