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Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by xena on Friday May 24, 2019 @06:52AM (#20000219)
Good. This kind of software is a mirror to the data fed into it. People on the edges of society (that the people making the mirror might either intentionally or accidentally ignore) will get fucked over tremendously by this technology. We should put a complete ban on it. Even if it means gimping my photo organization programs.
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by dsfyu404ed on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:39AM (#20000468)
I fully agree with your sentiment but I don't agree with a ban. Prohibition doesn't work. You should be able to use it but the legal risks and liability you open yourself up to by using it should be strong enough to deter its use except when there truly is no substitute. Asbestos comes to mind as an example. People (often on HN) often run in circles and scream about the sky falling because "OMG it's not banned" but the reality is that the court of public opinion has basically ruled it is not ok to use. That's how I want to see facial recognition tech and other tech that enables corporations and governments to stalk people at scale treated
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by rmrfrmrf on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:38AM (#20000814)
> Prohibition doesn't work

You're appropriating sociological behaviors of the individual to maxims at the corporate level, which is ridiculous. Corporations need to be regulated, not coddled in some kind of convoluted, scaled-up, harm-reduction policy.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by dsfyu404ed on Friday May 24, 2019 @09:36AM (#20001275)
Public opinion is what ultimately is the determining factor here. If the public does not strongly want to punish companies for doing something then the government will not be successful at punishing companies for doing something. In a democracy government follows public opinion. In the absence of strong public opinion you get corporate interests shaping what government does.

Yeah, sure, ban it. But without social consensus backing up those laws it will have no teeth in practice.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by ghostDancer on Friday May 24, 2019 @10:04AM (#20001587)
Amen to that. And public opinion is easily manipulated. Create fear and people will give up their rights , if someone resists accuse them of being anti-freedom, anti-patriotic, against the free market, communist/socialist, helping terrorists,etc. Use the media which is owned by the same people politicians protect and in no time most of the population will comply
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by xena on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:46AM (#20000877)
For instance, I am transgender. This kind of technology would allow them to identify "masculine" features of my face that I didn't ask for. This could cause me to be profiled as male, regardless of what my court order or personal preferences say.

This kind of technology is fundamentally dangerous to people who do not fit cleanly into the rigid caste-like boxes that are used to categorize people.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by chr1 on Friday May 24, 2019 @01:04PM (#20003437)
This is equivalent to asking to ban glasses to prevent short-sighted people from identifying "masculine" features. If people can learn to handle the information they see, they can teach the same to the algorithms they use. So while i agree that there are dangers, i can't agree that banning face recognition is the solution to that.
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by asdkhadsj on Friday May 24, 2019 @09:39AM (#20001305)
It's almost ironic that we're progressing through a social evolution where we have to have conversations with people to understand their desired pronoun; while at the same time developing software that will suffer the same fate. Appearances mean nothing, but that's all (this) software can use.

Perhaps a small badge with visual friendly metadata would be handy. Not that we need to give them more information of course, just thinking out loud. The idea of everyone walking around with a little badge on their chest containing their metadata is oddly dystopian haha.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by supahfly_remix on Friday May 24, 2019 @09:43AM (#20001335)
> The idea of everyone walking around with a little badge on their chest containing their metadata is oddly dystopian haha.

This idea was tried before, but for just a subset of the population, though: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_concentration_camp_badge

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by jfk13 on Friday May 24, 2019 @10:33AM (#20001939)
FWIW, it's started appearing on conference badges in some circles: Name, affiliation, role, pronouns.
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by asdkhadsj on Friday May 24, 2019 @02:40PM (#20004178)
That's a bit dramatic to my comment, imo. You could say the same for police, or any institution that uses identifying information - even uniforms.

Like it or not we all have piles of metadata that follow us around. A big one is our face. It won't take long for facial recognition to do the same thing I mentioned in the previous post; except you won't have a choice then. Hell, you won't even know.

The metadata badge idea was of course not serious; but it doesn't seem so farfetched to me or absolutely terrible. It (as I proposed it), at least, would be something you controlled.

Which, unlike state IDs, licenses or Nazi' camp badges are not something you would control.

I do not appreciate the extreme association with a free-thought idea to that of the worst massacre in history. I'll assume you meant no harm, but still - I figured I had to at least express clarification.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by therealdrag0 on Friday May 24, 2019 @02:17PM (#20003994)
Is there any intention of using cameras to categorize people as opposed to just looking for specific criminals that are on the loose? What would be gained by categorizing you as a male or not?

