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Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by toxik on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @07:34AM (#20343337)
Good job, EU! Squelch your citizenry in the interest of the copyright industry. Content filtering is draconian and fundamentally opposed to a free and open society.
Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by criley2 on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @07:44AM (#20343384)
It keeps happening with their draconian regulations. After the privacy/data protection bill, I hear that the european market for online advertising imploded trying to meet regulations and Google Ads gobbled up some 30-40% more market share in Europe. It came down to the fact that Google was able to meet the regulations fastest, and achieve informed user consent across a wide userbase dramatically faster than small local outlets, so ad buyers flocked to the fastest and widest game in town.

One example: https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/image002.p...

Seems more true than ever that big regulations create big business moats that big businesses can easily absorb, but which demolish smaller businesses.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @08:51AM (#20343842)
It might actually turn out for the better. Google is a big target; they can't fly under the radar.

As for demolishing small businesses, small businesses aren't an universal, unquestionable good. In this particular case, we need less adtech business in general. It's like dumping toxic waste into rivers - not only lots of small polluters aren't better than few big ones, the desirable thing is just having less polluters.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by criley2 on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @09:50AM (#20344240)
I literally cannot imagine supporting monopolies/oligopolies over healthy competition.

There really is more than just an ocean between America and Europe, the culture is so dramatically different.

How can one honestly believe that a Google data monopoly is better for privacy and innovation? It seems to fly in the face of every lesson learned by every monopoly in history.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @10:17AM (#20344459)
> I literally cannot imagine supporting monopolies/oligopolies over healthy competition.

Implicit in my post was that I don't want to support healthy competition in adtech, or any competition at all. I want this industry to disappear entirely. I have no tears for the small adtech businesses whose market got scooped up by Google; I only hope that by presenting a bigger target, Google's adtech activities will be easier to regulate.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by xtracerx on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @11:45AM (#20345303)
So if I open a new small business and want to advertise it on AdWords or elsewhere on the internet I have no recourse? Word of mouth is random and unreliable even if you have a good product. Advertising is a healthy and essential signalling mechanism to broadcast the availability of a new service and there is absolutely nothing morally wrong with it in its self. The non-benneficial side-effects like extensive user tracking and practices that drastically harm user experience however are bad and a seperate issue to be dealt with.
Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by dmitriid on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @04:28PM (#20348418)
> So if I open a new small business and want to advertise it on AdWords or elsewhere on the internet I have no recourse

Ad tech was extremely profitable before personalisation and wholesale trading of private data.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by sfifs on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @05:56PM (#20349293)
> Ad tech was extremely profitable

That was the era when marketers were dumb, drank the internet look aid and were taken for a ride by the industry. That's not quite true anymore.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by dmitriid on Thursday July 04, 2019 @02:37PM (#20356789)
They will work just fine today, too
Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by osd on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @10:36AM (#20344628)
The implication wasn't clear because, frankly, it's a silly thought. This post is ripe for that "that's not how any of this works" meme.

I can understand the emotional intent, but it's important to ensure that routes we take actually get us to the outcomes we want.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by jonathanstrange on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @10:03AM (#20344337)
Although I generally agree with your sentiment, please don't forget that, unlike the US, the EU also has antitrust and anticartel laws with teeth and has applied them in the past against large quasi-monopolists like Microsoft and Google.
Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by criley2 on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @10:12AM (#20344414)
With all due respect, America has a long history of busting monopolies, and while we haven't gone on a busting spree this generation, we're awfully close to doing the one thing that Europe would never, ever be able to accomplish: Break up companies like Google and Facebook. (As this thread demonstrates, Europeans would potentially be against us doing so, and would be pro-monopoly?)

I actually think the Google reorganization under Alphabet was done in no small part to prepare for anti-trust activity and the breakup of the Google monster.

Question because I don't know European anti-cartel history, do European regulators have a history of big bust-ups like Ma Bell?

It seems like Europeans just try fining them and letting them be.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by magduf on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @01:20PM (#20346380)
1) There's nothing the EU can do besides fine them. They're foreign companies; they have no power to break them up, only to fine them or prevent them from operating there. They probably decided that getting billions in fines is better than just shutting them out and hoping local companies can somehow come up with similar services.

