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Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by gmueckl on Saturday June 08, 2019 @09:42PM (#20136453)
So the trial period for the full version is over. Enjoy the features included in the standard license.

I get market segmentation and having optional features in a car. But most car companies don't actually integrate a seat heater if you didn't order one. Lugging the weight of the extra hardware for these features around but being blocked from using them at all feels wromg to me.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by sliken on Saturday June 08, 2019 @10:10PM (#20136566)
I can't talk percentages. But it's pretty common for most of the parts needed for an optional feature to be included. Things like wiring harneses for optional subwoofers, foglights, etc.

Heating pads start around $15.00 on amazon, seems easy to believe it's cheaper to make only seats with heating integrated instead of making two part numbers, doubling the overhead for seat inventory, make the assembly line more complex, making the order system more complex, documentation, testing, doubling the overhead for car inventory, handling additional order complexity etc.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by navigatesol on Sunday June 09, 2019 @07:23AM (#20138512)
>But it's pretty common for most of the parts needed for an optional feature to be included.

No, this isn't "pretty common". I've worked on a variety of automotive assembly lines and have never seen it. Why would you waste the money? It's trivial to not include parts you don't need, because the lines are designed that way.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by gmueckl on Sunday June 09, 2019 @08:13AM (#20138708)
Thinking about it some more, there must be a break even point. Having many configurations means a higher initial development, testing and tooling effort. This breaks even only if the savings per unit accumulate to offset that overhead. So Tesla might be big enough for serious automation, but not yet big enough for actual prodyct customization on the factory floor. Pure speculation, though.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by sliken on Sunday June 09, 2019 @11:00PM (#20143569)
I just looked up how to add fog lights to the Subaru forester without fog lights. Turns out you need the lights and the switch, and no wiring.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by SN76477 on Sunday June 09, 2019 @12:06AM (#20137055)
for all we know Tesla want to make on demand style manufacturing of vehicles possible.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by koala_man on Sunday June 09, 2019 @12:38AM (#20137147)
Car micropayments? "Don't freeze your butt off! Get an hour of warm seats for just $1.99"
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by Udik on Sunday June 09, 2019 @04:28AM (#20137957)
Somebody had foreseen this:

"The door refused to open. It said, “Five cents, please.” He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” he told the door. Again he tried the knob. Again it remained locked tight. “What I pay you,” he informed it, “is in the nature of a gratuity; I don’t have to pay you.” “I think otherwise,” the door said. “Look in the purchase contract you signed when you bought this conapt.” In his desk drawer he found the contract; since signing it he had found it necessary to refer to the document many times. Sure enough; payment to his door for opening and shutting constituted a mandatory fee. Not a tip. “You discover I’m right,” the door said. It sounded smug. From the drawer beside the sink Joe Chip got a stainless steel knife; with it he began systematically to unscrew the bolt assembly of his apt’s money-gulping door. “I’ll sue you,” the door said as the first screw fell out. Joe Chip said, “I’ve never been sued by a door. But I guess I can live through it."

Philip K. Dick, Ubik

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by samfisher83 on Sunday June 09, 2019 @01:30AM (#20137314)
They can do surge pricing during winter. Imagine you get in your car its freezing and maybe you would pay 10 dollars for the seat warmer. Or maybe you are almost out of range and then you get a pop up for 100 dollars we will unlock that last 20 miles. You already have airlines and Free to play games nickel and diming you to death.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by manicdee on Sunday June 09, 2019 @01:21AM (#20137291)
$2 the two times a year I need them versus $1000 for having them all the time?

Sold!

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by carlmr on Sunday June 09, 2019 @06:12PM (#20142268)
They're only $2 in summer. In winter they're $100 a pop.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by type0 on Sunday June 09, 2019 @11:38AM (#20139872)
Why use tesla then? Nissan is generous about this and allows anyone to turn the heat in your car over the internet

https://youtube-nocookie.com/embed/PP9DgLUBMUM?t=2832

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by AtHeartEngineer on Sunday June 09, 2019 @12:45AM (#20137177)
This is really intriguing to think about, black mirror season 6? (Haven't watched 5 yet, no spoilers)
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by dx7tnt on Sunday June 09, 2019 @04:48AM (#20138032)
Spoiler alert: compared to the other seasons, these ones are pretty crap and unengaging.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by gmueckl on Sunday June 09, 2019 @08:10AM (#20138695)
What do you mean by on demand style? German automotive factories build to order. Wvery car in the factory floor has its specific configuration and the companies have invested decades of effort into production processes that allow them to have the properly customized parts and subassemblies arrive on time and in the proper order at the production lane.