I.e, someone robs a bank, their face is captured, get an alert when they are seen else where.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by lostgame on Friday May 24, 2019 @09:04AM (#20001004)
Omigosh, thank you for mentioning this! I am also transgender and had never even considered the implications of this.
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by WeirdFlexButOky on Friday May 24, 2019 @09:05AM (#20001006)
+1 from another trans woman
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by asdkhadsj on Friday May 24, 2019 @09:35AM (#20001268)
Pardon the ignorant question, but is there an accepted "standard" for pronouns when someone identifies themself as you did?

Which is to say, if you say you're a "trans woman", am I able to infer that your desired gender pronoun is female?

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by delecti on Friday May 24, 2019 @01:47PM (#20003762)
> Which is to say, if you say you're a "trans woman", am I able to infer that your desired gender pronoun is female?

Yes, this is indeed a generally safe assumption. View "trans" like any other self-descriptive adjective. "I'm a tall woman", vs "I'm a trans woman". It's not an absolute given, because nothing is black and white (some might prefer gender neutral pronouns), but generally safe.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by xena on Friday May 24, 2019 @10:33AM (#20001942)
The best way to know for sure is to ask them instead of making any assumptions.
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by somatic on Friday May 24, 2019 @01:34PM (#20003659)
Truly we have transcended parody.
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by Frondo on Friday May 24, 2019 @09:56AM (#20001491)
I'm not trans but have several trans friends, and just wanted to add (as a non-trans person), make a best guess for how someone presents and if they correct you, do not joke about it. No jokes, no extra comments, Just say, "sorry, got it," and move on. It's a matter of respect and nothing more, and if you respect someone, it's easy to show it. Making a joke about something that's important (and possibly sensitive) to someone is just a bad start.
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by pistacchioman on Friday May 24, 2019 @05:16PM (#20005345)
I don't think it's necessary to be so careful. If they can't take a joke I don't wanna hang out with them.
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by Pinckney on Friday May 24, 2019 @11:47AM (#20002742)
You would use she/her pronouns for trans women, and he/him pronouns for trans men. Just treat trans women as you would any other woman, and trans men as you would any other man.

Generally people who prefer neutral pronouns will identify as nonbinary, genderqueer, or perhaps transmasculine or transfeminine, (although not all people who so identify prefer neutral pronouns) and you might need to ask them for their preference.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by moate on Friday May 24, 2019 @10:11AM (#20001677)
Counterpoint: How many cloned humans have we seen?

Prohibition works when the barrier to entry is higher. Any mook with some yeast and sugar can make alcohol. Pot grows just about anywhere (which is why they call it weed). But not a lot of people are privately developing nuclear bombs or cloning humans.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by filoleg on Friday May 24, 2019 @01:41PM (#20003717)
Arguably, the barrier to entry for facial recognition software (or almost any software, for that matter) is way lower than for developing nuclear bombs or cloning humans. Of course it won't be production level of big corps, but a group of less than 5 engineers can definitely hack up a facial recognition software that works fairly decently with only ramen money and a bit of AWS credits.
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by stared on Friday May 24, 2019 @09:48AM (#20001406)
As a person with prosopagnosia (vide http://web.archive.org/web/20080704154655/http://www.prosopa...), I would love to have personal software for recognizing people.

At the same time, I am aware of the dangers of people doing it for commercial purposes (on so many levels!).

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by jasonlotito on Friday May 24, 2019 @10:25AM (#20001848)
It's things like this that always make me think twice about banning things. Many people look at something as useless, wasteful, or bad, but to other people, it really does help people with certain conditions. So when you outright declare something is dumb or should be banned, I generally find these people to generally be ignorant about all the technology does, and it's just a knee-jerk reaction.

This is not to say they don't have good reasons for not liking a technology. Rather, that tend to not know all sides for something.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by JamesAdir on Friday May 24, 2019 @10:38AM (#20001994)
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by stared on Friday May 24, 2019 @10:45AM (#20002066)
Interesting.

Does it work? (Any reviews, since it's past its release date?)

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by toephu2 on Friday May 24, 2019 @12:39PM (#20003234)
You have never been a victim of a crime have you?

I'm pretty sure if you were, and the crime was caught on camera, your position on facial-recognition software would change.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by ashelmire on Friday May 24, 2019 @12:50PM (#20003329)
Or you'll just get harassed more as a black person[1].

Funny enough (actually the opposite of funny), the systems used by law enforcement are designed to create more false positives, which then leaves it up to law enforcement to decide which "leads" to follow up on. This will certainly be used to validate abusive behavior.