2) When your country hasn't done something in over a generation, you need to stop touting it as something your country is good at. Just like we don't continue to criticize Germany for some terrible things they did 75 years ago, we need to stop thinking we're so great because we managed to land some people on the moon 50 years ago.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by logifail on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @11:40AM (#20345258)
> we haven't gone on a busting spree this generation, we're awfully close to [..] break[ing] up companies like Google and Facebook

Source?

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by munk-a on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @05:04PM (#20348762)
Don't you recall when we got really close to breaking up microsoft? I mean, in the end we didn't, but we sure did send a lot of _very_ strongly worded letters.

Outside of tech there are a lot of anti-competitive practices that have been left to grow while the cops been off the beat - I'd love to see the Pharma industry shaken up especially with PBM & Manufacturer relationships... additionally, Walmart.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by blfr on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @09:31AM (#20344097)
Yes, monopolies might actually turn out for the better. I can't really think of an example but in principle why not, maybe this time it will be an enlightened monopoly.
Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by TeMPOraL on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @10:13AM (#20344421)
My point was more along the lines: you let Google scoop up all the adtech business and then kill Google. Or at least its adtech activities in Europe. Since the territory is already unsustaining for small adtech businesses, they won't rise back up when Google's monopoly is out of the picture. No more adtech companies in Europe, mission accomplished.
Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by ukoki on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @09:25AM (#20344060)
Totally agree with you. I think also that it's very possible that delivering-adverts-with-minimal-privacy-infringement is a different class of problem to just "delivering-adverts". Maybe it's a type of problem where profit can only be extracted by means of huge economies of scale and well-staffed teams of ML experts? Like deep-sea oil drilling versus drilling in the desert?
Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by raverbashing on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @08:24AM (#20343639)
"Draconian"

Yeah I'm sure not letting companies sell all the data about you to the highest bidder is somehow "draconian". Poor them

You're right about the market capture, though it seems to me the ad market is in a bubble and that massive retargeting and trying to sell people things they already own is going to get old soon.

Good contextualized marketing is less dependant on the profiles and more on what it's being shown right now.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by dmitriid on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @08:09AM (#20343552)
Why do you think that advertising business is good and imploding ad business means privacy regulation is bad for small businesses in general?

Besides, GDPR is an extension of similar laws that have existed for years.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by criley2 on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @09:52AM (#20344248)
* I didnt say ad business was good or bad, but from the perspective of a European I would want European firms competing against American firms and keeping money and talent in my borders to boost my communities.

* I didn't say that imploding ad business means privacy regulation is bad for small business, but I did demonstrate that big regulation chokes out small business and strongly correlates with big business success

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by dmitriid on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @04:27PM (#20348409)
> I didnt say ad business was good or bad, but...

But that's the business you chose for your illustration.

> I didn't say that imploding ad business means privacy regulation is bad for small business, but ...

... you specifically talked about ad business alone and drew the conclusion that "big regulations create big business moats ... which demolish smaller businesses."

It's a good thing that GDPR destroyed ad business that existed only by selling user data without consent. And there's nothing big about GDPR. It's very small and easy to comply with.

If your business is built upon selling and profiting from user data without user's consent, good riddance. If not, GDPR doesn't affect you in the slightest.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by magduf on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @01:14PM (#20346328)
Yep, we see this in government contracting too: selling stuff to the government, or bidding on government contracts, means jumping through all kinds of crazy hoops. So small firms for the most part don't bother, and the only companies that do are ones (usually large ones) that are specialized for that task, but can't compete in the private sector, so people wonder why toilet seats cost $600. The only companies willing to sell toilet seats to the government and deal with the regulations are going to charge a fortune for it, and American Standard or Home Depot just don't bother.

(With the US government, it isn't just behemoth corporations; there's big incentives for some small firms too, so there's a bunch of tiny companies that are highly specialized in milking that gravy train.)

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by logfromblammo on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @04:56PM (#20348697)
Such as, for instance, a business 51% owned by a disabled, veteran, and Native American woman, that takes a percentage and then subcontracts all their work to a public company controlled by old, able-bodied, and white men.

Working the system yields better profit than doing the actual work.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by Semaphor on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @08:01AM (#20343485)
The whole GDPR thing was known years in advance and even smaller outfits would have had enough time to make changes.