What could be better than this?

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by navigatesol on Sunday June 09, 2019 @07:26AM (#20138521)
>for all we know Tesla want to make on demand style manufacturing of vehicles possible.

How do you think modern JIT auto manufacturing works? And what if I told you that Tesla is, in fact, doing the opposite most of the time, by building in batches of cars and holding inventory? Why do we continue to attribute to Elon "inventions" that already exist?

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by eljimmy on Sunday June 09, 2019 @12:59AM (#20137213)
The Lexus IS300 and IS350 both have the exact same engine, only the 300 is detuned to not be as fast. You can do an after-market ECU tune and end up with the exact same performance as a 350.

I don't understand why they decided to make two models out of the same engine.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by shereadsthenews on Sunday June 09, 2019 @01:45AM (#20137366)
More powerful engines are less reliable. Motorcycle makers get twice the specific power out of their engines compared to cars, but the engines won't last 100k miles or even 50k and they require frequent major maintenance. Car buyers are no longer willing to ever have their car in the shop so most mainstream cars are very detuned. High-strung engines that need maintenance are a niche market.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by barrkel on Sunday June 09, 2019 @05:39AM (#20138175)
Almost all production motorcycle engines that aren't being raced and are getting regular oil changes will last 100k easily. The leading cause of motorcycle end of life is crashes, not engine failure.

As you go more esoteric, you need to rebuild the engine, replace piston rings, etc. But those bikes are either built for it (off road two strokes) or have the budget for it (racing). Still don't need to scrap the whole engine.

Perhaps oil changes counts as high maintenance. It can be a bit messy, but it's quick and cheap on most bikes. More time is spent oiling chains overall though.

Taiwan has drive through automated oil change machines that suck the oil out and fill up via a tube into the filler. Makes sense especially for <125cc scooters which do not normally have oil filters.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by rolleiflex on Sunday June 09, 2019 @02:47AM (#20137607)
Motorcycle engines are largely not scaled down car engines tuned for performance at the expense of reliability. They are designs built from scratch under different constraints. A mid-level motorcycle engine from a Japanese manufacturer should last longer than a mid-level car from a Japanese manufacturer, all else being equal.

There are motorcycles that you buy facing the near certainty that it will most likely outlive you, like KLR 650, or you can get a Ducati with a Desmosedici Stradale in it, where you have to get valves adjusted (major service) every 2500 miles. But given timely service, no motorcycle will last less than 50k miles, and most will last above 100 before an engine block rebuild.

Comparing cars to cars, or motorcycles to motorcycles, the logic holds though.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by xref on Sunday June 09, 2019 @05:03AM (#20138083)
Mid-level Japanese car engines can go waaay longer than 100k before an engine block rebuild. I had a Mazda 3 over 200k with no major service (A/C died...I left it dead)
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by mayamatrix on Monday June 10, 2019 @10:51AM (#20147255)
In Australia it's not uncommon for Toyota 22R engines to run for 400Kkm before needing a rebuild.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by magnat on Sunday June 09, 2019 @01:08AM (#20137237)
> I don't understand why they decided to make two models out of the same engine.

Increasing performance puts greater stress on the engine, increasing maintenance cost and/or failure rate. If engine breaks down before end of warranty, it's producer's cost.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by kirykl on Sunday June 09, 2019 @01:34AM (#20137326)
The IS350 used to share the same engine as a Toyota Sienna minivan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_GR_engine#2GR-FKS
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by segmondy on Sunday June 09, 2019 @01:23PM (#20140483)
Nothing new, tons of cars share engines. The same engine in the Sienna also powers the RX350.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by kirykl on Wednesday June 12, 2019 @08:46AM (#20163959)
No one said cars don’t share engines. OP is asking about why they make two models out of same engine.