Additionally, facial recognition is used in some countries right now to silence political dissidents[2]. If you think that can't or won't happen in the US, I'd suggest you look at how activists have been treated in the past (beaten, arrested, and sometimes killed).

1. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/09/technology/facial-recogni...

2. https://www.eff.org/pages/face-recognition

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by Barrin92 on Friday May 24, 2019 @03:16PM (#20004503)
>I'm pretty sure if you were, and the crime was caught on camera, your position on facial-recognition software would change.

yes, but likely in the wrong direction because I'd be angry and personally insecure. Decisions of liberty, privacy and law shouldn't be based on personal experiences or trauma.

I find this line of argument weird. Do you really think a personal decision about long term social issues is better than an impersonal one?

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by diafygi on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:01AM (#20000248)
Just so I have good arguments when talking to someone about this specific point, can you or someone else please go into more detail on why this will happen?
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by lazyvoice on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:45AM (#20000506)
For example, let's assume you live in Brunei where homosexuality is a capital crime. Facial-recognition (especially in concert with other pattern-recognition software) drastically reduces the man-power necessary to identify individuals for enforcement.

If you're talking to someone who's more conservatively inclined I'd talk about how Iceland has managed to basically eliminate Down Syndrome. Prenatal pattern recognition has successfully convinced nearly all Icelandic parents who have a pregnancy where the child may have Down Syndrome to abort.

If your listener doesn't care about gay rights AND thinks any fetus with a higher likelihood of having Down Syndrome should be aborted, then they're probably exactly the sort of people working on or hoping to use these tools.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by mnw21cam on Friday May 24, 2019 @09:12AM (#20001064)
Okay, I see your Down Syndrome point, and raise you Autism/Asperger Syndrome. Alright, there isn't currently a test that would enable people with Autism/Asperger Syndrome to be systematically aborted, but it isn't so hard to imagine a future where it would be possible. Given the high proportion of people in this forum with these conditions, how do we feel about this?
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by phissk on Friday May 24, 2019 @09:19AM (#20001119)
Please note that you're not aborting 'people' ... just a thing that might become a person.

You're giving (actual) people the opportunity to choose to have healthier families.

- Note that I say 'healthier families' specifically because willfully passing on genetic features that disadvantage your children burdens not just them but your entire family unit.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by danShumway on Friday May 24, 2019 @10:18AM (#20001767)
This still caries an uncomfortable implication that Downs and Autism are inherently negative traits, and that people who have them would be better off not having existed in the first place.

Depending on where you fall on the fetal personhood debate, preventing someone from existing is much better than killing them. But that doesn't mean the choice can't reveal negative things about society's overall attitudes towards people in those groups. If you're a member of one of these groups, it feels bad to have someone tell you that a fundamental part of your personality is something that ought to be eliminated from society in general.

And of course autistic people and their families often have hard lives, but a large portion of that difficulty comes from social and infrastructure problems. We're not good at building societies that are easy for differently abled people to interact with.

I want to make an analogy that should hopefully make the problem more clear. It's easy to make a case that being gay or transgender socially disadvantages both a person and their overall family unit. Raising a transgender child is going to be harder than raising someone that conforms to strict gender-rules -- you're going to have a few difficult conversations, and you're going to fight with a few systems, and you're occasionally going to have to deal with jerks telling you you've messed up your kid. None of this is right or fair, and we're getting a little bit better, but it's still a problem.

If there was a way to detect someone's future sexual orientation and identity in the womb, would you be comfortable allowing families to make abortion decisions based on that information? If that technology had existed in the 1980s where being transgender was even harder than it is today, would you have been comfortable with it being used then? Would gay and transgender rights have made the kind of progress we've seen if that technology had been available and unregulated?

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by phissk on Friday May 24, 2019 @12:14PM (#20003016)
Whether it be autism or sexual orientation, it seems even more wrong to choose to have a child with something that will disadvantage them just to bolster the numbers of the other people already in the world being unfairly discriminated against.

Given that in this scenario there are two potential children; the one with undesirable_trait_x, and the replacement without it, and one will come into existence and one will not, as a parent, shouldn't you pick the child that will have the happiest life rather than the one that will better serve as canon-fodder in someones ideological crusade?

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by danShumway on Friday May 24, 2019 @02:36PM (#20004152)
Well, from a purely social perspective, the answer is pretty obviously no -- we have a vested interest in increasing social diversity for the same reasons we have a vested interest in increasing genetic diversity. And the ability to widely eliminate qualities that society deems undesirable on a whim will almost definitely lead towards increased homogeneity and worse social outcomes in general for anyone who has a trait that can't be eliminated.