An additional anecdote: we experimentally tried a smaller German ad exchange (used by quite some big-name sites here). Profits went way up compared to AdSense. What also went way up was the amount of stupid, low effort clickbait-bullshit (which as a non-lawyer I sometimes questioned the legality off considering some told outright lies). We stopped using them shortly afterward.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by bin0 on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @08:18AM (#20343615)
I'm really sorry to hear that google ads got even more, and now they're going to complain about a monopoly. Things like GDPR also make it harder to start a competitor, as paperwork and red tape always do; I have not personally worked on GDPR for any thing, but know some one who does and it's a nightmare.

If stringent government regulation got you here, maybe it will be less of that, not more, that gets you out.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by CaptainZapp on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @08:35AM (#20343727)
If stringent government regulation got you here, maybe it will be less of that, not more, that gets you out.

Yeah, we see how fantastically that one worked with the Boeing corporation and their newest flagship plane, The 737MAX.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by ggreer on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @12:30PM (#20345869)
The 737 MAX exists because it's so onerous to get government certification for a new airframe (and for governments to certify pilots on a new airframe). Boeing would love to ditch all the legacy cruft on the 737 and start from scratch, but doing so would not be cost-effective in today's regulatory environment.

The only reason this same issue didn't happen to Airbus is because the plane was high enough to give the pilots time to troubleshoot:

> The Alpha Protection activated forcing the aircraft to pitch down, which could not be corrected even by full back stick input. The crew eventually disconnected the related Air Data Units and was able to recover the aircraft.[1]

1. http://avherald.com/h?article=47d74074

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by thekyle on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @08:49PM (#20350534)
It is true from what I understand of the crashes that the MCAS system was created to comply with regulations.

Specifically it was created to comply with regulations surrounding a flight manoeuvre that would never actually occur on a real flight.

> Engineers determined that on the MAX, the force the pilots feel in the control column as they execute this maneuver would not smoothly and continuously increase. Pilots who pull back forcefully on the column — sometimes called the stick — might suddenly feel a slackening of resistance. An FAA rule requires that the plane handle with smoothly changing stick forces.

So, if those regulations had not existed then MCAS would not have been needed and the planes may not have crashed.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/the...

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by criley2 on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @09:54AM (#20344270)
Gotta love the uber-intellectual reply that any valid criticism of European regulation brings: "but WHATABOUT <this other unrelated case>"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by CaptainZapp on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @11:28AM (#20345113)
Other commenters pointed out with far more eloquence, why your accusation of absolutism is a pretty cheap rethoric trick.

But here's something else to chew on:

European regulations often benefit me, the individual, instead of corporations.

It guarantees that I don't pay 6$ a minute for a phone call from Tallinn to Tulouse. It ensures that I'm not ripped off 30 Euros for making an intereuropean money transfer, it provides my airline with a pretty good motivation not to bump me for fun and profit and it seems to work a lot better in the food safety department.

Granted, not all regulation is good regulation, but overall it seems more beneficial to society at large than to some scummy ad-tech business specifically.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by anoncake on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @10:11AM (#20344408)
It's not unrelated, it demonstrates that while unregulated markets may be a nice idea in theory, they just don't work in practice. Not that an analogy were necessary. The unregulated ad industry itself shows that an unregulated ad industry is a bad idea.
Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by ionised on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @10:34AM (#20344609)
Accusations of whataboutism are invalid when you are calling out related points or highlighting hypocrisy and double standards:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism#Criticism

Some commentators have defended the usage of whataboutism and tu quoque in certain contexts. Whataboutism can provide necessary context into whether or not a particular line of critique is relevant or fair. For instance, in international relations, behavior that may be imperfect by international standards may be quite good for a given geopolitical neighborhood, and deserves to be recognized as such.

Christian Christensen, Professor of Journalism in Stockholm, argues that the accusation of whataboutism is itself a form of tu quoque fallacy, as it dismisses criticisms of one's own behavior to focus instead on the actions of another, thus creating a double standard. Those who use whataboutism are not necessarily engaging in an empty or cynical deflection of responsibility: whataboutism can be a useful tool to expose contradictions, double standards, and hypocrisy.

Others have criticized the usage of accusations of whataboutism by American news outlets, arguing that the accusation whataboutism has been used to simply "deflect" criticisms of human rights abuses perpetrated by the United States or its allies. They argue that the usage of the term almost exclusively by American outlets is a double standard, and that moral accusations made by powerful countries are merely a pretext to punish their geopolitical rivals in the face of their own wrongdoing.