This is an extreme example of it.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by Grazester on Sunday June 09, 2019 @01:16AM (#20137265)
Have been done for a really long time with car manufacturers.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by throw03172019 on Sunday June 09, 2019 @01:03AM (#20137227)
It does simplify manufacturing.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by paxys on Sunday June 09, 2019 @02:26AM (#20137526)
Manufacturing one single version of the hardware and then crippling the cheaper one is actually very common across cars, electronics and a lot of other consumer goods.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by jen729w on Sunday June 09, 2019 @08:10AM (#20138699)
I worked for Xerox 25 years ago.

The difference between the 18 page/min and the 45 page/min copier was a DIP switch and $10k.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by jjeaff on Sunday June 09, 2019 @04:32PM (#20141723)
There must have been quite a few people that figured out how to mod the copiers for themselves then, right?
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by disillusioned on Sunday June 09, 2019 @03:51AM (#20137833)
Hell, isn't the only difference between the normal and "K" Intel processors that the K is unlocked (and, I guess, binned?)

I remember there was an AMD chip that was similarly hobbled, that could be unlocked using a pencil line to jump a pin on the processor.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by wtallis on Sunday June 09, 2019 @04:27AM (#20137954)
In any given generation, Intel only makes 3-4 different consumer processor chips, and from those they derive dozens of models by selectively disabling features and limiting clock speeds. Sometimes the disabled capabilities are defective, but a lot of it is purely due to market segmentation. Intel even once sold software upgrade codes to unlock extra cache memory on some low-end processors, showing that all of those models had passed QA with the full cache, but shipped with a third or a quarter of it disabled.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by masonic on Sunday June 09, 2019 @02:57AM (#20137648)
IBM's mainframes used to use that strategy.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by detaro on Sunday June 09, 2019 @09:28AM (#20139047)
They still do that. Same with the POWER servers: you can buy one with "2 CPUs" that actually has more and then enable additional ones "on-demand".
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by jjeaff on Sunday June 09, 2019 @04:33PM (#20141727)
How do they activate them on demand? Does it require phoning home?
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by detaro on Sunday June 09, 2019 @04:36PM (#20141746)
Not sure, could also be just some locally checked license key you get from them if you buy the upgrade.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by antaviana on Sunday June 09, 2019 @05:38AM (#20138172)
I think they used hardware loops, not software loops, to reduce performance for the cheaper models.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by zanny on Sunday June 09, 2019 @02:47AM (#20137605)
What is common or normal does not make it right or ethical.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by kinkrtyavimoodh on Sunday June 09, 2019 @03:15AM (#20137702)
Why is it unethical? They are upfront about what you are paying for (or not paying for) and they are upfront about the hardware being present in the car.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by paxys on Sunday June 09, 2019 @02:52AM (#20137636)
What makes it unethical?
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by topmonk on Sunday June 09, 2019 @03:50AM (#20137831)
It turns the idea on its head that the price of something should be related to the cost of making it.

If there were a bunch of viable Tesla-like alternatives out there, they wouldn't be able to afford to leave in disabled features.

So, it's in essence exploiting their monopolistic position which is evil.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by brianwawok on Sunday June 09, 2019 @10:16AM (#20139330)
The cost of items is based on what you will pay, not what it cost to make. Capitalism 101.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by topmonk on Sunday June 09, 2019 @07:09PM (#20142507)
Unless you have a competitor making a nearly identical product. That's why I said it was exploitation of a monopolistic position. There is no other car company close to Tesla, so they get to pay these games.

Same as a chip manufacturer, say Intel, developing a process to make say 3x faster chips. But instead of releasing the fastest chip they could make, they titrate their new ability to the market over time. First a chip 50% faster, then 2x, etc., so they can milk the market.

I don't know about what you're willing to accept, but I don't like being treated like a farmer's cow.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by salawat on Sunday June 09, 2019 @03:37PM (#20141382)
>The cost of items is based on what you will pay...not what it cost to make.

So... Where's my 200 dollar car that costs 4000 to make?

Oh wait, did you mean

>The profit margin of an item is what value the customer is willing to pay over and on top of the cost of initial production + logistics of getting product to the final resales?

Because if you don't take that in to account, you only played enough attention to validate a worldview in which capitalism justifies unbounded exploitation.

Capitalism operates within specific bounds outside of which the axioms on which it is based cease to produce net positive effects for the health of the societal framework in which it operates based on it's tendency to inequitably partition the fundamental means of exchange without active measures in place in order to ensure that the majority of capital continues exchanging hands instead of languishing in accounts chasing after opportunities for growth rendered nigh-impossible to find once a "winner" is established by conservative investment strategies in most industrial verticals, and that winner optimized beyond the reach of meaningful competition by new entrants.