However, I'm guessing you're actually talking about morality on an individual level -- that it's immoral for an individual parent not to try and guarantee their future child the happiest possible life. The problem is that even though being autistic is hard, having a hard life doesn't necessarily mean having a bad life. Being autistic is hard because autistic people are different, not because autism is inherently an undesirable trait.

Not everyone who is autistic or who has Downs would, if given the chance, flip a switch and erase that part of their personality, and they bristle at the "happy life" argument because they see it as (intentionally or not) just another way for people to imply, "differently abled people will always lead less satisfying lives." See also the controversy in the deaf community over hearing aids, which are a much less dicey proposition than eugenics but still prompt heated arguments sometimes.

As a side note, it's worth mentioning that no one is talking about artificially increasing the number of differently abled people as some kind of "recruitment strategy". Opponents to this kind of genetic selection are talking about just removing that characteristic as a determining factor entirely. It's not any different than banning sex-selective abortions, which is already an entirely normal and relatively uncontroversial policy in multiple developed countries.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by mistersquid on Friday May 24, 2019 @09:45AM (#20001361)
The problem lies within the generalizations presented by the words “healthier” and “burdens”.

Many families with Downs children describe how much joy and love their Downs children bring to the family, how the family members learned to cherish what’s important in life, etc.

These families compared to many families with non-Downs children are quite healthy and arguably not burdened though they experience different challenges than other families.

EDIT: fix quote; change last preposition in second sentence.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by lazyvoice on Friday May 24, 2019 @11:55AM (#20002814)
I posted the original example to demonstrate that skepticism IRT abstracting pattern based decision making away from human actors transcends political leanings.

While I personally am not entirely sure how I feel about this sort of eugenics, it's worth noting that at the gestational period these genetic anomalies are detected it's far more likely that these fetuses would progress to develop legal personhood than not.

Given our species history of reliance on anomalous individuals I suspect it's unwise to seek further genetic homogenization and better for us to learn to accept those who don't neatly fit societal norms of fitness.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by donohoe on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:09AM (#20000280)
Not specific to facial recognition but covers it and the deeper issues. It is a thorough yet accessible primer on the many ways bias can creep into these systems:

https://parametric.press/issue-01/the-myth-of-the-impartial-...

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by masklinn on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:16AM (#20000325)
As @pinboard noted back in the dark ages of 2016, "machine learning is money laundering for bias".
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by paganel on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:13AM (#20000306)
Not the OP by technology like this will explicitly make racial profiling legal again, because the power that be will hide behind the decisions taken by algorithms: “The computer told us to stop and search this black person’s car, it wasn’t us, the computer is smart, we were just following the computer’s orders”.
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by chr1 on Friday May 24, 2019 @01:14PM (#20003499)
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by bumby on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:41AM (#20000834)
I heard this referred to recently as the "automation fallacy"
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by xena on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:48AM (#20000894)
As a transgender woman, this is my fear precisely.
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by trevyn on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:16AM (#20000324)
Along the lines of “everyone is breaking some law”, there could be a shift from “technically illegal but generally harmless and tolerated” to “illegal and mindlessly enforced by automated technology”.

An example being China’s automated jaywalking-shamer.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by mc32 on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:57AM (#20000588)
The only “good” outcome of this is we get to know how pervasive surveillance affects behavior and whether the benefits outweigh the detriments. In other words does it result in a better or worse society overall. Even if it’s better overall I’d it worth the negative effects on affected populations?

It’s a living laboratory.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by homonculus1 on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:54AM (#20000930)
The benefits would have to be impossibly valuable to outweigh the constant burden and psychological damage of living in a totalitarian panopticon.

Given that society functions without it and is constantly improving anyway--crime rates, poverty, mortality continue to drop from socioeconomic and technological development without the need for the intervention of pervasive surveillance--I personally literally cannot conceive of a benefit that would actually be worth it.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by mc32 on Friday May 24, 2019 @09:01AM (#20000980)
True, I do not see it turning out well. But it would be a laboratory into behavioral control. Something like this would eliminate needs for safe spaces, anti/hate speech, etc. because this would regulate all this anti social behavior in the first place.
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by bryanrasmussen on Friday May 24, 2019 @07:41AM (#20000479)
There have been numerous issues where corpora of peoples faces have been insufficiently stocked with a particular racial group, in such cases people's faces might not register as faces and therefore be shut out of whatever the facial recognition is supposed to implement.