The scholars Kristen Ghodsee and Scott Sehon posit that mentioning the possible existence of victims of capitalism in popular discourse is often dismissed as 'whataboutism', which they describe as "a term implying that only atrocities perpetrated by communists merit attention." They also argue that such accusations of 'whataboutism' are invalid as the same arguments used against communism can also be used against capitalism.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by anoncake on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @10:07AM (#20344374)
> I hear that the european market for online advertising imploded

Good.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by TazeTSchnitzel on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @08:27AM (#20343655)
GDPR was supposed to kill surveillance adtech, and it is gradually doing its job. The regulators are not ignoring Google and friends and the enforcement actions will hurt them at some point.
Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by Broken_Hippo on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @11:45AM (#20345296)
Content filtering is draconian and fundamentally opposed to a free and open society.

Now, I'm not a supporter of current copyright laws as I think they are absolutely ridiculous as is, however, I disagree with your statement. It all depends on who is doing the filtering. Done correctly, content screening is a part of a free and open society. And with some care, sometimes it is required.

I am also going to assume that you are more referring to the entertainment industry than the "copyright industry" since the topic is content instead of, say, logos or toaster design.

If I had children, I'd really want age-appropriate filtering to be available and I understand someone wanting "wholesome" content for themselves. I simply don't want them choosing for me and I am not the one to choose for my spouse. In most cases, as long as I have control over what sorts of content filtering I'm good. I do think society should be free from rhetoric that puts others in danger (anti-vaxx) or that calls for dehumanizing or wiping out others or their religion in most cases (white supremacy, for example). I don't think we should be so open that our brains fall out, in other words.

But more to the point: All of that entertainment that was listed was made by someone. Likely many someones. So was the music people listen to in a store. And the art people look at in restaurants and people's homes.I completely understand people wanting to make money from their own work. When there is absolutely no screening, you get places that steal others work - music, art, entertainment, and so on - and make money from it. This might come in the form of making purses and coffee cups with art or someone getting taking your music and performing it for money. It is a real issue - and the "big industries" are not innocent of this. So yeah, if it is technologically possible for an entity to filter content based on these things, I can understand requiring it. Beethoven might not have been able to stop folks from memorising his music and playing it in a foreign land, but he would have had a chance with today's tech.

Content filtering itself isn't bad - and I post this on a site that filters content to a point - and it doesn't make the "copyright industry" bad. The copyright laws make the copyright stuff bad.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by toxik on Monday July 08, 2019 @08:40AM (#20382193)
I would be cautious about defending those that have, from those that do not. The general public does not have the kinds of money and resources that the copyright lobby does.

For that is the first point to counter your argument: the copyright industry is not mainly looking out for artists, it is looking out for itself and its benefactors. Ask any musician what percentages of royalties they get from their song, it's a joke at this point. Live performances are the sustenance of musical artists today.

That is not to say that I don't defend the rights of artists to their work; I do. But that isn't what this battle is about, this is a battle against the same industry that finds it pertinent to send out mass blackmail letters to families, to single mothers, to depressed people. It is surely going to be one of those things that we look back on in decades to come and go "what the f--- were we thinking?"

Finally, you have to take a wider view in these matters than saying "there is some configuration of content filtering that I find acceptable," because once you have content filtering laws in place, people who you disagree with can co-opt this into a totalitarian state. You do not know who will have the keys to the kingdom come tomorrow.

Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by jsilence on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @07:42AM (#20343374)
Self hosted, federated alternative: funkwhale.audio
Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by indigochill on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @08:07AM (#20343528)
Is the theory that this will be more resistant to copyright takedowns (given the talk about "sharing music with friends") because takedowns will have to be issued to individual pods?
Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by jakelazaroff on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @08:51AM (#20343846)
Does this pay artists? I can't find any mention of it on their website.
Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by sethhochberg on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @09:57AM (#20344290)
They claim to specialize in copyleft content, so almost certainly not. The cynic in me thinks that in practice it'll be a fancy frontend for everybody's BitTorrent downloads folder... with an archive.org downloader script for some plausible deniability.
Re:Spotify shuts down direct music uploading for independent... by raverbashing on Wednesday July 03, 2019 @07:54AM (#20343435)
While I don't think it's exclusively due to it, it is certainly a factor

A lot of independent artists supported art 13 though, let's see how they like this change