You'll then end up in repetitive cycles of boom and bust as too much capital chases too few opportunities for growth; all the while with the financial industry converging toward whatever form is most able to avoid current regulatory controls.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by rz2k on Sunday June 09, 2019 @04:15PM (#20141614)
Most of these cost more than $4,000 to make: https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/cta?min_price=200&max_pr...

Some design or manufacturing flaws can lead to auto makers paying someone to dispose of an otherwise brand new car. Sometimes, such as when they've poorly forecast demand, selling their inventory at a loss is a smaller loss than paying for disposal. Other times they will destroy functioning, new vehicles if that's what's necessary to maximize total revenue.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by salawat on Sunday June 09, 2019 @05:48PM (#20142160)
With Craigslist you're generally not looking at a good representation of the "well-equipped or dispositioned" seller; and given the market in the SF Bay area, you're optimizing for one of the highest friction automotive ownership locales in the United States.

If anything you're Also to a degree proving my point on the market at large being skewed toward larger actors; as the capability of the "new entrant" to extract value from the market is significantly diminished. Get that same car to a dealership, and they might even be able to extract even more value for it.

Also, if you're taring the sale at last seller, that's not entirely fair. First sale is what we're discussing, generally represented by first change of hands after factory->reseller.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by jjeaff on Sunday June 09, 2019 @04:36PM (#20141737)
Regulations like emissions limits can also cause this. GM has supposedly been know to sell some of its electrics at a loss simply to help meet the ratio requirements of the EPA so they can sell more big vehicles.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by salawat on Sunday June 09, 2019 @05:56PM (#20142196)
Again, this is a consequence of the statement I made before regarding

>the financial industry converging on whichever form most effectively sidesteps the current regulatory regime.

I should probably have phrased it to industry in general, but regardless, I stand by my original point. The automotive industry accepts taking a loss through sub-optimal implementations of regulatorally incentivized models in order to optimize on the most profitable model segment.

Capitalism will converge in the direction of a net negative naturally without active efforts to reign in it's tendency toward fiscal optimization at all costs.

I'm not even being controversial and saying socialism/Marxism is the way. (They aren't; in case anyone is wondering). I'm just pointing out what actually happens.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by philwelch on Sunday June 09, 2019 @05:23AM (#20138139)
“The first car company that truly understands software!” As if that were a good thing. Sheesh.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by walrus01 on Sunday June 09, 2019 @04:05AM (#20137872)
> But most car companies don't actually integrate a seat heater if you didn't order one. Lugging the weight of the extra hardware for these features around but being blocked from using them at all feels wromg to me.

I think they've learned from Juniper's licensing model for routers. They ship with all the hardware, but are reliant on license keys for full ability. Go look up the licensed versions of an mx204 for instance. Not something I'm a fan of.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by csomar on Sunday June 09, 2019 @06:35AM (#20138351)
> But most car companies don't actually integrate a seat heater if you didn't order one.

Nope they do, and it is more common than you think. I become aware of this while on my friend Ford Fiesta as he enabled some features which were not available even in the most expensive model. It was a "wtf" moment. Until I realized that my car (mazda 3) does have features disabled by the seller. I just was too lazy to research unlocking them and doing it.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by navigatesol on Sunday June 09, 2019 @07:33AM (#20138559)
>I become aware of this while on my friend Ford Fiesta as he enabled some features which were not available even in the most expensive model.

As someone who has owned a Fiesta, and worked on a Ford auto assembly manufacturing line, I'd love to see some evidence of this. What features are you talking about? Because, having actually built seats for Ford, I know that they explicitly did not include heaters when they were not ordered. It was trivial to just not include the part; the assembly line was designed that way. You simply grabbed one cushion set vs another. Most auto manufacturers are actually concerned about margins and costs, so these things matter.

Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by csomar on Sunday June 09, 2019 @07:41AM (#20138584)
Don’t have the full list but the couple on my head were automatic wipers, and automatic rear view mirrors closing/opening.
Re:Tesla will soon downgrade software on the entry-level Mod... by wolfi1 on Sunday June 09, 2019 @12:34AM (#20137136)
sounds like the Golden Screwdriver from IBM