For example facial recognition at a high priced building, suddenly non-white people can't get in because you did not show a real face at the scanner. Sorry, it's a bug not a feature.

The same problem would of course apply to anyone with facial deformities etc.

The problem would be essentially of two forms - Automatic exclusion from a group by facial feature, or automatic inclusion in a group by facial feature.

Think of the automatic inclusion as advanced phrenology or other sort of woo, in this scenario company X sells the idea that they will have facial recognition of 'criminal types' based on whatever research they can pull out that criminals often correspond in appearance. Then they fill that corpus up with criminals which then is a nice self-selecting system of find the black/hispanic person and deny them the job, loan etc. because of likelihood for crime past the threshold set.

the reason why this would happen is the same reason why banks used to deny loans to people in certain zip codes, because by doing so they could be racially profiling and excluding but pretend not to do so.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by mc32 on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:25AM (#20000736)
>”corpora of peoples faces have been insufficiently stocked with a particular racial group, in such cases people's faces might not register as faces..”

I’m not sure this is s good argument against the technology because there is a solution to this objection: they’ll improve it and ensure every face type is comparably recognized. It should be rejected on more basic principles.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by rmrfrmrf on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:47AM (#20000882)
It's not as simple as "just make sure it works on everyone". Even if it were physically possible to capture the face of all 7 billion people on Earth, you'd start running into issues of false positives/negatives, overfitting, etc., and furthermore it would basically require every person to be periodically scanned from birth until death to ensure that the algorithm can recognize new faces.
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by mc32 on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:53AM (#20000926)
This is a different objection than the original objection. (effective accuracy vs specific bias).

With a pervasive system, unless people are hermits, they’ll get scanned periodically, and with other bits of information the changed face can be correlated with the same person (I go into a salon looking one way, come out different, go into a boxing match, come out different, but I’m following my routine and go to the same subway stop and convenience store and use the same payment method, etc.)

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by xboxnolifes on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:54AM (#20000928)
And then you just have a different implementation of China's social credit surveillance system...
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by bryanrasmussen on Friday May 24, 2019 @09:08AM (#20001039)
there are of course examples of technologies that do not work for their stated purpose, but I think in general technologies do work pretty much for their stated purposes if people can use the technology correctly.

Generally the arguments against a technology is not that the technology does not work for its purpose, but that the way humans will use it is problematic.

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by povertyworld on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:48AM (#20000897)
The problem with an "it's racist" strawman is that all the people selling this stuff have to do is frame it so NOT using it is racist. I don't think it would be hard to argue that a face scan is going to have less implicit bias than a poorly trained security guard or bored cop working overtime. So maybe it's racist to not use facial recognition, since that leaves room for human prejudice.
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by Loughla on Friday May 24, 2019 @10:20AM (#20001792)
How does software not leave room for human prejudice? Who decides what data is used to feed the thing?
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by povertyworld on Friday May 24, 2019 @12:08PM (#20002958)
Who decides what face unlocks your iPhone? When you buy a million dollar condo, you decide whose faces you want to unlock it. That way it's not up to some security guard to decide whether to detain your kid in the lobby because he's wearing baggy clothes and didn't style his hair in a way that the guard likes. His face either scans or it doesn't.
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by thfuran on Friday May 24, 2019 @11:14AM (#20002369)
My good buddy HAL 9000.
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by rmrfrmrf on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:56AM (#20000942)
Many mortgage backing companies still routinely deny loans to black people because their models inversely correlate black homeowners to lower surrounding property values. When a mortgage backer also backs the loans of those same surrounding properties, the risk of losing money on their existing loans increases, thereby leading them to deny the loan and perpetuating racist policy from a so-called "objective" model-driven business decision.
Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by bumby on Friday May 24, 2019 @08:40AM (#20000824)
Are there organizations that provide validation standards for this type of software?

I'm thinking something analogous to ASME for mechanical systems. Or is the technology still very much in the wild west phase?

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by mr_toad on Friday May 24, 2019 @09:21PM (#20006568)
> We should put a complete ban on it.

Both my phone and my PS4 use facial recognition for login. I don’t want that banned.

My camera can be set up to take a photo when it detects someone in the frame. Very useful for selfies. Are you going to ban that too.

Are you going to ban Tensorflow. Keras? SciKit-learn?

If I hand code my own neural net, are you going to ban that as well?

Re:America is turning against facial-recognition software by vangelis on Friday May 24, 2019 @10:47PM (#20006814)
I disagree with a complete ban, but we could ban wide-scale implementation of this. You are not a municipality.